Is This a Feasible Commute?

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Heavy Weather

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Heavy Weather
Hey PoA,

I'm blessed to find myself in a conundrum; I'd greatly appreciate your collective input/expertise.

I'm in negotiations for a job that will require me to spend a substantial amount of time in rural Wyoming (KPOY >>> KCOD). Currently, I live in Seattle with my wife and two young kids. We really love it here and have been planning around raising our kids here.

Northern Wyoming is a wonderful place, but you can imagine that the recalibration might be a little rough. I'd love it (I grew up in the rural South) and the kids would have a blast. My wife on the other hand...:eek: :lol: :no:

However, the increase in pay would be substantial (potentially 200-300% of my current salary, which itself is a blessing). Material possessions mean nothing to us, but taking this job would mean fully-funded college and retirement plans within 5-8 years. Naturally, I'm tempted.

I'm wondering if a long-range commute between Seattle and Powell might possibly work. The gist would be one week-long trip per month, plus a two-month trip each summer.

In more detail, I think I can swing an arrangement where I'm on-site continuously in summer (when kids are out of school and family can travel with me), with the balance split 75:25 between telecommuting and on-site work. I should also have considerable flexibility in terms of when I'm actually present, so long as it's roughly one week/month. I'm reasonably sure that my wife and kids would be okay with this. (I'd hate to be away so much, but it might be a worthwhile sacrifice.)

My plan would be to fly commercial into Cody for the first year or so (no direct flights from Seattle to Cody and certainly not to Powell) while getting PPL/IFR, and finding/purchasing my first plane. I would be in no rush to start flying for myself, but I've always wanted to be a pilot and would appreciate the control/flexibility of being able to transport myself directly (as opposed to a 5-hour one-stop flight plus 40 minute drive, each way).

I have no prior flight experience, but I'm trainable, meticulous, healthy, calm under pressure, and have a pristine driving record. I would definitely have sufficient time and disposable income to devote to "doing this right."

Ultimately, the plan would be to own something practical (e.g., lightly used 206 or equivalent), hangar/tie in KBFI <--> KPOY, refueling in Spokane each way. Fallback plan in case of nasty weather would be commercial air + rental car; and again, I can usually work remotely in a pinch.

My questions:

1) Is this scenario plausible, or is there an obvious logistical deal-breaker that I'm not seeing?
2) Can a novice pilot (with IFR training and a well-maintained 182/206/whatever) tackle this type of route? It's foggy as hell here, windy as hell there, and with all kinds of big pointy snow-covered things in between.
3) What other questions should I be asking myself, my family, and my future employer?

Thanks in advance.
 
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I'd want a FIKI plane for that one.

That's also not the most forgiving route.

I'd be apt to move to WY, not sure how WA is going to be with that $15 min wage debacle.
 
I would suggest you speak with pilots in your area who regularly fly over The Cascades. I have friends who do and their plans are regularly foiled by "The Ice Witch" regardless of the season. Recommended for a novice? NO WAY!

The other side of the coin is your wife might enjoy small town living after she sees the benefits.
 
Fesaible perhaps if you were an airline captain with lots of time and a nice twin. Otherwise I'd say move there.
 
I agree with the others -- on that route, icing will get you unless you have an icing-capable aircraft and know how to use it.
 
A 210 would be a good choice.

A turbine 210 would be better if you can swing it.
 
...aaaaaand...this is exactly why I came to you guys.

For now, this commute idea (at least from Seattle) sounds like a non-starter.

Relocation is going to be a very tough sell, but I can definitely handle the commercial commute given what's at stake.

I'll pursue flight training regardless (like I said, I've always been interested),

Thanks for your input, everyone. I would've arrived at the same conclusion during my due diligence, but you saved me tons of time.
 
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Relocation becomes an easier sell with $$$$, but I would try to sell them on beautiful country side, tranquility, open space, yet oh so close to modern living.

close is relative
 
I cannot comment on GA for that route, but would a RV (the type you live in) work? Solves your room and board problem once you are at the work site too.
 
gitmo234 said:
Relocation becomes an easier sell with $$$$, but I would try to sell them on beautiful country side, tranquility, open space, yet oh so close to modern living.

close is relative
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I hear you, but she's a city girl. I think we can compromise by relocating to Spokane. That puts me on the correct side of the Cascades, at least.
 
James331 said:
A 210 would be a good choice.

A turbine 210 would be better if you can swing it.
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Gee thanks. Never heard of a turbine 210. Googled, then YouTubed, then Trade-A-Planed, and an hour later I'm back here. :mad2:

Cool plane though!
 
Heavy Weather said:
I hear you, but she's a city girl. I think we can compromise by relocating to Spokane. That puts me on the correct side of the Cascades, at least.
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If things are as you say, maybe she would be willing to make some accommodation on a short-term basis? If the money is right and you can set up a citified retirement earlier than otherwise, can you sell it on that basis?
 
You will want a FIKI SR22T for that mission. I love mine. Best decision I have made so far!
 
No one ever asks about a 100nm commute over flat terrain? (Ok that's not true, we did have that thread about a Bay Area commute).

This is a tough commute. Distance, high mountains, ice, and IMC. Not a real good combination for GA unless you have a lot of flexibility, or a very well equipped aircraft. Good luck with your decision!
 
Try commuting by the airlines rental car,see if you like the new job. Then make a decision. I would want a Fiki airplane as a minimum .
 
gitmo234 said:
Relocation becomes an easier sell with $$$$, but I would try to sell them on beautiful country side, tranquility, open space, yet oh so close to modern living.

close is relative
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Yup, only 30 years or so removed from modern living...
 
No suggestions on the commute, but make sure as you plan to spend some of your hard earned money that you take into account income taxes. The more you make, the harder you get pounded, losing most write-offs and deductions plus AMT, it adds up. I hope it works out for you.
 
Heavy Weather said:
...aaaaaand...this is exactly why I came to you guys.

For now, this commute idea (at least from Seattle) sounds like a non-starter.

Relocation is going to be a very tough sell, but I can definitely handle the commercial commute given what's at stake.

I'll pursue flight training regardless (like I said, I've always been interested),

Thanks for your input, everyone. I would've arrived at the same conclusion during my due diligence, but you saved me tons of time.
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Plan on Airlines, after you get a license, then summer, fall flying might work with airline backup if weather sours on you.
 
PaulS said:
No suggestions on the commute, but make sure as you plan to spend some of your hard earned money that you take into account income taxes. The more you make, the harder you get pounded, losing most write-offs and deductions plus AMT, it adds up. I hope it works out for you.
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Yeah, we already get pounded at tax time. (Regrettably, I never served in the military, so I like to think that I'm doing my best to fund it instead. :thumbsup:) Neither WA or WY has a state income tax, so at least that's a lateral move.

Anyways, Seattle seems like the deal-breaker. I've bagged my share of Cascade summits, but I prefer a methodical, upward, boot-propelled approach as opposed to an impromptu horizontal route :eek:.

But would Spokane-Cody/Powell be doable after 1-2 years of training (with IFR) in a 182/206, or do I still need FIKI flying into Northern Wyoming?

Thanks again for all your help, gang.
 
Move:to wY get your license and a plane and visit the coast when the weather permits.
 
Heavy Weather said:
Yeah, we already get pounded at tax time. (Regrettably, I never served in the military, so I like to think that I'm doing my best to fund it instead. :thumbsup:) Neither WA or WY has a state income tax, so at least that's a lateral move.

Anyways, Seattle seems like the deal-breaker. I've bagged my share of Cascade summits, but I prefer a methodical, upward, boot-propelled approach as opposed to an impromptu horizontal route :eek:.

But would Spokane-Cody/Powell be doable after 1-2 years of training (with IFR) in a 182/206, or do I still need FIKI flying into Northern Wyoming?

Thanks again for all your help, gang.
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Wyoming mountains (along with Idaho and Montana) can be interesting during winter which lasts from October until May or so. Mountain Obscuration is the term and it is frequent. Do not mess around with it in a spam can (little airplane like I fly).

If you have some flexibility, say two or three days worth then flights through the mountains can usually be managed. If you have to be there on a particular day then you will end up driving frequently. Spoke-to-Cody, well, check the map...and keep in mind that winter driving in that country isn't a picnic...maybe if you have a 6x6 duece-and-a-half it's a picnic but the fuel burn isn't pretty...
 
I haven't done the math so I'm not sure, but I'm betting flying yourself would take longer than your torturous airline trip. You do realize small private planes travel between 100 and 150 mph (there are exceptions), right? I used to figure flying myself took about 1/2 the time as driving with everything considered. YMMV.
 
Here is what I would suggest. Make all your plans and such as if you never will fly your own plane. If it still makes sense and your wife won't divorce you, do that while you pursue your license (for fun, not driven by commute obligations). If it still makes sense then pursue your own plane. Like others have pointed out, you will be flying over some of the most rugged terrain in the lower 48, in inclement weather more often than not. More than one person has lost their life flying those mountains. My cfi knew a guy who crashed (with several family members) in Idaho. Icing with heavy load in a fiki plane.

Honestly, I think you are better off either staying where you are, or convincing the wife to move. From time to time I mention Jackson Hole as an area to move to... my wife just says she will divorce me.
 
woodchucker said:
Here is what I would suggest. Make all your plans and such as if you never will fly your own plane. If it still makes sense and your wife won't divorce you, do that while you pursue your license (for fun, not driven by commute obligations). If it still makes sense then pursue your own plane. Like others have pointed out, you will be flying over some of the most rugged terrain in the lower 48, in inclement weather more often than not. More than one person has lost their life flying those mountains. My cfi knew a guy who crashed (with several family members) in Idaho. Icing with heavy load in a fiki plane.

Honestly, I think you are better off either staying where you are, or convincing the wife to move. From time to time I mention Jackson Hole as an area to move to... my wife just says she will divorce me.
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Ahhh, candor...

Excellent advice. Many thanks.
 
The necessary living expenses that come along with the commute you describe could end up eating up more of your higher income than you expect. In fact, I would plan on it eating up more than you expect. Unless your new job comes with living expenses, that is. Will you get company-paid hotel or housing (including utilities), meals, etc?

I like the suggestion above of moving to Wyoming and going back to Washington for recreation or visiting the friends/relatives you left behind. I've lived in the central/north-west areas of Wyoming and I envy your opportunity. I spent my high school years there and loved every single second of it.
 
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If the wife must have city living, and you're willing to consider Spokane, then why not consider Boise, ID? You would still have to commute over some mountains, but it's better than crossing the Cascades and the Bitteroots. You could swing a little southeast from Boise, below the Bitteroots along the Snake River Valley, then pop over Yellowstone Lake and over a bit of mountains along Hwy 14 to Cody or Powell. Easy peezy and you're commute would take you over the some of the most beautiful scenery in the US of A. My family is from rural Oklahoma and my brother went and got one of those big city wives from Orange County CA. She absolutely loved living in Boise. He finally dragged her kicking and screaming to Oklahoma and they reside quite happily on the outskirts of Tulsa, though I don't think he'll ever get her any further away from the bonds of city livin'. It's a shame really. Country livin' is great, and the coffee from the corner store is just as good as Starbucks ;)
 
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Heavy Weather said:
1) Is this scenario plausible, or is there an obvious logistical deal-breaker that I'm not seeing?
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The deal breaker is that you have to cross some of the most ice laden mountains on a schedule.

The aircraft you need either has a one turbine on the nose or two turbocharged engines on the wings. No matter how great your salary jump, if you want to commute by plane, a substantial portion of that will be eaten by your flying.

2) Can a novice pilot (with IFR training and a well-maintained 182/206/whatever) tackle this type of route? It's foggy as hell here, windy as hell there, and with all kinds of big pointy snow-covered things in between.
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At least you have no illusions.

In nice weather, this is a great trip by GA. But as you know, nice weather is not a given on that route. Btw. Wyoming is home to the wind-chain. If the weather is nice, you may still encounter winds and turbulence that make flying a little aircraft if not dangerous, certainly not much fun.


3) What other questions should I be asking myself, my family, and my future employer?
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Yourself: Do I really want this.

I have been doing a 1200mile commute to work for the past 5 years. I have a similar schedule to yours and it works for me. It doesn't work so well for my wife (todays call was 'honey, the uptairs AC died') and it certainly doesn't work for my kids. They really hate when it I am gone.

Your wife: Can you deal with a commuting relationship.

'I didn't marry you to raise our kids as working single mom'.

Your employer: By the grace of god, dont tell them that you are planning to commute long term. You would probably be eliminated from consideration for the job. Tell them that your family will stay in Seattle until the school year is over and that you are looking for a nice home in the area. Unless your wife is tied to Seattle job-wise, I would really consider moving the family to the job rather than commuting. My wife has a career in DC so we can't move to my job, but if it wasn't for that, I would never commute. Now, rural WY may not be for everyone, but Billings is a nice city that offers options both for education and possibly job opportunities for your wife. A 90min commute to your job beats the long-range trip.






Btw. While there are no direct flights into Cody, Alaska does have two non-stops into Billings. Powell to Billings Logan is 96 miles. That's an hour 30min at Montana speeds. I would not get into a puddle-jumper with a connection if the alternative is a 90min ride on rural highways. Commercial will beat flying yourself financially every time. You can't even buy the fuel for what the airline charges. GA is great for shorter distances and trips with a flexible schedule. For a long-range commute, GA only works if you have a plane where you can turn right at the door and just say 'hi' to the crew that flies you. Get yourself a global entry card and some good travel luggage. With carry-on only and TSA-Pre, airline travel on a non-stop route is a no-brainer.
 

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Go read up on what the happiness pros have found re: long commutes. Take the wife to WY for a visit. Also look into schools and number of kids around. If you have to drive 45 minutes to get enough kids together for soccer practice it gets old. If you stay use it as a bargaining chip, honey we won't move to WY if I can get my license and buy a plane...
 
To follow up with what others have said, and what I have said, I would move out there in a heartbeat. I currently drive an hour and 15 minutes to work at 80 mph, and the ride home takes between 1:30 to 3 hours depending on time of year, holidays etc. In the summer before a long holiday, I can full expect a 3 hour commute home. This is all the general DC area up to pennsylvania.

Its a long drive, but honestly, I get paid well for it and I have some serious job satisfaction. I actually get too tired from sitting around and thinking about what I'm going to do at work the next day, what I could improve on etc.

What I've done to mitigate the long haul is to work a compressed schedule. I work 6 am to 3 pm every day and save up enough extra hours to take every other friday off and still have an 80 hour work week.

My advice is to consider quality of life, job satisfaction and work flexibility. My wifes commute is 30 minutes to work and 45 minutes home.... again, paid very well and very satisfied at work,but our total monthly bill for gas is $800 a month, and we spend almost $200 a month on tolls. In both of our opinions though, its worth it. She can tell I'm happier where I am (came from a place that was absolutely horrible in all aspects), and she's happy. The fact that I'm no longer at home cursing and griping about work, we live well, and have both have job satisfaction makes the long hours, long commute and higher costs worth it.

That being said, I am starting the process to get cleared for the DC FRZ. There's a GA airport that is 5 miles from work. I could fly VFR days and since I work defense sector, I've also gotten civil aircraft landing permits for all CONUS air strips for business trips.

It can be worth it, just think it through. As soon as I can work remotely or find a similar line of work AND get a place in wyoming with Fios internet, in the wilderness, I'm gone.
 
It can be done, but as mentioned, in a full FIKI, turbo plane. I would add pressurization to this myself, to be able to get above bad weather. Personally I'd never do it in a single over that terrain.

I am biased, but a nice Aerostar would do the job just fine and you can get into them for $150K. And on those distances (sub 1000nm), a fast twin like that will save you time door to door even. You won't save any money at all, but on the other hand time is money.

Expect it to cost at least $20-30K per year in maintenance at that utilization level. Add about 30gal/hr or around $500 in fuel for each one way trip, $1000 round. Add whatever else on top of that you need for engine reserves, training, insurance, hangarage etc.
 
Heavy Weather said:
Yeah, we already get pounded at tax time. (Regrettably, I never served in the military, so I like to think that I'm doing my best to fund it instead. :thumbsup:) Neither WA or WY has a state income tax, so at least that's a lateral move.

Anyways, Seattle seems like the deal-breaker. I've bagged my share of Cascade summits, but I prefer a methodical, upward, boot-propelled approach as opposed to an impromptu horizontal route :eek:.

But would Spokane-Cody/Powell be doable after 1-2 years of training (with IFR) in a 182/206, or do I still need FIKI flying into Northern Wyoming?

Thanks again for all your help, gang.
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I'll say "possible" depending on the severity of icing conditions. As an example, two friends and I spent two days in Bozeman, MT waiting for suitable weather while on the way to McMinnville,OR in 2013. We wound up detouring way south in Utah to escape icing. There is no guarantee.

BTW, one of my friends flies a Twin Commander with TKS. He won't fly to Coeur deLane when the weather is crappy.
 
Norman said:
I'll say "possible" depending on the severity of icing conditions. As an example, two friends and I spent two days in Bozeman, MT waiting for suitable weather
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I've been stuck in Riverton, WY for a couple days by freezing fog. It's a little unusual to have it hang around that long but there's nothing you can do when it settles in.
 
JasonM said:
You will want a FIKI SR22T for that mission. I love mine. Best decision I have made so far!
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Nope, I wouldn't regularly make that commute a GA airplane unless its burning Jet-A, ideally 2 engines burning it.
 
I do not believe it is. Flying in the rockies in the winter? or summer even for that matter with t-storms... no. sorry.
The weather, winds, terrain, it's going to make it nearly impossible to regularly and predictably get there most of the year.
A tbm, malibu, sure, sr22 turbo, maybe. Even then...
 
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Not that they aren't people out there, but I've never seen anyone with a year's worth of "hobby" aviation experience that were capable of pulling off a mission like that. It would seem to be a compacted syllabus to go from medical to FIKI IMC over mountains with ground fog on one end and 30kt surface winds on the other. Maybe I just haven't been out much. Definitely don't know that many mountain flyers.
 
gitmo234 said:
To follow up with what others have said, and what I have said, I would move out there in a heartbeat. I currently drive an hour and 15 minutes to work at 80 mph, and the ride home takes between 1:30 to 3 hours depending on time of year, holidays etc. In the summer before a long holiday, I can full expect a 3 hour commute home. This is all the general DC area up to pennsylvania.

Its a long drive, but honestly, I get paid well for it and I have some serious job satisfaction. I actually get too tired from sitting around and thinking about what I'm going to do at work the next day, what I could improve on etc.

What I've done to mitigate the long haul is to work a compressed schedule. I work 6 am to 3 pm every day and save up enough extra hours to take every other friday off and still have an 80 hour work week.

My advice is to consider quality of life, job satisfaction and work flexibility. My wifes commute is 30 minutes to work and 45 minutes home.... again, paid very well and very satisfied at work,but our total monthly bill for gas is $800 a month, and we spend almost $200 a month on tolls. In both of our opinions though, its worth it. She can tell I'm happier where I am (came from a place that was absolutely horrible in all aspects), and she's happy. The fact that I'm no longer at home cursing and griping about work, we live well, and have both have job satisfaction makes the long hours, long commute and higher costs worth it.

That being said, I am starting the process to get cleared for the DC FRZ. There's a GA airport that is 5 miles from work. I could fly VFR days and since I work defense sector, I've also gotten civil aircraft landing permits for all CONUS air strips for business trips.

It can be worth it, just think it through. As soon as I can work remotely or find a similar line of work AND get a place in wyoming with Fios internet, in the wilderness, I'm gone.
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Which airport are you looking at?
 
College park. I'm actually going to stop in there tomorrow to get started
 
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