Is there any point in IR training without a GPS?

[Doggtyred]

I'm absolutely dedicated to navigation without GPS. I do it all the time. Even charts and eyeballs sometimes. But there are less and less airports with any sort of approaches that don't require GPS. My question, which, in composing your charming sarcasm apparently you didn't read to the end of, is:how much use for real world IFR, which might well include flying a approach at the end, is a non-GPS airplane useful for?

That system, which is somehow predicated on GPS not being there, still has a great many airports (and more all the time) which REQUIRE GPS to get into under IMC.

John

You are more likely to find non-GPS approaches at larger, busier airports. The GPS approaches were rolled out as a mechanism to bring IFR approaches with better RNP to the airports that previously had little in the way of approaches (besides an NDB or a circling VOR-A or something marginally useful). At first lots of nonprecision approaches were overlaid with a GPS copy. As WAAS, baro-aided VNAV and other improved RNP capabilities came into use, nonoverlay GPS approaches were published. But the gold standard in my book for GA hard IFR is the Cat 1 ILS. Those still exist in quite a few places. You might not like the fuel bill in some of them.

So to answer your question...It depends. You can fly hard IFR and land on concrete from one end of this country to the other without being /G

You can have /G and have more airstrips open to you, perhaps in smaller towns with less frills and attractions, but the basic utility of IFR GA can exist without GPS.

 

[somorris]

[QUOTE="So to answer your question...It depends. You can fly hard IFR and land on concrete from one end of this country to the other without being /G

You can have /G and have more airstrips open to you, perhaps in smaller towns with less frills and attractions, but the basic utility of IFR GA can exist without GPS.[/QUOTE]

I have found that a lot of the smaller towns with less frills have a tendency to not have rental cars available. If you don't need to go anywhere except to the airport or if someone is picking you up, that is okay. Sometimes, though, we need ground transportation and don't want to ask our clients to come get us.

I am probably one of the few here, but I think a non-GPS aircraft for instrument flight is still very useful. If it is well equipped for flying IMC (i.e. dual NAVCOMMs, DME, etc.) you can use non-panel mount GPS (multiple is good for backup) and do just about the same thing if you are landing at an airport that has ground based approaches, like ILS. A bonus is that you don't have to pay for updates for a panel mount GPS. For recreational/family/light-business flying, I am of the opinion that this is all you need. More is of course better, but not required.

 

[kayoh190]

I am probably one of the few here, but I think a non-GPS aircraft for instrument flight is still very useful. If it is well equipped for flying IMC (i.e. dual NAVCOMMs, DME, etc.) you can use non-panel mount GPS (multiple is good for backup) and do just about the same thing if you are landing at an airport that has ground based approaches, like ILS. A bonus is that you don't have to pay for updates for a panel mount GPS. For recreational/family/light-business flying, I am of the opinion that this is all you need. More is of course better, but not required.

I completely agree. As others have mentioned, GPS approaches are primarily useful at smaller airports. Which of course many on here need, but in my case there's almost always an ILS/LOC or VOR approach available. And even if not, it's pretty rare for me to being flying GA in conditions lower than what's needed for a visual. Hell, in my airliner, just about everything we do can be done with /A (or whatever /A with RVSM is). We might annoy ATC by not being able to fly the RNAV Departures and Arrivals, but from a practical standpoint, not much changes.

That's not to say that having an IFR GPS isn't awesome - it certainly is. But it's just another tool in the bag - and I really don't think I'd miss it too much, especially with a ForeFlight setup or equivalent.

 

[James331]

I completely agree. As others have mentioned, GPS approaches are primarily useful at smaller airports. Which of course many on here need, but in my case there's almost always an ILS/LOC or VOR approach available. And even if not, it's pretty rare for me to being flying GA in conditions lower than what's needed for a visual. Hell, in my airliner, just about everything we do can be done with /A (or whatever /A with RVSM is). We might annoy ATC by not being able to fly the RNAV Departures and Arrivals, but from a practical standpoint, not much changes.

That's not to say that having an IFR GPS isn't awesome - it certainly is. But it's just another tool in the bag - and I really don't think I'd miss it too much, especially with a ForeFlight setup or equivalent.

Indeed
Depends on where you are flying into and out of though, where I live not being a /G makes real world IFR flight nearly impossible