is there a method to this madness?

WannFly

WannFly

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ok so I am getting semi serious about aircraft ownership and plan to train in it and get to IFR and knowing nothing about planes is making it very difficult since 1. I don't know which model will serve my purpose and 2. I have no idea what I want.

some of these questions might not make sense, newbie here...

is this the case for every first time buyer? so far this is what I know and there are literally thousands of them that fits... how the heck do I narrow down?

1. budget - modest. is there anything called modest budget for airplanes? don't know, but I am not looking for a 10k one and definitely not a 100k one. somewhere in between 50k may be?
2. avionics - well G1000 has a lot of buttons to push and I am training in one, but I know I cant afford it. and from what I hear, if I buy a 30k plane and spend another 30k on avionics, I am not getting that money back when I sell.. 3-4 years down the line, may be sooner
3. I would love to have some kind of moving map/ wx brief as much real time as possible. some of planes I see have Garmin 430 that might work, though I am not sure how much you can really see in a 4 inch screen without fiddling around with it constantly.
4. right now I fly C172 and have no idea how a low wing will fly or a 182 will fly.. and I don't have a low wing at my flight school... so if I cant find a low wing , I would have to decide between a 172 / 182. what are other forgiving models that I should be looking at being a absolute novice?

anything else I might have missed... please point away
 
First you have to define your mission. How many people for what types of trips?...both on an average day and once in a blue moon day. That will help define that plane that will fit your needs.

I went through the buying process in 2013 having trained in a G1000 also. Type of plane is gonna be subjective, but knowing what I know now I would want at least a 430 or better with an AP that has altitude hold if you are gonna be doing any real world IFR traveling. With EFB's and ADS-B, big G1000 screens are nice but not necessary...and likely out of your budget. Many will argue that a 430 is not necessary but I know I am not buying another plane without at least that on board.
 
Thanks @Shawn and sorry I missed out that part. my mission primarily.... $100 hamburger runs with 1 may be 2 pax (combined pilot and pax max weight 600 with luggage), XC - same weight. one a blue moon may be 750-800 lbs on some XC. that's about it. I want something IFR capable and would travel at night down the road and yes I want AP, just don't know which one I want..lol
 
There are a good number of Cherokee 180s around,with some fairly nice avionics,I wouldn't worry about the difference between high and low wings.
 
ohh I forgot to mention the SMOH part.. the lesser the better right? I am shooting about 700 or less SMOH and then may be less at 1000 so that its still mid range. I also see the same thing for props.. so lesser the better? and something that was not just sitting in hanger
 
So you want a plane that is constantly flying, but has low TT??
 
James331 said:
So you want a plane that is constantly flying, but has low TT??
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ha ... that's a good point.. actually I want something that's (somewhat) recently got a overhaul. from what I understand airframe TT is not that big of a deal unless I am looking at something with 20k TT
 
I'm no expert but here's my .02.
1. Budget - You can never have enough money when it comes to flying. I'm sure you can find very nice planes in the $50k range but expect to spend more.
2. Buy a plane that already has avionics. You're not instrument rated but you will want to be some day and radios cost more to install than the plane. I have no experience with a G1000. Don't forget ADS-b compliance.
3. Buy something with a common radio (430w). That way if it goes to heck, you can buy one on ebay and slide it in without an avionics shop (I think, do your research). A 430w "should" be connected to an indicator (CDI) so you're not trying to follow the magenta line on a 4" screen.
4. High or low wing doesn't matter for your current mission. One to 2 passengers fits "most" GA aircraft that work well for training. Talk to your instructor and see what they are comfortable with. Low time for TT, SMOH, and prop is better but more costly.
5. HAVE FUN AND DON'T BE AFRAID TO SELL YOUR PLANE IN A FEW YEARS IF THE MISSION CHANGES!!! Too many people look at their plane like it's their baby and won't sell/trade no matter what. You never know when the wife is pregnant with twins and you need to trade up to a twin. :)
 
Id go with a 430, not so much for failure, haven't seen one pop, but because they will do everything a g1000 will do
 
has anybody got any idea when Barnstormers will be returning to my pitiful life ??? I miss reading about $1.750.000 Lockheed 's and $3,000 homebuilts !!! Come on already !!!
 
As far as the 172s and 182s, there is a reason they are the most common aircraft built and owned.

They do lots of things pretty darn well. Not everything the best, but lots of things, including everything in your mission.

And, best of all, they are a "commodity", so they are easy to buy (lots of them around, you can look and fine nice ones in your $50k range) and, just as important, they are easy to sell. In 3,5,10 years, there will be pilots that have learned in Cessnas, and want to buy a high wing, just because that is what they know.

There are other good choices, but, they start compromising in one area or another, and soon you have a difficult plane to sell.

All things equal, a 182 or a 172 won't be a bad purchase. May not be a headturner at the local $100 hamburger joint, but that shouldn't matter.

good luck.
 
Thanks all, I am not looking for a head Turner, cudnt care less... I have been looking around and can't find a one I like with everything in it for 50k. I will be financing so I might get higher, 65k range I guess...

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Getya a Cessna Cardinal, C-177, fixed gear or retract. Big ass doors, comfy, and economical.
 
mscard88 said:
Getya a Cessna Cardinal, C-177, fixed gear or retract. Big ass doors, comfy, and economical.
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I will add that to my research. Thanks

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I'm going to mention a few things as honest opinions:

- Training budget will keep you alive. Airplane budget buys toys. Why are you focusing on the toy budget first and not the quality and price of instruction?

A good primary instructor will be in your head the rest of your life, no matter what you fly. A bad one will too.

I'd be looking for the best instructor I could find and not as worried about the aircraft being flown.

- Training aircraft are tough. The higher you go up the aircraft ladder the more you need to fly them well to avoid damage.

The most common damage on a 182 is a pilot landing hard on the nosewheel and buckling/wrinkling the firewall. It's not a cheap repair.

Why beat up your own airplane to learn how to land?

- VFR/IFR and "hamburger runs"... you can fly all over the country safely, VFR. I have. If your goal is "hamburger runs", and not significantly more recurrent training, I honestly do NOT recommend an Instrument rating.

Staying current and proficient at Instrument flying is a significant commitment. Many more hours than weekend hamburger runs.

The average Instrument pilot should be budgeting some significant amount of personal time to maintain currency and proficiency.

Generally the VFR skillset isn't as "use it or lose it" as IFR.

So here's a couple of questions that relate to the above ideas:

1. How much do you propose to spend on training during the initial rating? How fast will you train? One day a month? Week? Every other day?

After earning the Private rating, stated in terms of both money and number of days available per month... how much training do you expect to do, above and beyond the "hamburger runs"? The legal minimums are not enough for proficiency for a newly minted instrument pilot. Most conservative instructors recommend flying a full IPC every six months besides any approaches flown, and even that's perhaps sketchy. At least in the first couple of years.

The answers to those questions may make a significant impact in what aircraft you may wish to own, as well as whether or not you even pursue an instrument rating, for example.

An autopilot isn't there to help you fly the airplane -- you have to be fully capable of flying the airplane by hand at all times, that's what the certificate and the instrument rating say -- the autopilot is a nice to have feature to lower your workload to think harder about the flight while monitoring it so it doesn't kill you.

Does the above make sense?
 
my plan is to rent the local 172 until I build up a few hundred hours then buy a Comanche or if I am feeling like living dangerously with the check book somthing with a Turbo.
 
midcap said:
my plan is to rent the local 172 until I build up a few hundred hours then buy a Comanche or if I am feeling like living dangerously with the check book somthing with a Turbo.
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LOL... you know the average GA pilot flies about 50-100 hours a year, right? Three years of renting might be more than you can bear. :)

The numbers are hard... 52 weeks in a year, two hours a week, is only 104 hours aloft... if you ask someone if they're going to fly weekly, they'll sometimes say yes, but it rarely happens.

We weekend warriors just can't rack up the hours the weekday pilots can.

Throw in a couple of cold months in certain climate regions, and you have to make it up in the warmer part of the year... or go play freeze your butt off at the hangar... either of which may be done, I'd say that one is about 50/50.

That or you fly a lot at night when you know the weekend schedule is full... which explains my logbook...
 
denverpilot said:
I'm going to mention a few things as honest opinions:

- Training budget will keep you alive. Airplane budget buys toys. Why are you focusing on the toy budget first and not the quality and price of instruction?

A good primary instructor will be in your head the rest of your life, no matter what you fly. A bad one will too.

I'd be looking for the best instructor I could find and not as worried about the aircraft being flown.

- Training aircraft are tough. The higher you go up the aircraft ladder the more you need to fly them well to avoid damage.

The most common damage on a 182 is a pilot landing hard on the nosewheel and buckling/wrinkling the firewall. It's not a cheap repair.

Why beat up your own airplane to learn how to land?

- VFR/IFR and "hamburger runs"... you can fly all over the country safely, VFR. I have. If your goal is "hamburger runs", and not significantly more recurrent training, I honestly do NOT recommend an Instrument rating.

Staying current and proficient at Instrument flying is a significant commitment. Many more hours than weekend hamburger runs.

The average Instrument pilot should be budgeting some significant amount of personal time to maintain currency and proficiency.

Generally the VFR skillset isn't as "use it or lose it" as IFR.

So here's a couple of questions that relate to the above ideas:

1. How much do you propose to spend on training during the initial rating? How fast will you train? One day a month? Week? Every other day?

After earning the Private rating, stated in terms of both money and number of days available per month... how much training do you expect to do, above and beyond the "hamburger runs"? The legal minimums are not enough for proficiency for a newly minted instrument pilot. Most conservative instructors recommend flying a full IPC every six months besides any approaches flown, and even that's perhaps sketchy. At least in the first couple of years.

The answers to those questions may make a significant impact in what aircraft you may wish to own, as well as whether or not you even pursue an instrument rating, for example.

An autopilot isn't there to help you fly the airplane -- you have to be fully capable of flying the airplane by hand at all times, that's what the certificate and the instrument rating say -- the autopilot is a nice to have feature to lower your workload to think harder about the flight while monitoring it so it doesn't kill you.

Does the above make sense?
Click to expand...

all very valid points @denverpilot and honestly I didn't think of a few things you mentioned, also, I have no idea what I am doing, so feel free to poke holes in my dreamboat...

I am planning to train 2 times a week, even 3 if the instructor/plane is available. but beautiful winter up here has put a dent in my plan. I started this journey about a month back (or may be a little more) and so far I managed to get 5 classes. damn weather keeps getting in the way. I have the training budget for 60 hours put aside, if I need another 20 hours, that's fine too. I like to over budget everything.

After I get a ticket, and spending some time actually enjoying flying, I plan to start IFR rating, I may not need it, but I want to have the skill and practice it on a regular basis for "just case times" or to have the sill under my belt so that I can fly at IFR conditions not because I have to, but because I can (definitely not talking about crossing personal limits). that's the plan, however, as I grow older, I do realize what looks great in a plan and what happens in real life are two completely different things. it is completely possible that I wont pursue IFR for another 2 years after I get my PPL, but I do plan to start working on it 6-8 months after PPL.

the thing is, I plan to fly 100 hrs a year or more if I am not renting (will it happen with the 6 months winter up here, may be, I don't mind freezing my butt off during pre-flight), if I am renting that's $160 for 172 and $130 for 162 wet or 13-16k a year and I don't put a penny in owning it. 3 years of that, and that's the cost of the plane I am planning to buy. granted I will finance so the whole amount that I will pay monthly will not go in principal, but at least 50% will. financially renting just doesn't make a lot of sense in my head, I would rent if I am flying less than 50 hours. I could be completely wrong though.

now you bring on a very valid point... why break the nose wheel of my own plan when I can break the one at the FBO.... that I don't have an answer to... love to hear thoughts from people who learnt in their own planes..
 
midcap said:
my plan is to rent the local 172 until I build up a few hundred hours then buy a Comanche or if I am feeling like living dangerously with the check book somthing with a Turbo.
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don't know what your rental market look like, but mine is 160/hr.. that's 32k for 200 hrs in rental. + if you ever want to take it somewhere overnight, my FBO here charges 4 hrs a day whether I fly it or not, that's 8 hrs for a may be 2 hr trip that I have to pay for...
 
mscard88 said:
Getya a Cessna Cardinal, C-177, fixed gear or retract. Big ass doors, comfy, and economical.
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I have one and I would second that. I would suggest a 1976 (or later, but 1976 is probably the best year of them all) due to the various difference in the model years.
 
WannFly said:
don't know what your rental market look like, but mine is 160/hr.. that's 32k for 200 hrs in rental. + if you ever want to take it somewhere overnight, my FBO here charges 4 hrs a day whether I fly it or not, that's 8 hrs for a may be 2 hr trip that I have to pay for...
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$130 wet with 3 hour minimum for XC overnight.

I thought about buying a C172 to build hours but with my luck I would need to OH before TBO and loose my rear end on the deal, I also thought about a 182 as a compromise between the 172 and Comanche. Or I guess I could just beef up the Mx reserve account and get a 182RG that would keep up with the Comanche all the while not being a bad plane for a low time pilot to build time in.

Everyone tells me to stay away from the retract Cessnas though....:eek:
 
midcap said:
$130 wet with 3 hour minimum for XC overnight.

I thought about buying a C172 to build hours but with my luck I would need to OH before TBO and loose my rear end on the deal, I also thought about a 182 as a compromise between the 172 and Comanche. Or I guess I could just beef up the Mx reserve account and get a 182RG that would keep up with the Comanche all the while not being a bad plane for a low time pilot to build time in.

Everyone tells me to stay away from the retract Cessnas though....:eek:
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yeah I have heard about staying away from retracts too.. one more complication to deal with and 1 more thing to fail...
 
Talk to some mechanics. I'd say you would be fine with a 172. Get one with a Garmin 430 or similar. Its really nice to have a GPS unit that has pretty much everything you need to navigate to anywhere you want to go. Buy the best one you can afford. Make sure the engine is good and there are no corrosion problems.

If you have the money, and need the payload and speed of a 182, get one of those.

I think its usually best to wait until you have your Private Pilot License and then buy a plane. Plane ownership complicates training. Plane ownership tends to consume you.

Costs on a 172 start around 12,000 a year, so if you have that you probably have enough to do it.
 
Id also fly a few different airplanes first, you might not want a 172/182, lots more planes out there that are a lot more fun, Maules, PA24s, C180, 7ECA, cruisemaster, etc

For me Id rather just rent then buy a 172/182/PA28
 
coloradobluesky said:
Talk to some mechanics. I'd say you would be fine with a 172. Get one with a Garmin 430 or similar. Its really nice to have a GPS unit that has pretty much everything you need to navigate to anywhere you want to go. Buy the best one you can afford. Make sure the engine is good and there are no corrosion problems.

If you have the money, and need the payload and speed of a 182, get one of those.

I think its usually best to wait until you have your Private Pilot License and then buy a plane. Plane ownership complicates training. Plane ownership tends to consume you.

Costs on a 172 start around 12,000 a year, so if you have that you probably have enough to do it.
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That

But how are you spending 12k a year to keep a 172?! I'm waaay under that for my 185.
 
James331 said:
That

But how are you spending 12k a year to keep a 172?! I'm waaay under that for my 185.
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his hangar may be really expensive.

I have been running the #'s in my area and it's not that bad.

JoseCuervo said:
Investigate the cost versus benefits of a retract versus a straight leg 182.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It's probably not that much different if you stay on top of the gear systems.
 
lancie00 said:
I'm no expert but here's my .02.
3. Buy something with a common radio (430w). That way if it goes to heck, you can buy one on ebay and slide it in without an avionics shop (I think, do your research). A 430w "should" be connected to an indicator (CDI) so you're not trying to follow the magenta line on a 4" screen.
Click to expand...

Make sure you get the 430 that has a CDI page. <- oops... they all do!

The CDI requirement is similar to the annunciator requirement in that is bringing specific information into "the scan." They are required when the nav source is more than "some number of inches" from the primary scan. More on that soon from the A&P and CFI types.

I saw someone recommend the C177. If you go that route get the RG (ask me how I know). Otherwise get an Arrow. (RTOT)
 
coloradobluesky said:
Costs on a 172 start around 12,000 a year, so if you have that you probably have enough to do it
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is that a ball park for just flying around, hanger etc and MX or does that include any financing of the actual aircraft?
 
That covers the typical expenses, but not the purchase price. 100 hours at 120 per hour is 12000. Of course it varies, if you fly it more it is less per hour, if you fly it less it is more per hour. If hangars cost a lot where you are then there is that. If you get unlucky and have a lot of repairs, there is that. There is a chance of having to pay a large bill for an engine overhaul. The big unknown is the maintenance.

How much do hangars cost per month in your area?

The line items are:
FIXED COSTS
Hangar
Insurance
Annual

HOURLY COSTS
fuel
oil
maintenance
engine reserve (if you want to count that). Engine reserve is really a type of depreciation.

IFR aircraft are more expensive to maintain. More avionics that have to be kept up.

If the fixed costs are 5000 a year and the hourly costs are 60 an hour. That is 11000 for 100 hours with 1000 left over for other things (which will occur). Should be close. Might take 14000, you might do it on 9000. No way to know for sure ahead of time.

Look at what rentals are in your area for comparison.
 
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coloradobluesky said:
IFR aircraft are more expensive to maintain. More avionics that have to be kept up.
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This is slightly exaggerated. Buying database subscriptions should be done, even for the VFR gang.

Yes, the pitot system and transponder/encoder are checked bi-annually, but that's <$500... closer to $300.
 
Avionics repair is probably the most common repair needed. Consider an airplane with a radio, transponder and VFR handheld. Now consider one with an audio panel, two NAV/COMS, IFR/GPS, autopilot and transponder.

Also, we are all going to have to shell out 5k or so for an ADSB transponder by 2020.
 
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hangers are 300 - 400 depending on whether i get a heated one or just a covered hanger with a electric outlet for the oil pan heater to work.
 
rolivi said:
Make sure you get the 430 that has a CDI page. <- oops... they all do!

The CDI requirement is similar to the annunciator requirement in that is bringing specific information into "the scan." They are required when the nav source is more than "some number of inches" from the primary scan. More on that soon from the A&P and CFI types.

I saw someone recommend the C177. If you go that route get the RG (ask me how I know). Otherwise get an Arrow. (RTOT)
Click to expand...

Man, I'm visualizing flying a approach with just the CDI page on the GNS for nav, F' that noise.


coloradobluesky said:
Avionics repair is probably the most common repair needed. Consider an airplane with a radio, transponder and VFR handheld. Now consider one with an audio panel, two NAV/COMS, IFR/GPS, autopilot and transponder.

Also, we are all going to have to shell out 5k or so for an ADSB transponder by 2020.
Click to expand...

Avionics, I've had a ELT battery (couple hundred every few years), little universal joint on my EHSI, couple hundred, and the pitot/staric/xpdr every two years, just under $300.

Aside from that my annuals are 1k - 1300, maintenance is really just oil changes, which I do, some grease, maybe a inner tube and some break pads (pads and the occasional tube, nitro charge, etc that's included in my annual price).

Hangar is under $300, and I use it for a few other things too.

Insurance is 400ish a year for liability, I'll only add on extra coverage if my normal risk matrix is higher.

My biggest expense is toys and mods and lightening up on the plane, stuff I don't NEED to do, but gets me better performance.

And this is for a complex high performance plane, with a substantial nav stack.




As for fuel, I don't calculate that like that, I just fuel for the mission and yeah.


It's all also a write off for me, so that helps a little.





As for jepp nav updates, if you aren't flying IFR, or you can get them for free, I really wouldn't be too concerned for VFR ops, as long as they aren't over a few years old.


ADSB isn't mandatory, and depending on where you fly you very well might not even need it, as it stands there are some that are a few k below 5k, and with tech moving forward, they'll only go down in price.
 
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Yes, but you may have to buy an antenna too and pay for installation.

I looked on my airplane, which does not have a WAAS GPS (it has an IFR/GPS, but not WASS) and the least expensive single box solution that meets regs is 5000 or so all things included. If you already have WAAS it will be 1000 less, maybe. This might come down some as new things get invented.
 
My plan is to install ADS-B in Feb. of 2019, when I'm doing the annual and the plane is partially disassembled already. Another 2 years of development will see a number of other ADS-B solutions emerge, and the costs will come down too. The risk of doing this with a certified aircraft is that avionics shops may be overwhelmed at that point doing other installs to meet the deadline.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
The risk of doing this with a certified aircraft is that avionics shops may be overwhelmed at that point doing other installs to meet the deadline.
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I'm so done with this sales tactic. Not aimed @SoCal RV Flyer, but I keep seeing and hearing this drivel.

Hey... Avionics shop... train up a bunch of people so you can ride the wave. You can take on 3-5 people per shop and keep them going until Easter 2020. Then you can let them go (and they'll have VALUABLE experience). Solved.

The buy now or you'll have to wait stuff is just so... strange.
 
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