Is the method of control a deal breaker?

John Baker

John Baker

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John Baker
Your looking at an aircraft to purchase, my question is: Would you be dissuaded from a particular aircraft because it had a stick or a yoke or even a left side stick installed?

Is the method of control important enough that you would not consider a particular airplane because of it?

John
 
Nope. But, to each his own.
 
For myself, as a low time Jr. pilot (still a student with about 150 hrs.) I would not consider buying one of those new Cesnas (aka Columbia) or a Cirrus for that very reason. I have never flown a stick, but I can not wait to get my hands on one.

I can understand any seasoned pilot saying they will fly pretty much anything assuming they get the appropriate training or at least a familiarization intro. however, that little joy stick just seems strange to me.

I guess the other factor that is bothersome is it is not a mechanical control ( at least I don't think it is) its more like a little computer game. What happens when all the little lights go off?

John
 
No. And neither should you, unless you have some significant physical handicap (can I use that word?) like arm/hand dysfunction or absence which makes one system preferable to each other. For any "unchallenged" person, you'll get used to the different system pretty fast.

BTW, I speak from having flown just about every combination of stick/yoke and throttles other than left seat with left-hand sidestick and center throttles (still haven't been in the left seat of a Cirrus).
 
No, but if a side stick breaks off in ones hand it's gonna be too much fun trying to land with the opposite side stick, while not so bad with yoke or center stcick.
 
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Dave Krall CFII said:
No, but if a side stick breaks off in ones hand it's gonna be too much fun trying to land with the opposite side stick, while not so bad with yoke or center stcick.
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I'd rather have to reach the sidestick across the cockpit of a Cirrus SR20/22 than try to reach the other stick in a J-3C or T-34. But as Greg said, other than the old story of the WWII Army instructor tossing the stick overboard, I've never heard of the situation arising.
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, I speak from having flown just about every combination of stick/yoke and throttles other than left seat with left-hand sidestick and center throttles (still haven't been in the left seat of a Cirrus).
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Ron - we can fix that next time you're in Los Angeles, or maybe Gaston's next year.

I agree with the others. The differences between yoke and stick and side stick is less than the difference in feel between different airplanes. I am much more interested in the other characteristics of the plane than the controls.

Yes you should get training and practice before solo but I find most people learn the Cirrus side stick in about 10 minutes. Center stick was so much more natural than the yoke in a Cessna that I don't remember any time to get used to it.

Joe
 
I think I could get used to almost any style, given time. The basic techniques are not going to change.
 
I am still relatively low time pilot with 99% of my time in Cessna's and Piper's and have flown a "side joy stick" and a "center stick" both took about 5 minutes and it was a non issue.
I wouldn't be concerned about it at all.

Mark B
 
Folks go through the same anguish over free-castering versus steerable nosewheels -- again, 5 minutes is about all it takes. Tailwheel versus nosewheel, however, is rather a different issue.
 
I have 99.9% of my time using control yokes in conventional spam cans. The remainder of the time was in a glider with a center stick. The stick is so intuitive that I did not notice any transition time at all. Of course, the CFI-G was in the rear seat waiting for the screw up that didn't come.... (until the landing! The sight picture is so different. The glider sits very low to the ground, and I dropped it in big time!!! :redface: )

-Skip
 
I'll guess I'll be the contary one.

I wouldn't buy an airplane with a sidestick, no way, no how.
Besides a test flight in a Lancair Super ES, the only aircraft
I've flown are C-152, C-172, PA-28-140, PA-28-161, PA-28-180,
and a couple of piper Arrows. I've love to try a regular stick.
 
Because I write with my left hand and I don't want to sit
in the right seat.
 
John Baker said:
I guess the other factor that is bothersome is it is not a mechanical control ( at least I don't think it is) its more like a little computer game. What happens when all the little lights go off?

John
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It's mechanical. Fly-by-wire is for some airliners and fighters.

Dan
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Any documented cases of that happening?
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I don't know documentation, but I have seen a broken yoke. These modern side sticks are probably so high quality that there's just no way the system or even the electronics could ever possibly fail.
 
That (needing a job as co-pilot or instructor) is unlikely. I don't think
I'd qualify for a first class medical and would need a waiver for second class.

btw - I've been assuming single-pilot ops.
 
Bob Noel said:
Because I write with my left hand and I don't want to sit in the right seat.
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Should make no difference. In the 172, you use the left hand on the yoke and the right on the throttle. In the Citabria, the left is on the throttle and the right is on the stick. Takes about four minutes to get used to it. I hear no complaints from the students. And when I did my instructor training, the right seat felt funny for only a few minutes. The view out the window took longer getting used to than the switch in hands did.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
Should make no difference. In the 172, you use the left hand on the yoke and the right on the throttle. In the Citabria, the left is on the throttle and the right is on the stick. Takes about four minutes to get used to it. I hear no complaints from the students. And when I did my instructor training, the right seat felt funny for only a few minutes. The view out the window took longer getting used to than the switch in hands did.

Dan
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He was talking about a side-stick--not a center stick.
 
The two times I've flown stick (center, not side) it took me all of about 60 seconds to get used to, if that. I can't see that being a deal maker/breaker for me.

However, I really prefer having levers for my engine control rather than knobs. I'd have a much harder time convincing myself to buy a plane with knobs vs. levers.

If someone has a preference, I see no problem with it. You're spending a lot of money on the plane, it might as well be what you want.
 
Hadn't ever thought about levers vs. knobs. What's the big deal there? How about levers with different shaped knobs on the end? How do those count? In which pile?


IMO, most of that "picking the fly-**** out of the pepper" control configuration stuff seems a bit overblown. Best I can tell, most airplanes have the controls they came with, and some of the really neat ones have a few oddities to which the pilot must adapt. Is it worth a little effort and using a couple of different brain-cells to fly a Mustang with a stick or a seaplane with throttles overhead or a C-195 with a center yoke, or a Staggerwing with a side yoke? Guess it depends on who you ask. Anybody who doesn't want their turn in those airplanes can PM at any time. I'll take your slot. :tongue:

Ted DuPuis said:
The two times I've flown stick (center, not side) it took me all of about 60 seconds to get used to, if that. I can't see that being a deal maker/breaker for me.

However, I really prefer having levers for my engine control rather than knobs. I'd have a much harder time convincing myself to buy a plane with knobs vs. levers.

If someone has a preference, I see no problem with it. You're spending a lot of money on the plane, it might as well be what you want.
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During the factory transition training for my Columbia, the instructor mentioned that by the time you've completed your take off roll, you'll forget what kind of flight control device you're holding and it'll be a non-issue. I'd say that was about correct. To me though, the side stick on the Columbia is more intuitive and easy to use than the side-yoke on the Cirrus - but that's just me. I also fly a Pitts were the throttle is in my left hand and the stick in my right. For some reason, people think that might be confusing as well. All I can say is I've never confused the throttle with the stick in either aircraft.
 
PittsDriver said:
During the factory transition training for my Columbia, the instructor mentioned that by the time you've completed your take off roll, you'll forget what kind of flight control device you're holding and it'll be a non-issue. I'd say that was about correct. To me though, the side stick on the Columbia is more intuitive and easy to use than the side-yoke on the Cirrus - but that's just me. I also fly a Pitts were the throttle is in my left hand and the stick in my right. For some reason, people think that might be confusing as well. All I can say is I've never confused the throttle with the stick in either aircraft.
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I guess I know what other model plane I should be thinking of but I don't think that was the case a couple years ago. :)
 
wabower said:
Hadn't ever thought about levers vs. knobs. What's the big deal there? How about levers with different shaped knobs on the end? How do those count? In which pile?
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For me it's just a matter of the ergonomics of it. I like controlling with levers better. When you figure there are enough different kinds of planes out there that fit what I want to do, if I'm spending that kind of money, it might as well be what I want. An example, the Mooney I fly has levers. Different years of that plane had knobs. The owner and I are both glad that it has levers, it's just our preference.

IMO, most of that "picking the fly-**** out of the pepper" control configuration stuff seems a bit overblown. Best I can tell, most airplanes have the controls they came with, and some of the really neat ones have a few oddities to which the pilot must adapt. Is it worth a little effort and using a couple of different brain-cells to fly a Mustang with a stick or a seaplane with throttles overhead or a C-195 with a center yoke, or a Staggerwing with a side yoke? Guess it depends on who you ask. Anybody who doesn't want their turn in those airplanes can PM at any time. I'll take your slot. :tongue:
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I think you're missing the point here. Sure, you pick out some of these planes that anyone would love to fly and of course people would fly them regardless of how the control mechanisms worked. That doesn't change the fact that individuals may have preferences. The question is more like whether you prefer your automatic transmission lever on the shift column or on the floor. I'd bet you'd have a number of people with preferences for that, too, even though it makes absolutely zero difference in the control of the vehicle.
 
Great analogy, Ted! I'll get back to you all on this debate after I scrape up the cash to go up in the 1 DA20 or the 1 DA40 available for rent in the entire bloody Houston area... All 82 of my logged hours have been in planes with yokes. The only stick I've flown was a glider, but that was before I began my training and too long ago for me to really remember for a comparison. I'm not to worried about which hand goes on the throttle and which one goes on the control mechanism. I can go from flying in the left seat of a 172 to the right seat of my mentor's Bonanza and maintain the same amount of control and finesse in my hand-flying, the fact that I'm using opposite hands doesn't even factor in.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
For me it's just a matter of the ergonomics of it. I like controlling with levers better. When you figure there are enough different kinds of planes out there that fit what I want to do, if I'm spending that kind of money, it might as well be what I want. An example, the Mooney I fly has levers. Different years of that plane had knobs. The owner and I are both glad that it has levers, it's just our preference.



I think you're missing the point here. Sure, you pick out some of these planes that anyone would love to fly and of course people would fly them regardless of how the control mechanisms worked. That doesn't change the fact that individuals may have preferences. The question is more like whether you prefer your automatic transmission lever on the shift column or on the floor. I'd bet you'd have a number of people with preferences for that, too, even though it makes absolutely zero difference in the control of the vehicle.
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It appears that all you have to do is stick around long enough and they will come back around to you. Now the cars have starter buttons again. Go figure.

And you're right about preferences. I hate those single-lever airplanes. When I need somebody to tell me what RPM to fly, that will be as good a clue as any to hang it up.
 
t0r0nad0 said:
Great analogy, Ted! I'll get back to you all on this debate after I scrape up the cash to go up in the 1 DA20 or the 1 DA40 available for rent in the entire bloody Houston area... All 82 of my logged hours have been in planes with yokes. The only stick I've flown was a glider, but that was before I began my training and too long ago for me to really remember for a comparison. I'm not to worried about which hand goes on the throttle and which one goes on the control mechanism. I can go from flying in the left seat of a 172 to the right seat of my mentor's Bonanza and maintain the same amount of control and finesse in my hand-flying, the fact that I'm using opposite hands doesn't even factor in.
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I've had a couple of brief right seat periods in stick planes, both in Jay's Zodiac and also in a Lancair 320. Lastly I had some time in a glider. Jay's the only one who can tell you his fellings on the matter, but I felt like it took me all of a couple seconds to get used to using a stick vs. a yoke, and I had no problems in the transition. The bigger part was getting a feel for how the plane acts to control inputs which (especially on the Lancair) takes some time in any plane. I think I prefer yokes overall, because it gives me more room to move around, and I have this tendency of hopping in the plane and flying from here to someplace far, far away.

wabower said:
It appears that all you have to do is stick around long enough and they will come back around to you. Now the cars have starter buttons again. Go figure.
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Of course now you still need to have some sort of means of identifying yourself as the owner prior to just pushing the button and driving off in the car. ;)

Interesting side note: Last night I taxiied an Aztec across the field. An easy plane to start and maneuver, for sure... especially when starting just involves flipping the appropriate switches and pushing the button to engage the starter, no key required!

wabower said:
And you're right about preferences. I hate those single-lever airplanes. When I need somebody to tell me what RPM to fly, that will be as good a clue as any to hang it up.
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Once again, just a matter of preferences.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Jay's the only one who can tell you his fellings on the matter, but I felt like it took me all of a couple seconds to get used to using a stick vs. a yoke, and I had no problems in the transition.
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That's what it seemed like to me, too.

It took me pretty much no time at all to deal with the difference between a stick and a yoke. I'm still getting used to flying with my right hand.
 
Not surprisingly those who dislike side sticks are the ones with the least experience using them. I'm not surprised because I once disliked them too. Until I used one. For a traveling machine with a good autopilot, they are by FAR the best control method. Easy, intuitive and fun when you need it, out of the way, the remaining 95% of the time when you don't need it. They take seconds to get used to and are just as precise and effective as any other method but they really free up a lot of cockpit/panel space.

Also unsurprisingly, I agree with Henning. For a fun plane, I prefer a center stick. It has the best ergonomics and visceral interface when you're focused on the actual fun of flying. For a traveling plane, give me a side stick. I'm not sure why we still have yokes. I guess because people like to hang their portable Garmins on them.

I have pretty strong preferences but they wouldn't necessarily prevent me from buying a plane outside of my preferences - it would just be a negative that needs to be balanced against other attributes.
 
RudyP said:
Also unsurprisingly, I agree with Henning. For a fun plane, I prefer a center stick. It has the best ergonomics and visceral interface when you're focused on the actual fun of flying. For a traveling plane, give me a side stick. I'm not sure why we still have yokes. I guess because people like to hang their portable Garmins on them.
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Or, why do we even bother having shift levers for automatic transmissions when they're all computer controlled anyway? A lot of it probably comes down to "Because that's the way we've always done it" and a number of pilots like it.

I've not flown with a side stick, but it sounds like fun. I'm sure I will someday, today is just not that day. Tomorrow's not looking too probable, either.

I have pretty strong preferences but they wouldn't necessarily prevent me from buying a plane outside of my preferences - it would just be a negative that needs to be balanced against other attributes.
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That sounds most like my views, but since there are enough planes out there that I like, I'm able to obtain my preferences.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
No, but if a side stick breaks off in ones hand it's gonna be too much fun trying to land with the opposite side stick, while not so bad with yoke or center stcick.
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I thought that was what the chute was for?:D
The new G3 option.
 

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RudyP said:
Easy, intuitive and fun when you need it, out of the way, the remaining 95% of the time when you don't need it.
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You only fly 5% of the time? You might as well fly commercial then. The airplane has logged more time than you.:confused:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've not flown with a side stick, but it sounds like fun. I'm sure I will someday, today is just not that day. Tomorrow's not looking too probable, either.
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Maybe the day after tomorrow? :D

Dean said:
You only fly 5% of the time? You might as well fly commercial then. The airplane has logged more time than you
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I fly a lot of long IFR legs. I'm a safer pilot when I split the duties with the autopilot. And I enjoy flying my airplane more when I'm focused on the important stuff (i.e. the decision making) and George is maintaining 11,000 ft and precisely tracking a victor airway for 700NM than I would hand flying that. When there's some maneuvering to do or if I'm just flying a short VFR flight, that's when I hand fly. That's real fun. Maintaining a heading and altitude for 3 hours straight in the bumps (to the possible distraction of other higher-level tasks) isn't that much fun.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Or, why do we even bother having shift levers for automatic transmissions when they're all computer controlled anyway? A lot of it probably comes down to "Because that's the way we've always done it"
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I used to have some old Dodges with the 727 Torqueflights with push button shifters, and that was long before they ever put computers in cars.:cornut:
 
John Baker said:
Your looking at an aircraft to purchase, my question is: Would you be dissuaded from a particular aircraft because it had a stick or a yoke or even a left side stick installed?

Is the method of control important enough that you would not consider a particular airplane because of it?

John
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Nah, I've pretty much flown every current iteration of control position, and if I liked the aircraft, which one it had would not deter me from that plane.
 
RudyP said:
Maybe the day after tomorrow? :D
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Not looking so hot, either. ;)

Henning said:
I used to have some old Dodges with the 727 Torqueflights with push button shifters, and that was long before they ever put computers in cars.:cornut:
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Yeah, I never saw one of those in person but I hear they were interesting at best. My grandfather supposedly had one (back when it was new), and one day the button went into the dash. Oops. He also had a Lincoln Continental convertible (once again, when it was new), which got stuck pointed straight up in the air one day. He drove it to the dealership and turned it in for a hard top.

Interestingly, when I was in Australia and New Zealand the busses there had a push button automatic transmission, but also had a clutch. The clutch was used to get moving and then it automatically shifted gears. Different from what I've seen on the busses here, which appear to use standard automatics (but also have a push button transmission). I do know that the Volvo bus we were on in New Zealand had 768,000 km on it at the time, and didn't look anywhere near that old.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Yeah, I never saw one of those in person but I hear they were interesting at best. My grandfather supposedly had one (back when it was new), and one day the button went into the dash. Oops. He also had a Lincoln Continental convertible (once again, when it was new), which got stuck pointed straight up in the air one day. He drove it to the dealership and turned it in for a hard top.

Interestingly, when I was in Australia and New Zealand the busses there had a push button automatic transmission, but also had a clutch. The clutch was used to get moving and then it automatically shifted gears. Different from what I've seen on the busses here, which appear to use standard automatics (but also have a push button transmission). I do know that the Volvo bus we were on in New Zealand had 768,000 km on it at the time, and didn't look anywhere near that old.
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The push button 727s worked just fine, I had a 63 IIRC Savoy with 413 Max Stage II wedge with the cross ram an push button, I used to run it doen the track in the high 13s with street tires. Big lead sled.
 
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