Is the End of GA Nigh? (rantish)

[SkyHog]

I have been getting this feeling lately, its not really paranoia, but rather...well...

It seems that, looking back through the ages of GA, things are getting more and more strict, and people are losing more and more money. I almost get the feeling that I got into this hobby just in time to see it fade away.

I can see user fees coming and choking the rest of the life out of General Aviation. I see airports that are not used by airlines closing, and I can see the funds being redirected to the major airport nearby (Meigs, as an example). I see a time when the FAA will stop listening to the concerns of GA, and realize that the majority of us that do this do it as a hobby, not as a job. I can see non-pilot citizens getting so fed up with the noise that eventually, no airports will be near houses at all (unless they are served by a major airline).

The questions is, where will we get the commercial pilots from, if they can't get practice in general aviation aircraft to start with?

How many jobs would be lost at Cessna and every other GA plane manufacturer? How about at FBOs and Airports across the US?

Sigh.

 

[Brian Austin]

It is what you make of it.

They'll have to pull the stick out of my hand and drag my butt out of the cockpit, kicking and screaming. But I don't need it for work (although I use it for work) nor require fast planes landing in big cities. I think I'd be content putzing to the small airfields at 100kts in a two seater.

 

[ggroves]

Add to the list:

$4.00 plus 100LL in some parts of the country
Insurance costs and availablilty
Property taxes
Expanding airport/community restrictions

I know for a fact that most of the local flight schools aircraft are operating at a loss for the owners. I can't even imagine putting something on leaseback.

Greg
182RG

 

[Razor]

I have the same feeling, Nick... Like I said in the post on User Fees though, I intend to enjoy what I have while I have it. I'll try to adapt to whatever comes down the road, and hope I have enough money to cover it. Until then, I can enjoy flying for pancakes on summer weekends, and getting to a few vacation spots in between driving and flying commercial.

I do make some money from flying, but as a part-time CFI/CFII it's precious little. Not even enough to break even every year when I factor in my fun flying.

Carolyn

 

[jkaduk]

I think I heard that Cirrus has sold over 2K airplanes so far. As a EE I am quite aware of the engineering resources required to come up with the electronics that are showing up in GA airplanes these days. Seems to me that a number of people think there's a good future in GA. There has always been concern for GA because it is such a niche entity. But I think it doesn't take much looking around to see that the positives outnumber the negatives.
If people allow themselves to believe GA is doomed. There is a better chance that it will be.
My own death or serious illness are the only things that will ever keep me from flying.

 

[maximus]

I think I heard that Cirrus has sold over 2K airplanes so far. As a EE I am quite aware of the engineering resources required to come up with the electronics that are showing up in GA airplanes these days. Seems to me that a number of people think there's a good future in GA. There has always been concern for GA because it is such a niche entity. But I think it doesn't take much looking around to see that the positives outnumber the negatives.
If people allow themselves to believe GA is doomed. There is a better chance that it will be.
My own death or serious illness are the only things that will ever keep me from flying.

What about $10 Gallon for gas? That would take me out of the flying picture .

 

[bbchien]

Re: Is the End of GA Nigh?

What about $10 Gallon for gas? That would take me out of the flying picture .

You have to take this in the context of overal liability squeezing the bejeesus out of any productive activity. I can buy a Skyhawk on my annual liability premium. GA is in no better/no worse of a position than Medical care.

 

[maximus]

Re: Is the End of GA Nigh?

You have to take this in the context of overal liability squeezing the bejeesus out of any productive activity. I can buy a Skyhawk on my annual liability premium. GA is in no better/no worse of a position than Medical care.

I was debating when I was younger if I wanted to be a gp. I hear it is not as much fun today because of liability and work conditions. Now it looks like my decision to become a proffesional pilot is looking dimmer too. With the increasing demand for oil from developing third world countries and the industries decision to keep production at its current level. What can we expect in the years to come?

 

[jkaduk]

What about $10 Gallon for gas? That would take me out of the flying picture .

Gliders. Ultralights/sport. Auto gas STC. Hang gliders... I say again - my own death or serious illness...

 

[maximus]

Gliders. Ultralights/sport. Auto gas STC. Hang gliders... I say again - my own death or serious illness...

Good point.

 

[poadeleted3]

Add to the list:

$4.00 plus 100LL in some parts of the country
Insurance costs and availablilty
Property taxes
Expanding airport/community restrictions

I know for a fact that most of the local flight schools aircraft are operating at a loss for the owners. I can't even imagine putting something on leaseback.

Greg
182RG

I've only been hanging around airports for 25 years or so. It seems to me that as far back as I can remember, avgas has cost twice what car gas has. I doubt that will be the killer. Insurance may be, except I know of more and more people in both cars and planes either not carrying any or, in the case of cars, carrying the bare minimum from "insurance" companies that essentially provide nothing more than a card.

What will get us will be user fees, and a goverment increasingly demanding control of it's citizenry. Homeland Security has too much power, and speaking from experience, security types do not have a problem restricting freedom of movement. They hate our ability to move about at will uncontrolled, because it makes their job harder. The airlines are feeling a bit of a pinch from their business travellers, and will fight back to keep from losing that bread and butter market.

As for where they will get their pilots? Their own schools, of course. They already have their own schools, and will gladly use them to get rid of the nuisance and competition they see from us.

GA will only survive by being as agressive in it's recruiting as the NRA is in it's, and becoming as politically voracious. We must not tolerate airports that alienate the general public, we must not allow ourselves to be cast as the idle rich.

 

[John J]

NIck;

Your concerns are very well taken by this pilot. We do live in interesting times. I look and have over the years talked to many pilots who came of age in the late 1920s and 1930s. My first instructor flew during this time and he grew up as an airport kid. Many of the airline pilots grew up that way and of course many learned in the service. That was a great pool of pilots at that time. Many could not afford to own planes so they earn lessons for washing, fueling and just wiling to do anything to fly.

Today it is a much different story. Airport Kids are not seen around for airports cannot not "hire them" to do the jobs that help them along. It is about liability insurance, state and federal labor laws that discourage this venue for young flyers to be. Now the kid has to go to a very expensive flight school to get their ratingsor have a rich uncle. Most of the population cannot afford it. So this limits the population that can afford the training to fly.

Having been an "Airport Kid" so I could learn to fly I feel so lucky and glad I could do it. I met many airport kids when I was young and yes they went on to fly with the Airlines. Today it would be close to impossible for there are so few places to go. We do have the Young Eagles program to give intro flights but for the complete training it takes a lot of money that kidsand families just do not have.

A good post Nick;

John J

 

[Jeff Oslick]

GA will only survive by being as agressive in it's recruiting as the NRA is in it's, and becoming as politically voracious. We must not tolerate airports that alienate the general public, we must not allow ourselves to be cast as the idle rich.

I think Joe has got it nailed right here. WE are the future of GA. It is what WE do to promote GA that will determine it's fate. WE have to recruit new GA pilots - don't rely on the airlines to fill in our ranks! Join the AOPA Project Pilot Mentor program. Fly for the Young Eagles program. Do a talk at your kids' school. Talk to your coworkers about your flying - how you went on that great long weekend vacation to a place that would have taken a full day just to drive to.

Yes, there are financial barriers, but I know a lot of folks who spend as much on skiing vacations, golf vacations, and boats that could just as easily spend that disposable income on flying.

WE are responsible for making GA as safe as it can be, and demonstrating to our non-pilot friends and associates that the vast majority of the risks are ours to manage or mis-manage by our own actions or inactions.

But really, I think a lot of the folks on this board already do these things. So part of the job is also to convince other pilots you come in contact with to get involved to. Maybe we need a "Have You Supported GA Today?" bumper sticker!

Jeff

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Adjusted for inflation/etc. I've had FBO owners tell me GA flying costs no more today than it ever did.

But we will always be in an elite minority and eventually will by the masses be ledgislated/pushed/taxed out into the few sparesly populated areas and of course the sea.

So buy your cabins on meadows and your amphibs... !

I have been getting this feeling lately, its not really paranoia, but rather...well...

It seems that, looking back through the ages of GA, things are getting more and more strict, and people are losing more and more money. I almost get the feeling that I got into this hobby just in time to see it fade away.

I can see user fees coming and choking the rest of the life out of General Aviation. I see airports that are not used by airlines closing, and I can see the funds being redirected to the major airport nearby (Meigs, as an example). I see a time when the FAA will stop listening to the concerns of GA, and realize that the majority of us that do this do it as a hobby, not as a job. I can see non-pilot citizens getting so fed up with the noise that eventually, no airports will be near houses at all (unless they are served by a major airline).

The questions is, where will we get the commercial pilots from, if they can't get practice in general aviation aircraft to start with?

How many jobs would be lost at Cessna and every other GA plane manufacturer? How about at FBOs and Airports across the US?

Sigh.

 

[RogerT]

Gliders. Ultralights/sport. Auto gas STC. Hang gliders... I say again - my own death or serious illness...

I've had thoughts about getting out of the Warrior and into something
cheap like a Kit Fox or some other LSA aircraft. Just something that
goes up in the air locally and costs way less to operate. I seldom go
anywhere anyway.

I think there'll always be some way to get up in there air.

 

[corjulo]

Re: Is the End of GA Nigh?

GA is in no better/no worse of a position than Medical care.

That's a scary thought.

If AV fuel reach $10 then auto fuel would have to be around $5. If that happens we've got way more serious problems then flying. I tend to have faith in the market. SUV's sales have plummeted 30%, Use of mass transit is up, shipping cost from Asia have sky rocketed (giving domestic production a advantage), Boeing is bringing more fuel efficient jets online. And lets not forget the work being done to move piston aircraft to Diesel.

All this acts to lower demand. I'm not panicking yet. The only thing that really scares me is the federal deficit. It hard to fight inflation with a huge federal deficit.

 

[Anthony]

When I started flying in 1994 everybody was saying that GA was dead or dieing. Eleven years later, everybody is still saying GA is dead or dieing. Don't hold your breath.

 

[Tom-D]

When I started flying in 1994 everybody was saying that GA was dead or dieing. Eleven years later, everybody is still saying GA is dead or dieing. Don't hold your breath.

11 years ago I did not need liability insurance to work as a free lanced A&P off the tail gate of my truck. 5 years ago I saw the need, the policy cost me $150 for that first year, last year it was $1100 this year it was $13k. as a independant A&P not working under a corporate umbrella. I can not spread that cost over my small customer base. Forcing the service providers out of business in any field will run the cost up to where the small owner operator can't afford to own their aircraft, or keep in the proper condition.

This whole industry is in trouble, due to the lack of interest of the public, sky rocketing prices of fuel, parts, and insurance,which is closing the door to entry level young people. This is an every decreasing spiral into a non existant industry.

This syndrom has been happening for a long time it really started in 1948 with the collapse of the Consolidated aircraft mess. Before that we had several companies manufacturering aircraft, and basically after we had 2, Piper, and Cessna. They saw thier hay day just prior to 1984 when Cessna shut down the single engine line due to liability issues.

I am one of the ones who said we are in trouble 11 years ago. Over regulation, stiffles any industry, after 9/11 we got plenty new regulations and it won't get better. Now that the public knows the GA is a threat to their safety, we can't get the de-regulation we need, to revive the industry.

Think about this, how many CFI's do you know who quit giving lessons due to the new identification rule now in place. How many airports do you know of that have rules about who can be on the property? How many airports do you know that have a security fence that keeps the airport kids out?

I still believe we are still in trouble as a whole, and it will continue until you and every other pilot gets off their lazy A-- and takes a lot of kids flying and not just young eagles, but every kid you know, every kid your kids know, and every kid in your high school.

Ask your self what you have done to promote aviation TODAY, this WEEK, this month? If nothing is your answer, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.

 

[Flyboy]

Remember though - they are working on the "highway in the sky" technology which is supposed to let a lot more people "fly" without as much pilot training.

I think that's when I'll quit. I'd probably run a stop sign at 3000 feet anyway.

 

[wsuffa]

I am one of the ones who said we are in trouble 11 years ago. Over regulation, stiffles any industry, after 9/11 we got plenty new regulations and it won't get better. Now that the public knows the GA is a threat to their safety, we can't get the de-regulation we need, to revive the industry.

I still believe we are still in trouble as a whole, and it will continue until you and every other pilot gets off their lazy A-- and takes a lot of kids flying and not just young eagles, but every kid you know, every kid your kids know, and every kid in your high school.

Ask your self what you have done to promote aviation TODAY, this WEEK, this month? If nothing is your answer, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.

There are plenty of people (starting with the airlines) who want the industry/hobby shut down, and there are plenty of people (starting with irresponsible GA pilots, like the kid that ran out of fuel) that are working to make that happen.

Every incident, every accident affects the insurance rates of the rest of us, and it affects the regulatory posture. The airlines train pilots to standards, to follow procedures, to minimize judgement calls, making the poorer performers little more than trained monkeys. GA is all about judgement. The poorer performers in GA end up dead. We have met the enemy, and he is us.

We will see user fees. Look at the mad rush to create toll roads everywhere. In my town, they're talking about converting existing roads to toll - it's not popular with anybody but the politicians and those who stand to benefit. Ka-Ching, the price goes up. ATC is a mess, and needs to be fixed, but once it is outsourced it is unlikely to *ever* be subsumed back into government, and it is highly likely it will become sole-source (because the economic costs for the infrastructure are so high). In the end, I see sole-source as little better than the bureaucracy. And on top of that, the FAA will continue to impose impossible requirements. I know of few, if any, government-sponsored IT/systems programs that come in on-time, on-budget. The stories of Acela and the FBI computer systems are a great examples. THere will also be pressure to charge regulatory fees to cover the costs of regulation. Ka-ching. Some agencies already charge fees (FCC, for example).

Aviation is price sensitive. Story in the Winchester, VA paper last week said that avgas sales decreased from 8,345 gallons last March to 5,463 gallons this March. That means folks are flying less out of that airport (or flying less altogether). If AvGas is $3.50 this year and it was $2.90 last year, a good economics guy can estimate what additional cost increases on GA will cause (price elasticity and all that).

We, that's us folks, have to do what we can to keep insurance claims down and the costs down.

Aviation can survive, but we need to get more folks flying well, improve the level of training and judgement, and keep the pressure on to keep it affordable.

 

[pete177]

Sounds to me like all we need is tort reform. I imagine that if every AOPA member wrote their congressman and senator demanding meaningful tort reform that might go a long way to gettin' er done. With a clear republican majority this is probably the best shot we've had in a long time but it may not last long.
I also think that sport pilot may prove to be our salvation as well. If it works aopa and the rest of us can lobby for an increase in weight and speed so as to make it practical for cross country singles at the least, involved in non commercial type flying.
I dont want to see user fees because their not fair considering we pay for it already, but I dont think it'll hurt us much to be coughing up something like 70 bucks a year for flight service and atc support. What really hurts us is the liability cost built into everything from aviation services to engine parts and the regulatory costs of aircraft and parts certifications. Sport pilot is a good first step towards dealing with the regulatory costs, tort reform may very well solve the liability problem for us. One can only hope

Pete

 

[wsuffa]

Sounds to me like all we need is tort reform. I imagine that if every AOPA member wrote their congressman and senator demanding meaningful tort reform that might go a long way to gettin' er done. With a clear republican majority this is probably the best shot we've had in a long time but it may not last long.

I dont want to see user fees because their not fair considering we pay for it already, but I dont think it'll hurt us much to be coughing up something like 70 bucks a year for flight service and atc support. What really hurts us is the liability cost built into everything from aviation services to engine parts and the regulatory costs of aircraft and parts certifications. Sport pilot is a good first step towards dealing with the regulatory costs, tort reform may very well solve the liability problem for us. One can only hope

Pete

We may need tort reform, but it alone is not the answer. We need RESPONSIBILITY. We've created a society focused on "get rich quick", and we've trained people to try and extort money. You know, I don't recall the tort situation being so bad before law firms were allowed to advertise.

You're presuming a fixed annual user fee. If it's done like toll roads, you'll pay per mile (or hour).

In Europe, pilots pay per briefing. Briefings are required. I flew GA out of Milan Linate one time, it was well over $120 before we started the plane. Briefing fee, ATC fee, handling charge, customs/immigration fee, ramp fee. We landed in Switzerland and were required to pay an ATC fee at the tower before leaving. That was equivalent to US $25 or $30. We still saved about $75 on the tank of Avgas even after the ATC fee & ramp fee. At $4.50 per gallon in 2001.

 

[pete177]

We may need tort reform, but it alone is not the answer. We need RESPONSIBILITY. We've created a society focused on "get rich quick", and we've trained people to try and extort money. You know, I don't recall the tort situation being so bad before law firms were allowed to advertise.

You're presuming a fixed annual user fee. If it's done like toll roads, you'll pay per mile (or hour).

In Europe, pilots pay per briefing. Briefings are required. I flew GA out of Milan Linate one time, it was well over $120 before we started the plane. Briefing fee, ATC fee, handling charge, customs/immigration fee, ramp fee. We landed in Switzerland and were required to pay an ATC fee at the tower before leaving. That was equivalent to US $25 or $30. We still saved about $75 on the tank of Avgas even after the ATC fee & ramp fee. At $4.50 per gallon in 2001.

I'm not really sure how you legislate "responsibility" but something like requiring a burden of proof for willful negligence on the part of a manufacturer before a misinformed jury can award the ridiculous punitive damages they seem so willing to award. I still cant get over the vacuum pump award that went to that senator or congressman’s wife even after it was proven that the pump didn’t fail and had nothing to do with the accident. Unless we get meaningful legislative reform in certification and tort we will be even worse off in 10 years than we are now, especially given the rate of decay of the current fleet and the fact that new airplanes are no where near affordable enough to replace what we're losing.

As for user fees, well, I don’t think the Italian model is what anyone had in mind. I believe a Canadian poster stated that it adds up to about 70 bucks a year for him. I don’t know how it works in most of the other countries that have them. My impression is that the FAA, like most other bureaucracies, is primarily concerned with maintaining its own existence. A dead GA is not in its interest so I don’t imagine they would intentionally destroy GA in the long term to rake in exorbitant user fees in the short term. Federal employees will never see any of that money but they will lose their jobs as GA goes down the tubes.

I don’t want to see it privatized. I think that introduces a whole new dynamic that aopa and the nations pilots could quickly lose any influence over. If it means small user fees, say $100 a year to keep that from happening then I'd be for it if those were my only choices. Given the current federal budgetary environment I think user fees (or privatization and then user fees) are inevitable. AOPA can blow alot of smoke about how they're fighting to keep that from happening but in the end something's going to change. No politician can stand up in front of his state and make the case that the majority of his voters should pay for my 100 or 200 times greater use of the system than his non piloting voters. Every time a North West flight calls atc he's calling for a planeload of people. I'm only calling for one. Those people aren’t paying one 100th of what I'm paying; they're paying exactly what I'm paying. It can be argued that I'm getting a free ride. I think we need to get comfortable with the idea that something is going to change.

Oh, by the way, I flew out of stinson from april to august of 2003 and a month or two during the summer of 2004. Your name sounds familiar, I wonder if we've met. I fly a 1964 Mooney M20E...mostly white with a green tail.
Pete

 

[corjulo]

Sounds to me like all we need is tort reform. I imagine that if every AOPA member wrote their congressman and senator demanding meaningful tort reform that might go a long way to gettin' er done. With a clear republican majority this is probably the best shot we've had in a long time but it may not last long.
I also think that sport pilot may prove to be our salvation as well. If it works aopa and the rest of us can lobby for an increase in weight and speed so as to make it practical for cross country singles at the least, involved in non commercial type flying.
I dont want to see user fees because their not fair considering we pay for it already, but I dont think it'll hurt us much to be coughing up something like 70 bucks a year for flight service and atc support. What really hurts us is the liability cost built into everything from aviation services to engine parts and the regulatory costs of aircraft and parts certifications. Sport pilot is a good first step towards dealing with the regulatory costs, tort reform may very well solve the liability problem for us. One can only hope

Pete

We got aviation tort reform in the 90's. I think tort reform, especially when it comes to insurance rates, is a giant scam. There is a compelling argument to be made that consolidation and the deregulation of the insurance industry in the 90s has more to do with the present situation then Jury awards or civil cases. These guys lost their shirts when they got into financial services and now the only way they can make up the difference is by jacking up rates. Remember, The insurance industry is exempt from most anti trust laws. Tort reform? Then how about a repeal of the The McCarran-Ferguson Act!!!!!!!!!

I mean, does anyone think the bankruptcy bill is going to lower credit card rates?

And, don't hold your breath because republicans have control. They have had no trouble at all going to court when it served their personal needs.
This is only the tip of the iceberg. Scrap McCarran-Ferguson Act and let the market fix itself!

http://civilliberty.about.com/gi/dy...=http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/4286

 

[Dan Deutsch]

Re: Is the End of GA Nigh?

GA is in no better/no worse of a position than Medical care.

Boy Dr. B - That certainly is reassuring - ;-(

When one considers the raw number of GA pilots vs. the population I think we are in big trouble. i.e. the percentage of population flying has got to be way down..

The issue is not one of money, there are plenty of folks with money in the US. The issues IMO are utility, perception and ease of use.

Utility - I think this is getting better and better. I think there will be a day when glass cockpits, redundant electrics and smart routing will make the navigating part of flying a breeze. You will use one interface, enter a destination and the box will take care of the details - create the flight plan, send it to the feds and when the reply is recieved give you a countdown timer to take off. All you do is blindly follow instructions cuz that's all you'll need to know. Hit the autopilot after rotation and settle back and relax until the final phase of the approach. Weather will be automatically avoided and there will be very few controllers in the enroute system. The computers will separate all the flights update flight plans command heading changes etc. Safety will be greatly enhanced. Perhaps even the enroute computers will know your fuel state and fuel burn and automatically divert you when low fuel, high headwinds or some other factors result in not having enough fule to get there.

Perception - Old airplanes, airport security, airplane crashes etc, all pile up to create an average public perception that this is dangerous and we shouldn't be doing it. Flying is a challenge reserved for a special few people and quite frankly John Q Public has little use for us. Sure we reach out and tell be about Angel flights etc but until the public thinks that flyuing is as useful as say a 42 foot Fountain we are at risk. We aren't doing much about this in my opinion.

Ease of Use - We know that GA has been getting harder to use. But in real terms Commercial Flying has gotten way more difficult for John Q. It is a real hassle to fly commercial these days. So what? Imagine a day when the personal jet with it's simple systems is so easy to fly that the trip to Grandma's house in Florida is a matter of renting a personal jet one way, getting the family loaded and pressing one button to start it, "one" entry for destination and engage autopilot. Bam 4 hours later you are in Florida with a one way jet booked to take you back next Sunday.

I know it sounds crazy but 100 years ago so was flying. I think the Jetsons age could come.

 

[wsuffa]

I'm not really sure how you legislate "responsibility" but something like requiring a burden of proof for willful negligence on the part of a manufacturer before a misinformed jury can award the ridiculous punitive damages they seem so willing to award. I still cant get over the vacuum pump award that went to that senator or congressman’s wife even after it was proven that the pump didn’t fail and had nothing to do with the accident. Unless we get meaningful legislative reform in certification and tort we will be even worse off in 10 years than we are now, especially given the rate of decay of the current fleet and the fact that new airplanes are no where near affordable enough to replace what we're losing.

You can't legislate responsibility. But you can develop criteria to discourage irresponsible lawsuits. Losing party pays all legal fees. Responsibility must include the user of the device (e.g. if a pilot runs out of fuel, it's not the manufacturers problem), etc.

You still need an ability for redress of grievances.

I don’t want to see it privatized. I think that introduces a whole new dynamic that aopa and the nations pilots could quickly lose any influence over. If it means small user fees, say $100 a year to keep that from happening then I'd be for it if those were my only choices. Given the current federal budgetary environment I think user fees (or privatization and then user fees) are inevitable.

I think the govt is on a very strong push to privatize.

Oh, by the way, I flew out of stinson from april to august of 2003 and a month or two during the summer of 2004. Your name sounds familiar, I wonder if we've met. I fly a 1964 Mooney M20E...mostly white with a green tail.
Pete

Pete, we might have met. I fly a Commander single. Keep it in the T-Hangars.

bill

 

[pete177]

We got aviation tort reform in the 90's. I think tort reform, especially when it comes to insurance rates, is a giant scam. There is a compelling argument to be made that consolidation and the deregulation of the insurance industry in the 90s has more to do with the present situation then Jury awards or civil cases. These guys lost their shirts when they got into financial services and now the only way they can make up the difference is by jacking up rates. Remember, The insurance industry is exempt from most anti trust laws. Tort reform? Then how about a repeal of the The McCarran-Ferguson Act!!!!!!!!!

I mean, does anyone think the bankruptcy bill is going to lower credit card rates?

And, don't hold your breath because republicans have control. They have had no trouble at all going to court when it served their personal needs.
This is only the tip of the iceberg. Scrap McCarran-Ferguson Act and let the market fix itself!

http://civilliberty.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=civilliberty&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tompaine.com%2Ffeature2.cfm%2FID%2F4286

I think the relationships between the center for justice and democracy and and the trial lawyer association is obvious. When people cant make a convincing argument based on the facts of a given situation they tend to attack the messenger or use one off instances to make a point instead of broad based metrics. Don't get me wrong, I think there was definately a time when the tort system made us safer. Classic example would be the changes to the auto industry that it brought about. But, quite frankly the result of all of that change was a marginally more expensive automobile. Well worth the added expense in my view. They were pretty dangerous contraptions The problem today is that its just gone too far. Airplanes and parts aren't marginally more expensive as a result of tort, they are 4 times more expensive than they should be. Call Lycoming and ask them what part of their engine cost is the result of liability. Call Mooney or Piper, see what they have to say. Will there be some measure of industry propaganda in what they tell you? Sure, but I dont think that that negates the very destructive influence the almost un-restraind tort has had on our chosen pastime. The economically destructive process feeds on itself. As prices rise due to liability costs, fewer people buy airplanes. When fewer people buy airplanes we lose the economies of scale that we could other wise achieve. Hence, a Mooney that costs $480,000.
If you really want to know the truth and get beyond all the partisan bullsh*t follow the dollars. Who's getting rich? Are the insurance companies getting rich? Not really. They're generally profitable but not rediculously so, otherwise their stock multiples would be astronomical, and they're not. Are the airplane and parts manufactures getting rich? Hardly. Hmm....lets see....who's that leave? Trial attornys. When a particular career field becomes very profitable people flock to it. Remember the rush to IT as corporations went to pc based systems? 24 year old network managers were making $125,000 a year in 1992. Huge flood of workers brought that down to 40k within a few years. Same thing happend in the early 80's with attornys. At one point there were more law students in school than there were practicing attornys. Why the rush to law school? Because it was viewed as a sure path to wealth. How many more trial attornys are there now compared to when the auto industry was forced to reform? When they manage to convince ill informed jurors to award huge awards, awards that put companies out of business and leave their employees jobless, who pays for that in the end? You do. And in this industry it isnt just by a few percent more per airplane or part, its several hundred percent more.
Now, you may believe everything I've written here is utter non-sense, and thats fine, but like I stated earlier, just follow the dollars and make up your own mind.
Almost forgot to mention how the current tort environment makes us less safe by stifleing technological advancement. Any changes to current industry standard places the manufacturer at greater risk for lawsuit just because its different. How do you innovate in that environment?

http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/7702383.htm

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

"Aviation can survive, but we need to get more folks flying well, improve the level of training and judgement, and keep the pressure on to keep it affordable."

Pilots are already very well trained after they get by the redundancy of their CFIs, FAA Ground Testing & Flight testing. It's just when they decide they're gonna do elsewise, like after they get their various tickets, that most safety problems arise.

 

[Anthony]

11 years ago I did not need liability insurance to work as a free lanced A&P off the tail gate of my truck. 5 years ago I saw the need, the policy cost me $150 for that first year, last year it was $1100 this year it was $13k. as a independant A&P not working under a corporate umbrella. I can not spread that cost over my small customer base. Forcing the service providers out of business in any field will run the cost up to where the small owner operator can't afford to own their aircraft, or keep in the proper condition.

This whole industry is in trouble, due to the lack of interest of the public, sky rocketing prices of fuel, parts, and insurance,which is closing the door to entry level young people. This is an every decreasing spiral into a non existant industry.

Tom. I know the independent A&P and CFI situation is bad, but there are positives that have occurred in GA over the last eleven years that I've had this disease.

1. Tort reform limiting liability for AC mfg was passed in 1994.

2. Cessna started single engine piston mfg again and is still producing.

3. Piper came out of bankruptcy and is still producing even after a devistating hurricane.

4. Cirrus, Diamond and Lancair are producing new, innovative designs which are selling.

5. Mooney has restructured and is mfg aircraft.

6. Tiger is back in production.

7. Light jet mfg like Adam Aircraft and Eclipse are poised for success.

8. Inflation adjusted gas prices are still low and will decline as soon as the oil frenzy has stopped. Oil is already below $50/barrel and falling.

9. I can still fly anwyhere I want except Wash. DC and TFR's. Even NYC is open to GA.

I'm sure there are other positives, maybe others can add to the list.