Is one current, if one got current illegally?

Dr. Bill

Dr. Bill

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Bill Mitchell
Possible scenario: (AHEM)

I was getting close to six months on my IR, and I was in solid IMC, so I asked ATC for a hold (all I was missing for currency), so I stay in currency for the next six months... or so I think.

My last logged hold was on the IR checkride that I failed, 1/12/07. When I took a re-ride on 1/18/07, we did a hold; but, the DPE just wrote "satisfactory completion of IR checkride" (or something very close). He didn't 'log' the hold.

So with regard to my last logged hold, I was, in one way, out of currency (and therefore on an IFR clearance illegally). So if I was THERE illegally, does the hold count, and am I therefore current? Or is this all moot, because I got the IR on 1/18 and did a hold then, even though it wasn't logged, and I stayed current like a good pilot should...:yes:
 
P.S. I'm not worrying about it; it was just something I wondered.
 
you werent illegal, currency for IFR is based on calendar months, not days. you have until the end of July to get current. hold away
 
Wow. Thanks, Tony!

I coulda swore I learned it as a six-month-look-back (i.e. at the DATE).

Cool; Lookit me, bein' all legal-and-current-like! Woohoo!
 
I'm almost out of currency. I had similar concerns with a CFI ride coming up. I was told it's not an issue for the ride so we'll just do an IPC afterward.
 
Plus, fact that the DPE did not log does not mean it did not happen; you can log it, too.

But wait, since the ride was in January, you're jake until end of July anyway!

Don;t you ever have to do any holds in lieu of procedure turns for any of the apps you fly?
 
Many training devices, such as the Elite series of training devices, are legal ways to maintain your IR currency if weather or airplane availability precludes doing the events in the air. Lots of flight schools have them.

To be loggable you need to use the training device under the supervision of an instructor.
 
Heya Spike! Sorry we couldn't put something together with Ken - maybe next time...

You know, I've logged 150 hrs since I got my instrument ticket, and 24 of it in actual conditions (including 14 loggable approaches); And I've never done the HILoPT! It's either vectors, or just a procedure turn - without a hold. Obviously it's been six months. Go figure.

I always thought ATC just liked me... Seriously, I'm always going somewhere on some kind of time schedule, so I'm usually in a hurry to get on the ground.
 
Well, back to the original question, regarless of the moot status of the question: If you get current illegally, are you still current?
 
What ever happened to fly what you can, log what you need? Just kidding. But really, that may be something that is on the honor system. My question is this, if you drop for a hold, can you fly with an instructor and do a turn in holding then and then be current, or must you accomplish an entire review?
 
AWACSEng said:
What ever happened to fly what you can, log what you need? Just kidding. But really, that may be something that is on the honor system. My question is this, if you drop for a hold, can you fly with an instructor and do a turn in holding then and then be current, or must you accomplish an entire review?
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It depends on what you mean by "drop". Are you talking about the seventh month or the thirteenth? You have an additional 6 months after you lose currency to regain said currency before an IPC would be necessary.

As I understand it, assuming you have 6 approaches (both precision and non-precision) and some "tracking", you obviously just need the hold to be current. If you grab any old safety pilot you can head out and run through a hold under the hood and you'd be current again. No review necessary.
 
Dean V said:
Rule one of log books, if no one wrote it down, it never happened.
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Rule two, nowhere does it say you have to write it down on the day you do it.

The logbook is your word, so if you swear you did a hold and can squeeze it into the space the examiner left for that flight, you've logged it.
 
SkyHog said:
Well, back to the original question, regarless of the moot status of the question: If you get current illegally, are you still current?
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I'd say sure. If you stole an airplane and kidnapped a safety pilot to get current, you'd be current...

... although it's usually not the smartest idea to be carrying around evidence of a crime (or FAR violation) in your logbook.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I had a wonderful time standing outside the hilton in downtown Waco at 3 am in my jammies along with 150 complete strangers...
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So my bomb threat worked?!? :D

Hmmm... that's where the President's staffers stay when He is in residence at Crawford. I have also attended meetings there. Real garden spot, ain't it? :goofy:

Next Texas Time, you don't get off so easy.
 
SCCutler said:
So my bomb threat worked?!? :D

Hmmm... that's where the President's staffers stay when He is in residence at Crawford. I have also attended meetings there. Real garden spot, ain't it? :goofy:

Next Texas Time, you don't get off so easy.
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Great...Spike just got our little website listed on the terrorist watch list. Thanks Spike! :goofy:
 
midlifeflyer said:
I'd say sure. If you stole an airplane and kidnapped a safety pilot to get current, you'd be current...

... although it's usually not the smartest idea to be carrying around evidence of a crime (or FAR violation) in your logbook.
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It's nice to know there are at least some alternative options!
 
Dr. Bill said:
I was getting close to six months on my IR
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Another part of it - your first 6 calendar months after getting the rating give you all the privileges thereof.
Actually, that cancels out my previous answer. The checkride is supposed to check your proficiency at all the tasks, so no need to log each individual one.
 
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This question popped-up on the red board a couple of months ago. The consensus was that you can become re-current illegally without a safety pilot provided that an IPC wasn't required.
 
tlglenn said:
This question popped-up on the red board a couple of months ago. The consensus was that you can become re-current illegally without a safety pilot provided that an IPC wasn't required.
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Well, if you're going to do that, why not just go back and write in enough instrument events in the six month preceding the preceding six months so you didn't need an IPC?;)

In any event, I like Mark's answer best -- it's never a good idea to create proof of your own misdoings, especially since the Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination does not apply to records which are required by law to be kept, like pilot logbooks (See Adminstrator v. Jones, EA-3876, and cases digested at U.S.C.A. Const. Amend. 5, Self-Incrimination, Note 422).
 
By drop I mean if you are non current, you are not legal to fly IFR without someone who is current, correct? So even though your rating is still legal, you are not untill said currency is regained. As a side note, I am not an instrument pilot, so these are more question then they are opinions. Just trying to broaden my own knowledge.
 
AWACSEng said:
By drop I mean if you are non current, you are not legal to fly IFR without someone who is current, correct? So even though your rating is still legal, you are not untill said currency is regained. As a side note, I am not an instrument pilot, so these are more question then they are opinions. Just trying to broaden my own knowledge.
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Neither am I...but I'm studying. :)

To clarify, after 6 calendar months you are not legal to exercise the privileges of your instrument ticket...but you do NOT have to get an IPC until after the 12th calendar month. Between 6 and 12 you can go up with a safety pilot and/or instructor (outside of an IPC) and become current.
 
FlyNE said:
(outside of an IPC) and become current.
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Ah, yes. That's what I was forgetting. Being married to a pilot, it's always been easier to go up with her than to go up with an instructor, so I started to associate instructor with IPC. But, it's probably (definitively?) better to get an IPC every 6 mos than to just meet the minimums, so the instructor route is probably safer anyway.
 
So is an IPC like and entire Checkride or is it similar to a BFR for the instrument rated?
 
AWACSEng said:
By drop I mean if you are non current, you are not legal to fly IFR without someone who is current, correct?
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If you are not IFR-current per 61.57(c), you cannot act as PIC of an aircraft under IFR. You can, however, fly a plane under IFR as long as someone else is acting as PIC. That would mean finding either an instructor (preferred choice), or an instrument-rated pilot willing to let you fly while s/he accepts full responsibility for whatever you do. I strongly recommend against the latter, since a non-current pilot may get overwhelmed in IMC, and the record suggests that if that happens, you're better off with someone trained to tell when you're getting overwhelmed and what to do about it from the right seat than with just some other IFR-rated pilot who may never have flown IFR from the right seat (cross-cockpit IFR can be tricky).

And that's not the same as going up in VMC under VFR with a hood and a safety pilot (who doesn't even need an instrument rating) and flying through the events necessary to get current again -- that's both legal and within the bounds of what I will recommend as long as you're not so noncurrent that all you'd be doing is practicing bad instrument flying, in which case an instrument-rated instructor is your better choice.
 
its essentially the flying portion of the IR Checkride. and you must perform to PTS standards to pass.
 
AWACSEng said:
So is an IPC like and entire Checkride or is it similar to a BFR for the instrument rated?
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The list of events the FAA wants on an IPC is in the Additional Instrument Rating Desired table on page 16 of the IR PTS. The list includes about 75% of the flight portion of an IR practical test.

It is not clear whether this is a regulatory requirement or not (I believe the FAA is addressing that in the proposed Part 61 changes), but even if it isn't, for liability reasons, a CFI-I (of whatever category) would be most unwise not to accomplish all the listed tasks, because you do not want to have to answer this question in court: "So, Mr. Instructor, you signed off an IPC on my widowed client's late husband even though you didn't check him on all the tasks the FAA recommended?"
 
Thank you for the responses. I've run out of questions that I probably could have looked up myself. Real world experience is sometimes easier to comprehend than reading the reg though.
 
gprellwitz said:
Ah, yes. That's what I was forgetting. Being married to a pilot, it's always been easier to go up with her than to go up with an instructor, so I started to associate instructor with IPC. But, it's probably (definitively?) better to get an IPC every 6 mos than to just meet the minimums, so the instructor route is probably safer anyway.
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Most certainly. Though, I'd say that the safest AND easiest method is to fly enough that currency is never an issue. :yes:
 
FlyNE said:
Most certainly. Though, I'd say that the safest AND easiest method is to fly enough that currency is never an issue. :yes:
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If you throw in the word "safest," I'll disagree with that, and I think the FAA does, too. After all, the folks who get the most instrument flying practice of all are airline captains, and they have to get an instrument check every six months no matter how much they've flown. And since you never have to worry about how many of what you've flown in what conditions, the IPC may also be the "easiest" method of compliance.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you throw in the word "safest," I'll disagree with that, and I think the FAA does, too. After all, the folks who get the most instrument flying practice of all are airline captains, and they have to get an instrument check every six months no matter how much they've flown. And since you never have to worry about how many of what you've flown in what conditions, the IPC may also be the "easiest" method of compliance.
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While I agree, in principal, that the airlines have a much better track record of safety than we do, I find it difficult to draw too many parallels. After all, wouldn't it then be more safe to require two crew members in all GA airplanes? Of course it would, but we have to focus on matters more relevant to the operation of our aircraft. There simply aren't 50+ souls on board with us...and we're the ones paying for the training.




So let's look at a 17 month block of time from two different pilots.

1) Took his instrument check ride 17 months ago. Flew 2.0 actual and 2-3 approaches between that time and his IPC 11 months ago. Flew the same between that IPC and his most recent IPC 5 months ago...but hasn't flown hard IFR since then.

2) Took her instrument check ride 17 months ago and flys IFR often enough that she hasn't had to worry about currency (let's say 10-12 hours and 2-3 approaches a month). Every couple of months she'll fly a hold in lieu of a procedure turn to take care of that requirement.

Both are current and legal. Assuming you were just a plain old passenger, you'd rather fly with pilot number 1?
 
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It depends. Does number 2 fly the same approaches over and over? Just cause you get actual time, doesn't mean you are as proficient or current as one could be. On the other hand if she is doing everything to include ILS, LOC, NDB's(if available), and a circle every now and then, sure why not go with her. What I'm trying to get at is if one does not get a variety, I would feel more comfortable with someone who got the whole deal from an IP or examiner.
 
FlyNE said:
Most certainly. Though, I'd say that the safest AND easiest method is to fly enough that currency is never an issue. :yes:
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That's really only "safest" for the CFI-I that doesn't have to do a signoff.

I've got a guy that I train every six months...he bought a Baron, got his multi rating, and got checked out in the airplane. 18 months later, he was a little short on his 6 approaches, etc., so he called me up. We decided to do an IPC. He had been flying 300 hours per year, all under IFR.

He could do ILS's and circle-to-lands really well. Everything else was VERY substandard...Santa Claus wouldn't have signed off an IPC. Yet he was technically still current, and obviously very active.

It takes a LOT of effort for a pilot to maintain all-around proficiency on his own. When we only perform certain maneuvers on rare occasions, we have no idea that our level of proficiency has slipped until we REALLY NEED that proficiency. Flying with an instructor periodically (more often than every 2 years) can help point out those areas, so that at the very least we can work on them ourselves again.

Fly safe!

David
 
Dr. Bill said:
Wow. Thanks, Tony!

I coulda swore I learned it as a six-month-look-back (i.e. at the DATE).

Cool; Lookit me, bein' all legal-and-current-like! Woohoo!
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Bill, I gotta say, I sure do enjoy readin' your posts! ;)
 
And the other thing about an IPC is the partial panel work. With a little bit of luck, you hopefully don't have any recent actual experience even if you are legal.
 
Dr. Bill said:
My last logged hold was on the IR checkride that I failed, 1/12/07. When I took a re-ride on 1/18/07, we did a hold; but, the DPE just wrote "satisfactory completion of IR checkride" (or something very close). He didn't 'log' the hold.
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No need to log the hold. You did an instrument rating practical test. A hold maneuver is one of the required maneuvers to demonstrate on this practical test. End of story.
 
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