Is it just me....

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PPC1052

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or do the IFR written exam questions really have much to do with real IFR flying?

I have been studying and taking some practice tests, and I have to say that I am pretty frustrated with how little relevance so many of the questions seem to have any to real IFR flying. It would be okay if the questions weren't simultaneously pedantic and inane.
 
PPC1052 said:
or do the IFR written exam questions really have much to do with real IFR flying?

I have been studying and taking some practice tests, and I have to say that I am pretty frustrated with how little relevance so many of the questions seem to have any to real IFR flying. It would be okay if the questions weren't simultaneously pedantic and inane.
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I have noticed the same thing. Im wondering how accurate the practice tests are compared to the actual test now that they dont let the prep companies have the real questions.
 
PPC1052 said:
or do the IFR written exam questions really have much to do with real IFR flying?

I have been studying and taking some practice tests, and I have to say that I am pretty frustrated with how little relevance so many of the questions seem to have any to real IFR flying. It would be okay if the questions weren't simultaneously pedantic and inane.
Click to expand...

Need several examples in order to decide. I think they're fair game, but haven't seen the very latest.

dtuuri
 
I haven't even considered test prep at my stage in IFR training but, from my understanding, there is a lot wrong with the IFR written exam.

But, also from my understanding, if you can't pass that test then you probably didn't study enough (for the test).
 
How can you folks criticize the instrument written? Don't you know that some day while flying an aircraft it will be critical for you to look down at a bunch of aircraft and then visualize what their CDI's will look like? It'll be a life-and-death situation I tell you and you'll just have to get it right!

Sheesh, some people!
 
So now the tests are actually tests. Instead of just memorizing the correct answers ,you have to study the material involved. Might make for safer pilots.
 
i found some of the departure procedure, approach plate questions, and lost comm questions to be useful. These will most likely be on your oral. It was for me at least
 
frfly172 said:
So now the tests are actually tests. Instead of just memorizing the correct answers ,you have to study the material involved. Might make for safer pilots.
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If they are real test questions, I would welcome that. Please don't suggest that I'm unhappy with something that requires thought and genuine understanding as opposed to rote memorization, because nothing could be further from the truth.
 
The current test has been essentially unchanged in concept for over 40 years, and I agree it has little relevance to actual IFR flying. The FAA is close to releasing a completely new replacement test -- we'll see what it looks like. But for now, just memorize the material, take the test, and then start learning how IFR flying really works.
 
Ron Levy said:
But for now, just memorize the material, take the test, and then start learning how IFR flying really works.
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That's what what I'm working on doing (before Donn H. calls me again).
 
dtuuri said:
So has the ATC system and IFR regulations. Sounds like the test is right up to date.
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But the charts and other materials have changed, often dramatically. For example, having someone learn the SIAP format from half a century ago just to take the written test before using the current format to fly is absurd -- in some cases, even the basic terminology has changed. In addition, the current test is in many ways hardware-specific (e.g., BDHI's), and it's silly to test on displays no longer found in most cockpits while ignoring many which are in general use.
 
Clark1961 said:
How can you folks criticize the instrument written? Don't you know that some day while flying an aircraft it will be critical for you to look down at a bunch of aircraft and then visualize what their CDI's will look like? It'll be a life-and-death situation I tell you and you'll just have to get it right!

Sheesh, some people!
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Yeah, that's right! You should have an instrument type rating that only allows you to fly the avionics you were tested with, like a "centerline thrust" limitation for multiengine pilots. Why need to know what a CDI is for anyway when all you need are dual independently-powered GPS moving map displays, a functioning autopilot and an airplane parachute!

dtuuri
 
Ron Levy said:
The current test has been essentially unchanged in concept for over 40 years, and I agree it has little relevance to actual IFR flying. The FAA is close to releasing a completely new replacement test -- we'll see what it looks like. But for now, just memorize the material, take the test, and then start learning how IFR flying really works.
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Are we still on a 2014-ish timeline for the new test to take effect? I've pretty much decided to take my test in 2015 and really hope to get the updated test. I'd rather spend 100 hours studying practical test items than 20 hours studying useless topics for an outdated test.
 
dtuuri said:
So has the ATC system and IFR regulations. Sounds like the test is right up to date.

dtuuri
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Yup, you're exactly right. Nothing has changed in 40 years...nothing at all.
 
Ron Levy said:
But for now, just memorize the material, take the test, and then start learning how IFR flying really works.
Click to expand...

Too late. I have already well into the process of learing how IFR flying really works. Now I am going back and trying to knock out the written test requirement. I am just finding so little of it applies to the real world, hence my level of frustration.

How long until the new test format comes out?
 
PPC1052 said:
Too late. I have already well into the process of learing how IFR flying really works. Now I am going back and trying to knock out the written test requirement. I am just finding so little of it applies to the real world, hence my level of frustration.

How long until the new test format comes out?
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If you think the IA test is a pain just wait until you take the commercial...near as I can tell you're just supposed to guess as to the thought behind some of the questions. The worst ones have to be the emergency off-airport landing in the dark. In the real world the correct choice will depend on circumstances and the FAA questions are typically silent on circumstances.
 
Clark1961 said:
How can you folks criticize the instrument written? Don't you know that some day while flying an aircraft it will be critical for you to look down at a bunch of aircraft and then visualize what their CDI's will look like? It'll be a life-and-death situation I tell you and you'll just have to get it right!

Sheesh, some people!
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Don't forget knowing which way to turn the knob on the RMI.
 
Clark1961 said:
If you think the IA test is a pain just wait until you take the commercial...near as I can tell you're just supposed to guess as to the thought behind some of the questions. The worst ones have to be the emergency off-airport landing in the dark. In the real world the correct choice will depend on circumstances and the FAA questions are typically silent on circumstances.
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I passed the Commercial written a few weeks ago and I'm starting training next week. This will be interesting
 
jordane93 said:
i found some of the departure procedure, approach plate questions, and lost comm questions to be useful. These will most likely be on your oral. It was for me at least
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If only the charts, figures and illustrations were readable.
 
PPC1052 said:
How long until the new test format comes out?
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Well, according to our good friend, Bob Gardner of "Say Again, Please" fame, an indication of when may be on the ASA update page.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1341611&postcount=25

If I am looking at the right information, it seems like the "next update" will be February 2014. http://www.asa2fly.com/FAA-Knowledge-Exams-W22.aspx It's unclear if the update is just a regular ASA update of their database of questions, or if it will be to address a major change in the FAA written exam.
 
AggieMike88 said:
That's what what I'm working on doing (before Donn H. calls me again).
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Someone ratted me out..... :yes: 10 minutes after I posted this, Donn H. from PIC calls me..... Good discussion and we're getting closer to setting up the training.
 
PPC1052 said:
or do the IFR written exam questions really have much to do with real IFR flying?
Click to expand...

I am going to go out on a limb and say YES..the IFR system is more than just flying in clouds, its as much about knowing what things like MEA,MOCA,MCA,DME,ADF,RCO,ETE,ADM,CRM,ARTCC,OROCA,ADIZ,TCAN,VORTAC,ASOS,AWOS,HIWAS are and how and when to use them. The sections on instruments couldn't be more connected to actual IFR flying (crosscheck, interpret, control) and you should be able to answer those without even having to stop and think.

Trying not to lecture here but when I took my Written Exam a few months ago after spending 6-8 months studying I thought the same thing. But when it came time to take the exam (after consistently getting +90% on the sportys exams) I noticed that all the pieces were coming together about the IFR system. It was actually an eye opener and still is.

So now I can go back and answer the questions not because of memory, but because I know the concepts behind them (most of the time). This may save your butt when it comes to digesting things like the weather charts or how to read winds aloft charts. Sure you can memorize the answers, but why? When you are flying and planning you wont see boxes with ABCD choices on the windshield, you will have to know how to process and apply it, to answer your OWN question.

Believe me, I know its ALOT of information to digest, but when you walk into the exam room knowing why things are the way they are there will be no worries of not passing. The biggest reason for the exam is to test your general knowledge of all the subjects the FAA feels are needed to fly safety in the IFR system.

Also now when I get in planes with an ADF or DME I know what it is and how it is used in the system instead of saying "whats that thing for" or "I will never own a plane with that in it so why do I need to learn about it".
 
Seems the relevancy of some questions are directly proportional to the equipment in the panel. Given the panel in the archer I trained in, even the NDB questions were relevant.
 
MyassisDragon said:
I am going to go out on a limb and say YES..the IFR system is more than just flying in clouds...
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Well said my friend. Too much bitchin' and not enough studying goin' on these days. Most changes people whine about are shallow cosmetics, like how a chart looks in the supplement. They wouldn't still use an obsolete departure chart to answer an obsolete question, they'd still use it if the answer doesn't depend on how it looks, IMO.

dtuuri
 
When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
Buck up- you're a pilot.

Want some cheese with that whine?
 
What I think is odd about IFR training is that the student is only required to do only one IFR X-C. I guess it's a license to learn...
 
Ron Levy said:
The current test has been essentially unchanged in concept for over 40 years, and I agree it has little relevance to actual IFR flying. The FAA is close to releasing a completely new replacement test -- we'll see what it looks like. But for now, just memorize the material, take the test, and then start learning how IFR flying really works.
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Haven't seen an IR written for 25 years but at least in 1987 when I took mine that's sure how it worked. Just memorize the answers to the 600 possible questions and then take the test before you forget it all (got a 94 on mine :D). After that's out of the way then get with your CFII and learn how to fly IFR.
 
dtuuri said:
Here's a link to a free database of questions taken from FAA's website over the last few years: http://www.touringmachine.com/Tests/index.php?cat=IRA .

Good to "see you" again John, welcome aboard! :)

dtuuri
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Followed the link; the answer to the one about the airspace class above Bryce Canyon Apt was kind of a no-brainer (didn't even have to look at the chart), the next one.....about the percentage of reduction of lift & increase in drag?? I see things haven't changed much in 25 years, prob'ly still be best to just memorize all the answers.

Good to see you again too Dave.
 
MyassisDragon said:
I am going to go out on a limb and say YES..the IFR system is more than just flying in clouds, its as much about knowing what things like MEA,MOCA,MCA,DME,ADF,RCO,ETE,ADM,CRM,ARTCC,OROCA,ADIZ,TCAN,VORTAC,ASOS,AWOS,HIWAS are and how and when to use them. The sections on instruments couldn't be more connected to actual IFR flying (crosscheck, interpret, control) and you should be able to answer those without even having to stop and think.
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Look, this is the stuff that I think it should focus on. The crap I am talking about are the questions like:

(Refer to Figure 143 above) The heading on a remote indicating compass is 5 degrees to the left of that desired. What action is required to move the desired heading under the heading reference?
a. Select the free gyro mode and depress the clockwise heading drive button.
b. Select the slaved gyro mode and depress the clockwise heading drive button.
c. Select the free gyro mode and depress the counter-clockwise heading drive button.
 
How about:

Which is true? Motivations
Blank.png

A. should be obvious to be useful.
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B. must be tangible to be effective.
Blank.png

C. may be very subtle and difficult to identify.
 
Ron Levy said:
But the charts and other materials have changed, often dramatically. For example, having someone learn the SIAP format from half a century ago just to take the written test before using the current format to fly is absurd -- in some cases, even the basic terminology has changed. In addition, the current test is in many ways hardware-specific (e.g., BDHI's), and it's silly to test on displays no longer found in most cockpits while ignoring many which are in general use.
Click to expand...
Sounds like the FAA test folks are right on par with the Coast Guard merchant marine test folks.
 
PPC1052 said:
How about:

Which is true? Motivations
Blank.png

A. should be obvious to be useful.
Blank.png

B. must be tangible to be effective.
Blank.png

C. may be very subtle and difficult to identify.
Click to expand...
My 40+ years as a an instructor tells me if you're going to be an effective instructor, this one has practical value. OTOH, the button-pushing differences between a two-switch and a 3-button slaving control are not appropriate for the IR written any more than the differences in switchology for a KLN-94 vs GNS430.

One point I'll make about the FOI material (from which the above question was taken) is that it seemed like garbage when I took that test in 1972, but over the years of teaching, I've come to see the wisdom and importance of it.
 
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PPC1052 said:
Look, this is the stuff that I think it should focus on. The crap I am talking about are the questions like:

(Refer to Figure 143 above) The heading on a remote indicating compass is 5 degrees to the left of that desired. What action is required to move the desired heading under the heading reference?
a. Select the free gyro mode and depress the clockwise heading drive button.
b. Select the slaved gyro mode and depress the clockwise heading drive button.
c. Select the free gyro mode and depress the counter-clockwise heading drive button.
Click to expand...

:rofl: I got that one on my actual exam!! could not tell you if I got it right though, but I think its B cause if its remote then it would be slaved??

Now I understand what you are saying, at first I thought you were frustrated with the majority of the 3000 or so possible questions, but it may be only small percentage. The one thing I did that helped keep me from going crazy was not to spend too much time in those areas.

I jumped around and focused most of my efforts in areas that had the most questions using the Study Buddy cause the chance of getting questions was higher due to the increased volume. I also felt these were areas that more relevant to the exam.

If I remember the areas with more possible questions were:
FAR 91
Instrument approaches & Approach charts
Weather Briefing, Hazardous Forecasts, Theory ect.
Aircraft performance
L-Chart
VOR navigation

I figured If I could Nail the major areas then I would have room for error on the less applicable areas.

I ended up taking my exam 4 months later than planned cause I just could not get my feet under me with everything I needed to have down cold:mad2: and consistently get above 80 on the trial tests.
 
Ron Levy said:
One point I'll make about the FOI material (from which the above question was taken) is that it seemed like garbage when I took that test in 1972, but over the years of teaching, I've come to see the wisdom and importance of it.
Click to expand...

Wait a minute. Isnt that the Commercial Exam? :confused:
Maybe this is where some of the confusion lies, I thought we were talking about the Instrument Exam.
 
PPC1052 said:
Look, this is the stuff that I think it should focus on. The crap I am talking about are the questions like:

(Refer to Figure 143 above) The heading on a remote indicating compass is 5 degrees to the left of that desired. What action is required to move the desired heading under the heading reference?
a. Select the free gyro mode and depress the clockwise heading drive button.
b. Select the slaved gyro mode and depress the clockwise heading drive button.
c. Select the free gyro mode and depress the counter-clockwise heading drive button.
Click to expand...
And the problem is....? Since the remote compass shows an aircraft heading 5° left of desired, the compass card has drifted right causing a clockwise card error. Manually slave the card back left or counter-clockwise. (Instrument Flying Handbook p 3-15, Remote Indicating Compass.) You're s'posed to read and get tested on the "books" not the "booklet of test questions".

dtuuri
 
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