Is it illegal to fly without a current afd and sectional?

[dmccormack]

Correct. Perhaps I didn't make that clear.

I was being more direct.

 

[PittsDriver]

Put it this way - if you land and hop out of your airplane and are greeted immediately by a FSDO guy wanting to do a ramp check, they will not (and should not) ask you for a current chart. Just your and the airplanes credentials.

 

[skidoo]

Do you really believe the traffic cop thinks you are innocent when he writes the ticket? ever go to traffic court and try to prove different?

The point is, it doesn't matter what the traffic cop believes after a ticket is written. It matters that I have a choice to plead guilty and take it at that, or to have a trial by judge or jury. And, then it matters only what the judge or jury believes. And, it matters what is the truth and circumstances of the case.

 

[gprellwitz]

Thanks for the quote!

[...]
Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air. The specific form of the evidence can vary, but a specific aircraft must be identified through IOPs. A supporting IOP will be a copy of aircraft registration data from the Integrated Safety Information System (ISIS). [Note: Ultralights are not aircraft, they are vehicles, with their own definition under 14 CFR part 103.]

And this is an example of why the FAR's are complicated. In what way aren't ultralights "a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air"? Knowledge of the exception can be rather important.

g. Sixth Element. The sixth and final element in this example requires evidence that the endangerment was to the life or property of another. If the above gear-up landing example is in a rented aircraft, the evidence to prove this element could be an ISIS report showing that the owner is another. Evidence of a passenger in the aircraft would also support this element, as the passenger is another. If an aircraft flown solo was entirely owned by the violator, and if there is no nearby property or persons to be endangered, there very well may be no violation.
[...]

And this was illuminating to me as a renter. So anytime I'm in a rented plane, I satisfy the sixth element of the regulation ipso facto, whereas I wouldn't were I flying my own plane. Wow!

 

[Dr. O]

OK, so far I count 371 angels dancing on the head of this particular pin...

Yes, you need to have gathered all 'pertinent' information required for the flight, any flight... A night VFR ride requires more pertinent information than an hour in the pattern... A long IFR cross country requires a lot more pertinent information, etc...

The hard part is if/when the brown stuff hits the fan did you have enough 'pertinent' information to refute the inspectors formal charges against you?

The answer to that is not simple...

If they are intent on doing a "Hoover" on you, then no amount of information is pertinent enough to refute the charges... You are going to be permanently suspended, fined, whatever... It has been this way since the days of Babylonian administrators nailing poor old Hasaan for not paying his donkey tax before noon the the holy day of the deflowering of the virgins...

If they do not have an agenda on you, and you did in good faith have the pertinent information that the reasonable pilot would have gathered for that flight, then you will get an mere administrative slap on the wrist - check ride, short suspension, whatever... Fighting them on this is more painful than taking the slap (usually) for us Part 91 folks...

Avoiding all the inspectors in the first place is - priceless...

denny-o

 

[W. Stewart]

iPad + Foreflight for the win!

As long as I remember to update it at cycle change-over, and the thing is in the cockpit with me, I'm never without current charts.

I, too, use Foreflight now, but I have found some interesting situations where the charts scanned in leave out information at the overlap of charts. Go into VFR Sectional map view, search for CAE to center the chart on the Columbia VOR, and now tell me the name, identifier, and other info of both the Class C airport and the smaller airport just ENE of it. You will find that all that has been deleted due to the overlap. To find this, you must toggle to the Low Altitude IFR chart, which has a different overlap pattern. Not that big of thing, but, still, wanted to demonstrate that.

Also, with regard to Foreflight, I would still caution you to have at least reasonably current charts as a backup in case the iPAD fails. (I carry somewhat recent WAC's as well as a friend's just expired L-charts and approach books.

Wells

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Thanks for the quote!

And this is an example of why the FAR's are complicated. In what way aren't ultralights "a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air"? Knowledge of the exception can be rather important.

And this was illuminating to me as a renter. So anytime I'm in a rented plane, I satisfy the sixth element of the regulation ipso facto, whereas I wouldn't were I flying my own plane. Wow!

I noticed that ultralight thing too. Crazy. So if your employer didn't reimburse you for airplane flights, Grant, take your ultralight 'vehicle' and claim use of personal vehicle mileage. ;-)

On the renter vs owned, that was news to me as well. I'd always considered it to be life or property of others exterior to the airplane. So if you have passengers, family or not, you also satisfy item 6. As to owning your own airplane getting you off the hook, notice the example said 'entirely owned'. If the bank has a note on it, or you are partners with others, you are still not off the hook.

As to current charts, it is prudent to have them, whether in paper or electronic format. Having them, however, is only a prerequisite to using and being familiar with them. If you have current charts on board, but didn't look at them and land without talking to the newly commissioned tower at that airport you've flown to for ten years and that 'has always been a CTAF field', be prepared for a violation.

Not having an iPad yet, I use WacTac.com for my chart subscription.

 

[denverpilot]

I, too, use Foreflight now, but I have found some interesting situations where the charts scanned in leave out information at the overlap of charts. Go into VFR Sectional map view, search for CAE to center the chart on the Columbia VOR, and now tell me the name, identifier, and other info of both the Class C airport and the smaller airport just ENE of it. You will find that all that has been deleted due to the overlap. To find this, you must toggle to the Low Altitude IFR chart, which has a different overlap pattern. Not that big of thing, but, still, wanted to demonstrate that.

Yep, have seen quite a bit of that in overlap areas where a Sectional and a Terminal Area Chart cover the same spot. I wish there was a way to "force" one chart or the other in an overlap area at times.

Also, with regard to Foreflight, I would still caution you to have at least reasonably current charts as a backup in case the iPAD fails. (I carry somewhat recent WAC's as well as a friend's just expired L-charts and approach books.

Agreed. I do. I just don't update them with the regularity I once did. I also could (in a pinch) use ForeFlight on the iPhone which is always on my person or nearby due to work/on-call obligations.

My recent acquisition is a pair of RAM mount kits, which provides (when disassembled since they're modular), the suction cup mount, one with the yoke clamp mount, iPhone and iPad holders and associated attachment arms. Going to play with it and see if I like the iPad on the yoke, or if it's too big and blocks the view of too many things, and various combinations of where to attach things so I have a consistent "locked down" place for both devices. iPad running Foreflight, iPhone handy for E6B type stuff (still carry a real E6B in the flight bag), timers, checklists, W&B prior to flights, weather (since I'm too cheap to pay for the 3G service on the iPad other than for maybe a long trip), etc etc etc.

Will send photos eventually. Weather has been too cruddy to fly this weekend and didn't feel like going to the hangar just to play with the mounts. Maybe I will today though. Fire up the generator and heater and check out our new plastic panels, new instruments, etc. (The airplane just came home from the avionics shop, detailed in another thread.)

 

[midlifeflyer]

Actually, you have no right to a jury trial in many states and in the federal system for misdemeanors either,

True enough. That's the flip-side of

careless driving in many states is a misdemeanor - a criminal offense that requires the right to a jury trial.

Also, "careless driving" is not just a petty offense in a number of states since it's generally a greater offense than just a moving violation

In Massachusetts, for example, it carries up to two years in jail, while, as I recall, in Colorado a first offense is a Class 2 misdemeanor traffic offense which can carry up to 90 days with the ability to demand a jury trial.

 

[skidoo]

I sat on a Jury once where the charge was "improper passing", in a no passing zone. My first impression was this was petty, calling for a jury trial. But, we found him "Not Guilty"... It is not always a slam dunk for the ticket giver...

 

[zaitcev]

I'd rather fly with someone like that, no charts, than a clueless numb-nuts fumbling with charts and books all the time (oops, just described myself!).

My primary instructor remembered every frequency. I gave up on remembering and started preparing cheat sheets and even home-made airport diagrams. They are small enough to fit on kneeboard without much flipping. After some practice it gets pretty easy, for local area flights anyway. I have a current A/FD in the bag just in case, but never had to resort to it.

-- Pete

 

[Ddayle]

Do you really believe the traffic cop thinks you are innocent when he writes the ticket? ever go to traffic court and try to prove different?

Yes, and I have won more than once. If I contest it I usually have the evidence and I have researched the law. I win most of the one's I contest. If I am guilty I shut up & pay the fine. Dave P.S. I do not fly without a current sectional or terminal chart. DR

 

[ejensen]

Yes, and I have won more than once. If I contest it I usually have the evidence and I have researched the law. I win most of the one's I contest. If I am guilty I shut up & pay the fine. Dave P.S. I do not fly without a current sectional or terminal chart. DR

I haven't had that much practice.

 

[sba55]

Do you really believe the traffic cop thinks you are innocent when he writes the ticket? ever go to traffic court and try to prove different?

Yes. Twice, actually. The last time was on a red light violation. I won, and the judge even said something like "well, I do believe you actually committed the violation, but since there isn't enough evidence, I'm finding you not guilty". This wasn't a surprising outcome to me at all since the cop was in the opposite lane of traffic and could therefore only claim that my light had to be red based on his light being green.

Another time, I was accused of driving without license, insurance, and registration. That was a completely bogus charge and I suspect the cop just wanted a reason to go back to the station. Of course, this was dismissed without me even saying a word.


In many of these cases, the one accusing you of something doesn't actually know the law well enough. I've been accused of misdemeanor "driving in the wrong lane of traffic on a divided highway" when I wasn't in the wrong lane nor on a divided highway (it was a one way street). This wouldn't be different.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I, too, use Foreflight now, but I have found some interesting situations where the charts scanned in leave out information at the overlap of charts. Go into VFR Sectional map view, search for CAE to center the chart on the Columbia VOR, and now tell me the name, identifier, and other info of both the Class C airport and the smaller airport just ENE of it. You will find that all that has been deleted due to the overlap. To find this, you must toggle to the Low Altitude IFR chart, which has a different overlap pattern. Not that big of thing, but, still, wanted to demonstrate that.

Wells,

Thanks - I passed that along. I've been told that they're working on a solution to the few overlap issues that there are.

I like the IFR chart trick - Another one you can do is to hold your finger down over the airport, and when the touch-planning box pops up, touch the little blue arrow to the right to bring up the airport information:

 

[poadeleted20]

I think there is still room for some common sense on this - if all you do is pattern work at your home airport, then there really is no point in buying a new sectional and AFD every few months.

And when someone prangs it in the middle of your home airport's only runway while you're on downwind, and the field is closed for longer than you have fuel, how do you get somewhere else?

 

[poadeleted20]

I think what you intended was 91.13 (Careless and Reckless), however I can't see how not having up to date charts could invoke that regulation.

How about if you flew into the guy wires of a really big TV tower that's on the current sectional but not the old one you're using?

 

[poadeleted20]

Although I am still just a student, I did go to the minor additional expense of using Sporty's subscription services so I would automatically get the latest local sectionals and A/FD. So far the updates have arrived in the mail on the dates the old ones expired - not bad service.

If you subscribe, the sectionals from the FAA's AeroNav office arrive a week to ten days ahead -- with no delivery charge. And if they don't get there, they FedEx replacements overnight at no extra charge. That was my source for 20 years until I got my iPad/Foreflight.

 

[poadeleted20]

Here's how

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/o_n_o/docs/AVIATION/4449.pdf

It's not the lack of charts that's the violation. It's the other violation caused by the lack of charts (which I think is what he was referring to)

Mark's statement is consistent with the guidance from Flight Standards and the Chief Counsel on the site linked at the top of this thread.

 

[EppyGA]

And when someone prangs it in the middle of your home airport's only runway while you're on downwind, and the field is closed for longer than you have fuel, how do you get somewhere else?

Hit the NRST button.

 

[poadeleted20]

Put it this way - if you land and hop out of your airplane and are greeted immediately by a FSDO guy wanting to do a ramp check, they will not (and should not) ask you for a current chart.

Actually, they are supposed to ask for just that, among other things. See item 11, below, from FAA Order 8900.1, Volume 6, Chapter 1, Section 4:

F. Inspect Aircraft. (Applies to all aircraft)
1) Determine that the proper airworthiness certificate is displayed at the cabin or cockpit entrance. Note that it is legible to passengers and/or crew.

2) Examine the registration certificate to ensure that it is issued for that specific aircraft. Determine that the N-number on the certificate matches the N-number on the aircraft. Check that the certificate is issued to the present owner of the aircraft.

3) Check the radio station license and note its expiration date. If it has expired, inform the operator of the pertinent FCC requirements.

4) Determine that there is a current, approved Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) on board the aircraft.

5) Determine if there is current weight and balance information in the aircraft by examining the AFM. Compare equipment listed on the weight and balance form to the actual equipment installed.

6) If applicable, check the MEL to determine that it has:

a) Been issued by N-number and serial number to the aircraft operator

b) A Letter of Authorization from a district office; check deferred items for placards and dates (Refer to Related Task #58, Approve a Minimum Equipment List.)

7) If a Letter of Deviation from part 125 has been issued, ensure that a true copy is in the aircraft.

8) If the aircraft is leased, determine that a copy of the lease agreement or contract is being carried in the aircraft. Note the expiration date on the lease and determine if the lease is still valid.

9) If applicable, determine that copies of the approved Category II or Category III authorization and manual are in the aircraft.

a) Review the Category II/III authorization and provisions.

b) Check that the aircraft make, model, and N-number is listed.

c) Consider any instrument, airport, or weather requirements listed there or in the manual.

10) If the aircraft operates under a letter of authorization for North Atlantic (NAT) Minimum Navigation Performance Specification (MNPS) airspace, determine if the letter is carried on board the aircraft.

11) Determine if pertinent and current aeronautical charts are available.

12) Ask the operator what type of instrument operations are conducted, for example: ILS, DME, RNAV. Determine if the required radio and navigational equipment is installed for the specific operations conducted.

 

[poadeleted20]

Hit the NRST button.

Yeah, and with his outdated database, he still lands talking on UNICOM at that airport where they put in the control tower last year.

 

[EppyGA]

Yeah, and with his outdated database, he still lands talking on UNICOM at that airport where they put in the control tower last year.

No doubt there are cheap pilots. To me keeping the database up to date is cheap insurance.

 

[poadeleted20]

No doubt there are cheap pilots. To me keeping the database up to date is cheap insurance.

I agree, but sectionals are still cheaper than GPS databases. And it's been at least seven years since anyone's landed at SBY with a pre-99 sectional talking on UNICOM or the old FSS AAS freq instead of Tower, but after two years of Tower ops over at ESN, they still get the occasional bozo on 122.95.

 

[dmccormack]

I agree, but sectionals are still cheaper than GPS databases. And it's been at least seven years since anyone's landed at SBY with a pre-99 sectional talking on UNICOM or the old FSS AAS freq instead of Tower, but after two years of Tower ops over at ESN, they still get the occasional bozo on 122.95.

Why not make everyone happy and give the new tower a freq of 122.950?

 

[elmetal]

Why not make everyone happy and give the new tower a freq of 122.950?

The thing I don't get is: if you haven't been to an airport in 2 years, shouldn't you kinda check it out before you just blastoff? I mean for all you know the airport is closed... the runway destroyed, who knows....

Maybe it's just me

 

[EppyGA]

The thing I don't get is: if you haven't been to an airport in 2 years, shouldn't you kinda check it out before you just blastoff? I mean for all you know the airport is closed... the runway destroyed, who knows....

Maybe it's just me

Wow, you know how much effort that takes!! You have to be able to look things up and all that. That takes time you know!!

 

[dmccormack]

Wow, you know how much effort that takes!! You have to be able to look things up and all that. That takes time you know!!

When do I have time to navigate all the way to AirNav and check on an airport when there's people that are WRONG on the Teal Board?!?!?!

 

[Jaybird180]

Question about data sources: Are the sources of data for this regulation required to be "approved" sources? If I familiarize myself using websites like Airnav, aopa, etc and/ or tools like Foreflight, is that enough to satisfy the regulation?

Why should I carry a paperweight when I can get the information that's RELEVANT to my planned route of flight? A diversion for emergency is UNPLANNED. If I don't have an AFD on board and do not notice the dark field in the blackness, is that careless? What am I misunderstanding here?

How likely is it that I have time to review an AFD and find a dark airfield in an actual emergency that wasn't pre-breifed?

Yes, I agree that I shouldn't be using 2 year old charts but ... [RANT OFF]

For the record, my charts are current.

 

[jesse]

Another time, I was accused of driving without license, insurance, and registration. That was a completely bogus charge and I suspect the cop just wanted a reason to go back to the station. Of course, this was dismissed without me even saying a word.

If I recall that was because you were driving without a license, insurance, or registration on hand. Therefore you can generally be charged with it in most states - and it'll generally be dropped later when you produce them.

 

[Ghery]

Although I am still just a student, I did go to the minor additional expense of using Sporty's subscription services so I would automatically get the latest local sectionals and A/FD. So far the updates have arrived in the mail on the dates the old ones expired - not bad service.

They've served me well for a number of years (10+).

I don't carry outdated charts in my flight bag. I may have some (stacks of them) at home, but the only ones in the plane are current. Cheap insurance.

 

[elmetal]

They've served me well for a number of years (10+).

I don't carry outdated charts in my flight bag. I may have some (stacks of them) at home, but the only ones in the plane are current. Cheap insurance.

amen to that.

I subscribe to the sectional, afd enroute and plates for my area and it's not 100 bucks a year. I personally think it's worth it

 

[dmccormack]

Question about data sources: Are the sources of data for this regulation required to be "approved" sources? If I familiarize myself using websites like Airnav, aopa, etc and/ or tools like Foreflight, is that enough to satisfy the regulation?

Why should I carry a paperweight when I can get the information that's RELEVANT to my planned route of flight? A diversion for emergency is UNPLANNED. If I don't have an AFD on board and do not notice the dark field in the blackness, is that careless? What am I misunderstanding here?

How likely is it that I have time to review an AFD and find a dark airfield in an actual emergency that wasn't pre-breifed?

Yes, I agree that I shouldn't be using 2 year old charts but ... [RANT OFF]

For the record, my charts are current.

Look -- you have to use some judgement.

For example -- I've flown over areas I didn't have published, current IAPs for.

So -- what if I have an emergency and have to do an approach into an airfield I don't have a chart for?

Simple -- tell ATC, they'll read you the plate.

Another example -- I diverted once to an airport while IFR. ATC asked me if I had the NOTAMS. I said No. She read me the approach NOTAM -- good thing, it added 400' to MDA.

 

[elmetal]

Simple -- tell ATC, they'll read you the plate.

First thing you want to do is keep your fate in your own hands.

Then once you fail you can ask ATC. There's not a chance in hell I'll go flying without whatever I need to go and ask ATC for it.

I plan first, they're just a backup.

to each his own though. in vfr conditions I'm with you though it mostly doesn't matter anyway. but if I'm in the soup I'm getting everything I need (although in your case it was a diversion and you obviously wouldn't have checked the notams on that as nobody else would've either)

 

[dmccormack]

First thing you want to do is keep your fate in your own hands.

Then once you fail you can ask ATC. There's not a chance in hell I'll go flying without whatever I need to go and ask ATC for it.

So for every flight you purchase all current TPPs?

 

[elmetal]

So for every flight you purchase all current TPPs?

I always keep current with my area and if I go out of my area I just get the tpps of my destination plus 3 nearby airports just in case. it's just a little ink and paper

aka: I don't buy TPPs for anything other than SE3. Outside of here it's all about downloading it


I subscribe at chartdude and it's 23 bucks a year. I can't complain

 

[steingar]

I'm pretty religious about charts, but not as much so about the facility directories. Pinch comes to shove, I'm not going to be thumbing my way through a thick book full of small print in an emergency. And I usually cross check destinations on the chart and GPS well before I get there. Sooner or later I'll get a pad with a subscription and forego all the processed trees.

 

[elmetal]

I'm pretty religious about charts, but not as much so about the facility directories. Pinch comes to shove, I'm not going to be thumbing my way through a thick book full of small print in an emergency. And I usually cross check destinations on the chart and GPS well before I get there. Sooner or later I'll get a pad with a subscription and forego all the processed trees.

I agree, the AFD is a little ridic

 

[poadeleted20]

Question about data sources: Are the sources of data for this regulation required to be "approved" sources? If I familiarize myself using websites like Airnav, aopa, etc and/ or tools like Foreflight, is that enough to satisfy the regulation?

The reg says "all available information," so if you don't check it all, you could be held accountable for what you missed. However, when it comes to preflight briefing materials such as weather and NOTAMs, or flight pubs such as aeronautical charts, the FAA has in case law made clear that certain sources are sufficient. For example, for weather and NOTAMs, if you get a "standard" briefing from FSS or a brieing from a "QICP" source such as DUAT, DUATS, FltPlan.com, and (for weather) ADDS, you have met the standard (just make sure you log in so you leave a trail to prove you checked). Likewise, if you have the "appropriate" pubs from an approved source (such as sectionals plus A/FD for VFR flight, or the Jeppesen Airway Manuals from Jepp for IFR) and they're current (beware of the chart updates in the NOTAM system for sectionals), you have met the standard.

Why should I carry a paperweight when I can get the information that's RELEVANT to my planned route of flight? A diversion for emergency is UNPLANNED. If I don't have an AFD on board and do not notice the dark field in the blackness, is that careless?

I believe the FAA would say it was. A diversion may be "unplanned," but it is not "unforeseeable," and 91.103 requires you to familiarize yourself with the "alternatives available if [for any reason, including an emergency] the planned flight cannot be completed." If you find yourself flying at night because your home field unexpectedly crumped as the sun went down, and you prang on an airport because you didn't have the right freq to turn on the runway lights because you deliberately chose not to carry current pubs, I do believe they would have your pilot certificate in their desk drawer for a while.

 

[dmccormack]

I always keep current with my area and if I go out of my area I just get the tpps of my destination plus 3 nearby airports just in case. it's just a little ink and paper

Then you do the same as I do and don't purchase a paper copy for every TPP you may fly over enroute.