Is it ever a good idea to sit on the runway after calling departure?

[Windrider]

Perhaps this should go in the instructor thread, but it isn't really an instruction question.

I am certed single engine land with IFR rating but am working on becoming current again after a long hiatus. It is possible I am misremembering something, laboring under inaccurate perceptions, etc. I am flying out of a goog-sized non-towered airport working with an instructor pilot who is very good in my opinion, but who has twice given me a somewhat lengthy explanation (eg 5 minutes or so) of what he wanted me to do/gone over the salient points of some upcoming maneuver after the departure radio call has been made and the plane has been taxied onto the runway and lined up ready to go. Let me be very clear. We are NOT behind a hold short line, we are on the runway in takeoff position just prior to advancing throttle to max and rolling and have already told any traffic we are taking the active runway and departing. Perhaps complicating the matter is the fact that the airport does receive some commerical use and does have some quick-moving flights arrive without radio contact or with very minimal radio contact. I have also witnessed a regular inbound commercial flight "chase" a Cessna 172 down the runway a couple of times as it landed close enough behind the smaller plane that the 172 pilot had to hold up the nose and pour on the gas to make and take a taxiway to get out of the way.

I am certain runway sitting never happened when I was initially taking instruction years back; I am quite sure that I was told then to essentially stay off the runway until ready to go and not to delay after informing unicom I was departing. I can definitely say that I never taxied out and sat on a runway for several minutes like this in any of my solo or passenger-carrying flights after passing that all-important first checkride.

The instructor pilot can be autocratic (like all instructors ), but I think now that it's happened twice I need at least to discuss with him the difficulties I have concentrating on whatever he is saying while giving myself a cricky neck looking around for inbound planes. It's a much better plan than waiting for a third time and either taxing off the runway or telling him to can it and taking off. I would appreciate posting on anything thought relevant to such a situation from other GA pilots.

 

[sba55]

I have also witnessed a regular inbound commercial flight "chase" a Cessna 172 down the runway a couple of times as it landed close enough behind the smaller plane that the 172 pilot had to hold up the nose and pour on the gas to make and take a taxiway to get out of the way.

Uh oh. In that case, there appear to be some VERY bad habits in play at this airport. If this ever happens to you, report it to the FSDO. Behavior like that is not only unsafe, it's a danger to the passengers on the commercial flight, almost certainly a violation of 91.13, as well as a danger to you. Completely unacceptable.

I would appreciate posting on anything thought relevant to such a situation from other GA pilots.

I can't think of a case when sitting on the runway would be a good idea. Besides being very inconsiderate to other planes, it's unsafe for the reasons you mentioned. Why wouldn't you just stop short of the hold short line? I can't see any downside to this.

-Felix

 

[PilotAlan]

At an uncontrolled airport, the only thing that should be happening after entering the runway is immediate departure.

You already know why. You already know it's a bad idea You can't see behind you, you're set up for a collision. Discussions need to happen off the runway or outside the pattern. Let me tell you how angry I would be if I was coming in for landing and had to go around because a plane was just sitting on the runway with the instructor blathering on.

Let me also say, you say this is a good CFI, but if he's doing something like this that he should know better, how good is he really?

 

[Ghery]

You land behind me while I'm still on the runway and we're going to have a conversation at the FSDO office. That runway is MINE until I exit and clear the hold short line. Airliners have no special place at an uncontrolled field. That said, I have been known to let an airliner take the runway for takeoff even though I had to leave the pattern and do a 360. He had a schedule, I didn't. But that was voluntary on my part. He wasn't chasing me down the runway.

But, sit on the runway after calling that I was departing? No way. I'm spending as little time as possible with my back to incoming traffic. I haven't had a rear view mirror in a plane since the last time I flew a C-150, and that was over 9 years ago.

 

[roncachamp]

You land behind me while I'm still on the runway and we're going to have a conversation at the FSDO office. That runway is MINE until I exit and clear the hold short line.

Yours without regard to the distance between you and the landing traffic? Nonsense. "Chasing" a Cessna 172 down the runway is wrong, but if you're half a mile or more from the threshold when I cross it you'll be making a fool of yourself at the FSDO office without me.

 

[Ted]

It seems to me like your instructor is getting into his explanations that belong at the hold short line or, better still, prior to starting the engine. This is especially true in the summer when it's really hot in the cabin.

Seriously, that's a safety of flight issue. I'd talk to him about it. I'll not bother getting into the other things you mentioned, which are safety of flight issues.

 

[nyoung]

This is horrible. Please don't do it.

IMHO, there is absolutely zero reason to ever use position and hold at a non-towered airport.

With the exception of a few seconds to spool up the engines on a twin, or verify that a localizer needle is working correctly... Position and hold achieves nothing that could not be done behind the hold short line.

<snip> I am flying out of a goog-sized non-towered airport working with an instructor pilot who is very good in my opinion, but who has twice given me a somewhat lengthy explanation (eg 5 minutes or so) of what he wanted me to do/gone over the salient points of some upcoming maneuver after the departure radio call has been made and the plane has been taxied onto the runway and lined up ready to go. Let me be very clear. We are NOT behind a hold short line, we are on the runway in takeoff position just prior to advancing throttle <snip>

 

[Dr. O]

You are not a starry eyed newcomer, you are an experienced PIC... Express your concerns to him about inappropriately blocking the active runway... If he cops an attitude it is time for a new 'instructor'... More likely he was just letting his enthusiasm for teaching a maneuver run away with him and wasn't thinking ahead...



denny-o

 

[Sticky1]

Yours without regard to the distance between you and the landing traffic? Nonsense. "Chasing" a Cessna 172 down the runway is wrong, but if you're half a mile or more from the threshold when I cross it you'll be making a fool of yourself at the FSDO office without me.

What a bunch of crap..!!!! YOU scare me, do you have a license..? I mean a pilots license...

 

[rottydaddy]

I guess I was lucky that my insructors were all sticklers for not doing this... sometimes I still hear "go, go, go, don't sit here!" in the back of my mind as I take the active. If they had some point to make about lining up, or an additional instruction regarding the takeoff, it was made while we were moving.

There's nothing you can do sitting on the runway that you can't do behind the hold line, so when I see a departing flight just sitting there, I always assume they forgot something.
Not that that is any excuse...and it really doesn't make sense to rush through runup, etc. in a mad dash to get onto the active runway, only to then sit on said runway and fiddle with radios, review departure procedures, or whatever it is these dumbasses are doing when they should be rolling. I just don't get that, aside from the obvious safety factors.

If you are still doing pre-takeoff chores on the runway, you are not magically going to get those chores done more quickly, and if your concern is to depart before other traffic heading for the active, well, all you have to do is get to the hold line before they do. I wouldn't recommend doing the runup at the hold line (unless you are absolutely certain there is nobody behind you), but everything else can be done right there... although it's more courteous to do everything somewhere outside the flow of taxiing traffic, or on the roll if you can do so safely.

The only task I can accept while on the runway prior to departure (one that can sometimes actually enhance safety) is to verify runway heading against the wet compass. But that can be done very quickly, even as the roll begins. And I don't mean take that moment to set the DG... that should be done before crossing the line.


As for landing while another airplane is on the runway: barring emergency, I just don't see a need for it, other than to satisfy one's impatience, or maybe to show off.
It's not a good idea- that plane rolling ahead of you may stop at any moment without warning. Obviously, given enough runway, it can be done safely- we all know how they do it at Airventure... but of course, that is a tower-controlled situation, and it only works if the pilots hit their assigned spots. And even then it is far riskier than only landing one plane at a time on a given runway.

 

[roncachamp]

What a bunch of crap..!!!! YOU scare me, do you have a license..? I mean a pilots license...

Yes, I have a pilots license. How did I scare you?

 

[roncachamp]

As for landing while another airplane is on the runway: barring emergency, I just don't see a need for it, other than to satisfy one's impatience, or maybe to show off.
It's not a good idea- that plane rolling ahead of you may stop at any moment without warning. Obviously, given enough runway, it can be done safely- we all know how they do it at Airventure... but of course, that is a tower-controlled situation, and it only works if the pilots hit their assigned spots. And even then it is far riskier than only landing one plane at a time on a given runway.

Not a problem, I can land quite safely behind him.

 

[rottydaddy]

Not a problem, I can land quite safely behind him.

I'm sure you can- so could I. That's no great feat, in most cases.

But it's not my first choice, and I can't see any good reason, other than maybe being on fire, why I'd increase the risk by touching down when someone's rolling out or taxiing on the runway. I have no problem extending my downwind or even going around... if the aircraft ahead of me does do something unexpected (like stop to turn around to back-taxi, or suffer a gear collapse) I'm going to have to go around anyway... if it's even possible to do so at that point.
I avoid it even when there's an aircraft departing... sure, if they abort before or even after lifting off, I could probably squeeze in there. But I feel no pressing need- ever- to do that; nothing that would justify the risk.
Again, though, if the alternative is to expose myself to even greater risk, I'd do it.

I'm curious: what would your reason be (other than "I can do that") for choosing to land on a runway occupied by another aircraft?

 

[roncachamp]

But it's not my first choice, and I can't see any good reason, other than maybe being on fire, why I'd increase the risk by touching down when someone's rolling out or taxiing on the runway.

I don't see any increased risk. There's 3000 feet or more of unoccupied runway available, home base is 2000' and I don't use even half of that.

I have no problem extending my downwind or even going around... if the aircraft ahead of me does do something unexpected (like stop to turn around to back-taxi, or suffer a gear collapse) I'm going to have to go around anyway... if it's even possible to do so at that point.

If the guy ahead suffered a gear collapse I'd land and render any needed aid. If he turned around and started to back-taxi instead of using the exit ahead of him I'd go around.

I'm curious: what would your reason be (other than "I can do that") for choosing to land on a runway occupied by another aircraft?

Because I'm at my destination and I can land safely.

 

[tonycondon]

i tend to treat runways similar to railroad tracks. i dont like spending any more time on them than necessary.

 

[Ted]

I'm curious: what would your reason be (other than "I can do that") for choosing to land on a runway occupied by another aircraft?

This was done thousands of times last week at a certain airport in Wisconsin. I've even landed with another plane not more than a few feet from my wingtip. He was that way from takeoff through landing.

However, that was planned ahead. I view that as significantly different from an airliner tailgating a 172 that then has to pour on the gas to keep from getting run over.

 

[nddons]

Obviously, Windrider, you know the answers to your own questions. You are still PIC in all respects, even with an instructor on board. Exercise your PIC duties as you see fit, particularly with respect to safety of flight. If the instructor doesn't like it, taxi back, drop him off, and find another instructor.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

That runway is MINE until I exit and clear the hold short line.

That isn't entirely true. I cannot quote chapter and verse, but I have seen it in print that if there is 3000 feet between the aircraft then landing while the preceding arrival is still on the runway is a legal maneuver as long as they are in the same weight category, or some such.

 

[roncachamp]

That isn't entirely true. I cannot quote chapter and verse, but I have seen it in print that if there is 3000 feet between the aircraft then landing while the preceding arrival is still on the runway is a legal maneuver as long as they are in the same weight category, or some such.

JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control

See paras 3-9-6 and 3-10-3.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Thank you.

 

[bobmrg]

What a bunch of crap..!!!! YOU scare me, do you have a license..? I mean a pilots license...

Although Steve didn't cite it, the ATCH allows for a distance of 3000 feet between an airplane on the runway rolling toward an exit and an airplane landing on the same runway. Basically, that's what he said. The plane on the runway does not "own" it.

Bob Gardner

 

[poadeleted20]

Yours without regard to the distance between you and the landing traffic? Nonsense. "Chasing" a Cessna 172 down the runway is wrong, but if you're half a mile or more from the threshold when I cross it you'll be making a fool of yourself at the FSDO office without me.

I'll agree with that. The question they'll ask is whether safety is compromised. If you can roll at your own speed to the end of the runway without the other plane coming close to you, then it's unlikely the FSDO would take action. However, the action described by the OP ("a regular inbound commercial flight 'chase' a Cessna 172 down the runway a couple of times as it landed close enough behind the smaller plane that the 172 pilot had to hold up the nose and pour on the gas to make and take a taxiway to get out of the way") would not be acceptable. 91.113(g) applies: "Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface..."

 

[poadeleted20]

That isn't entirely true. I cannot quote chapter and verse, but I have seen it in print that if there is 3000 feet between the aircraft then landing while the preceding arrival is still on the runway is a legal maneuver as long as they are in the same weight category, or some such.

That's true for towered airports in that the controller must ensure that much separation is maintained. However, there is no specific standard for nontowered airports, only the nonquantitative rules 91.111(a) about not creating a collision hazard and 91.113(g) about not forcing the plane ahead off the runway.

 

[Ghery]

I'll agree with that. The question they'll ask is whether safety is compromised. If you can roll at your own speed to the end of the runway without the other plane coming close to you, then it's unlikely the FSDO would take action. However, the action described by the OP ("a regular inbound commercial flight 'chase' a Cessna 172 down the runway a couple of times as it landed close enough behind the smaller plane that the 172 pilot had to hold up the nose and pour on the gas to make and take a taxiway to get out of the way") would not be acceptable. 91.113(g) applies: "Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface..."

My point, exactly. Besides, lacking a rear view mirror, how am I to know that an airliner is breathing down my neck?

Other than a special case like OSH, if there is another plane still on the runway, I go around. I don't care how far down he is, I go around. And I have more than once in the past month. I don't know what he is going to do, so I avoid the problem. And I would expect others to do the same.

How do you judge 3000 feet from the air? Easy if the runway is 3000 feet or less in length. Or if you have all the details in the layout memorized. I prefer to keep things simple. Plane on runway, go around.

 

[roncachamp]

Other than a special case like OSH, if there is another plane still on the runway, I go around. I don't care how far down he is, I go around. And I have more than once in the past month. I don't know what he is going to do, so I avoid the problem. And I would expect others to do the same.

That's your choice, but you've got nothing to complain about if an airplane lands a safe distance behind you. That runway is not yours until you exit and clear the hold short line.

 

[gprellwitz]

Although Steve didn't cite it, the ATCH allows for a distance of 3000 feet between an airplane on the runway rolling toward an exit and an airplane landing on the same runway. Basically, that's what he said. The plane on the runway does not "own" it.

Bob Gardner

Actually, the distance varies from 3,000' to 6,000' depending on the weights of the aircraft involved. If either of the airplanes is a category III aircraft, it is 6,000'. Presuming that a "commercial" plane is at least a category II (> 12,500 pounds), the required distance would be at least 4,500', if not 6,000'. That's not consistent with the described "close enough behind the smaller plane that the 172 pilot had to hold up the nose and pour on the gas to make and take a taxiway to get out of the way."

Also, as has been noted, that applies only to the controllers instructions at a towered airport. The description of the operations given leads me to believe that the OP's airport is pilot-controlled.

Category definitions for this purpose:
CATEGORY I- small aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, with a single propeller driven engine, and all helicopters.
CATEGORY II- small aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, with propeller driven twin-engines.
CATEGORY III- all other aircraft.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Although Steve didn't cite it, the ATCH allows for a distance of 3000 feet between an airplane on the runway rolling toward an exit and an airplane landing on the same runway. Basically, that's what he said. The plane on the runway does not "own" it.

Can't remember the last time I was on a runway with 3000 feet behind me.

 

[Windrider]

Well, I feel suitably admonished y'all, quite correct that although out of currency I do know the answer (or at the least, thought I did). I believe I needed someone to remind me to focus on that rather than on how much I've lost during the nonflight years.

So thank you for the discussion, it's helpful for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which being that strong tendency to remember something pertinent to the aviation or safety aspects of flight without yet also remembering what's behind it; not being able to point at specific underlying reasons or specific rules makes it easier to question whether it's a good idea to contradict an instructor pilot.

While actively flying I was both a more cautious pilot than average and a more precise flyer than was common in low-time GA aviation. The first was partly my own preference, the latter a result of being taught by a former bomber commander pilot who believed every pilot should strive for perfection every flight. I've had a few momentarily confusing conversations with the previous instructor pilot regarding such things as my attempts to fly within narrower limits than are apparently expected. It was just possible I was erring on the side of "too much for GA" or "too much for a baby airport" etc here again. Not that that would have stopped me from doing things my way when flying alone...


Just a couple comments on the posts:

Nostalgia strikes! My instructor did the same thing way back then..."Go, go, go...!" Was he the same guy? LOL!

Nice to see debate back and forth on the finer points of runway "ownership". BTW the "chase" problem is already known at the airport, FBO employees/management knew exactly who I meant when I brought it up. I am not quite clear on why, but it was explained that they need someone who "counts" (my paraphrase) to witness an incident in order to get it stopped. One additional fact: the airplane is a commercial freight hauler, not a passenger carrying airliner flight.

I'd say this instructor is a good one from the quality of his descriptions, the proportionate blend of holding backtaking over as necessary and his ability to work successfully with a variety of students in a variety of craft --including the nonstudent pilot like myself. My former instructor had difficulty in the flexibility required with noncurrent pilots versus student pilots. But anyone can develop unfortunate habits or even complacencies with too much familiarity. I well remember scaring the living daylights out of control personnel at a towered airport years ago when they asked the student pilot to expedite and shortly found themselves watching what they thought was a crash-in-progress. (It didn't occur to me to tell them I had been soaring for three years and was quite capable of slipping an aircraft relatively severely to lose altitude fast.) The instructor may have simply been unconcerned because its not common for there to be much traffic here at the times we tend to fly. However, it only takes one other 'plane, and yes, we all need to speak up when a fellow pilot may have gotten into that bad habit mindset.

 

[Everskyward]

Can't remember the last time I was on a runway with 3000 feet behind me.

Here I was thinking that happens every time I land.

Of course out here there are plenty of uncontrolled airports which are longer than, say, 6,000 feet. The one I landed at the morning is 8,900 feet.

Nostalgia strikes! My instructor did the same thing way back then..."Go, go, go...!" Was he the same guy? LOL!

While I don't think loitering on the runway is a good idea I'm also not too fond of the idea of CFIs rushing their students like this. This is a personal observation of myself and other pilots but I think more mistakes are caused by rushing than almost anything else. It can happen even with no external pressure. I've found that many pilots tend to be "go, go, go" type individuals.

Nice to see debate back and forth on the finer points of runway "ownership". BTW the "chase" problem is already known at the airport, FBO employees/management knew exactly who I meant when I brought it up. I am not quite clear on why, but it was explained that they need someone who "counts" (my paraphrase) to witness an incident in order to get it stopped. One additional fact: the airplane is a commercial freight hauler, not a passenger carrying airliner flight.

I'm trying to picture how one airplane can chase another one down the runway. The pilot in the leading airplane can't see the following airplane so how does that work? Does the pilot of the chasing airplane say, "Get your butt off the runway, I'm touching down now!"?

 

[gkainz]

Can't remember the last time I was on a runway with 3000 feet behind me.

I can ... RWY 31L here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NFL_-_FAA_airport_diagram.gif

 

[poadeleted20]

Oh, and as for the original question, my answer is a resounding "NO!"

 

[poadeleted20]

Can't remember the last time I was on a runway with 3000 feet behind me.

I can. The runway was 8000 feet long, and the FBO was about halfway down on the right. Touched down about 3000 feet down the runway, turned off in front of the FBO. Made everyone happy, especially since tower had someone waiting to go and someone else taxiing up the parallel twy for takeoff.

 

[Windrider]

I'm trying to picture how one airplane can chase another one down the runway. The pilot in the leading airplane can't see the following airplane so how does that work? Does the pilot of the chasing airplane say, "Get your butt off the runway, I'm touching down now!"?

First time I saw it I was the 172 passenger, coming back from a local flight with another GA (noninstructor) pilot and missed what was happening myself until I asked why exactly we suddenly went to yoke far back/throttle advanced/rolling fast but not fast enough for a takeoff after intially slowing as usual after the gear touched down. The pilot told me he was getting out of the way. We started the turn to take a taxiway a few seconds later and I got a good view of how close the commercial plane had just landed behind us. Even at high traffic airports years back I'd never seen anyone land that close behind. Can't answer for the time I saw it from the ground, but I suspect it was the same thing --a pilot familiar with the airport hearing the specific voice calling straight in final and knowing from experience he had best clear the runway asap.

 

[Everskyward]

I suspect it was the same thing --a pilot familiar with the airport hearing the specific voice calling straight in final and knowing from experience he had best clear the runway asap.

Or what?

 

[Jetman150]

BEFORE Take off is your best time to plan the flight.. you have all the time in the world, and you can make a lot of decisions about the flight before you even start the engine.
I think that once you have your aircraft over the hold short line, you either crap or get off the crapper. Why? Because its already gametime. and your going to get run over, or be the cause of an accident.

As far as two airplanes on the same runway, maybe at a controlled airport, however, if im on final and another airplane is still on the runway, its time for a go around, no matter what. period. you dont know thier situation, and they may be having problems, being slow or whatever, but give them due courtesy, and dont magnify a bad situation. Of Course, if you turn base after the other aircraft on final has passed you, depending on the planes, speed,s winds, etc, there might be some spacing issues.. Whats wrong with a go around? its still part of the traffic pattern..

My instructors said "go,go" because we already talked about the flight, and that was my opportunity to express any type of "hold up". What do I do if im flying out of class "c/d/b" and I get cleared to takeoff, but the controller says there is aircraft on final? multiple aircraft? do I create a bad stressful situation because I want set the tempo for the pattern? NO!! The whole purpose of a pattern and entry into it, is to get your altitude, tempo, and spacing correct, before landing.

 

[Everskyward]

I think there is a difference between doing things in a timely manner and trying to do things faster than your capabilities allow. This would apply to both getting on the runway and getting off of it.

 

[PittsDriver]

Instead of initially getting all up in your instructors stuff, I would just politely ask what we're going out here on the runway discussing something that could have been done on the other side of the hold short line. And more importantly, is this kind of thing that is being modeled by him something he'd like to see his students doing? If he doesn't see anything wrong with this, I'd politely disagree with him and suggest that you'd like to do it differently and he should be OK with that. If he get's all funky because his "authority to be right all the time" is being challenged, just find another instructor because what's next with this guy?

 

[John Baker]

I'm new to this, but my feeling is, if you are in the left seat, your driving the airplane. Unless you have traded off with your instructor, your the pilot, you make the decisions.

I've never experienced that situation, but I have told instructors to hold down the chatter when I'm in the airport environment. Leaving or approaching, the chatter should be at a bare minimum.

Whoever is flying the airplane is the one who makes the calls. Ignore your instructor and continue your take off roll. If he says he has the airplane, repeat that back to him, hold both hands up, and let him do whatever he wants.

John

 

[rottydaddy]

While I don't think loitering on the runway is a good idea I'm also not too fond of the idea of CFIs rushing their students like this. This is a personal observation of myself and other pilots but I think more mistakes are caused by rushing than almost anything else. It can happen even with no external pressure. I've found that many pilots tend to be "go, go, go" type individuals.

Don't get me wrong- I'm not talking about rushing things; I'm referring to those times I hesitated. Like most newbies, I would often get into position and stop... no need for it, really.
I was trained to prepare in an orderly and timely manner, and not take the active until I was ready to take off.
Granted, a few seconds or so is no big deal, but every pre-takeoff task should be completed by that point, so there's no useful purpose for pausing.
There have been many times I probably could have sat at the threshold for hours without being in anybody's way, but loitering there is just a bad habit, just like the other extreme: taking the active without doing some sort of checklist, or actually looking for traffic on final before crossing the line.

 

[silver-eagle]

Check the runway, check final, announce, and GO! Sitting on the runway exposes you to arriving traffic and if you're facing the departure end, HOW WILL YOU KNOW?
You can't depend on a radio call (NORDO).
If Joe CFI wants to have a conversation about what your lesson will be, either preflight the mission inside or before you start the engine. You're paying for his time and experience but chatting about what you're going to do is best done inside.
Maybe he gets paid by tach time. This gives him a chance to pad it. Don't do it where it puts you and everyone else in jeopardy.