Is it difficult to get furloughed from a government job in aviation during an economic downturn?

N918KT

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Just curious, but is it possible or is it difficult to get furloughed or laid off from a government job in aviation when there is a economic depression or recession? Jobs like airport management, ATC, FAA, TSA, aviation jobs with the city, county, state, or federal government, etc?

Unlike jobs with the airlines, GA, and other non-government aviation jobs, can aviation jobs in government withstand economic troubles?
 
Just curious, but is it possible or is it difficult to get furloughed or laid off from a government job in aviation when there is a economic depression or recession? Jobs like airport management, ATC, FAA, TSA, aviation jobs with the city, county, state, or federal government, etc?

Unlike jobs with the airlines, GA, and other non-government aviation jobs, can aviation jobs in government withstand economic troubles?
In general any government job is more secure. After all you are no longer employed in a for profit enterprise. All of the money to run the operation is taken from other people that earn it elsewhere.
 
Just curious, but is it possible or is it difficult to get furloughed or laid off from a government job in aviation when there is a economic depression or recession?

It can be. I tried once and they said no, get back to work.
 
In general any government job is more secure. After all you are no longer employed in a for profit enterprise. All of the money to run the operation is taken from other people that earn it elsewhere.
It's really obvious when someone who has never worked in the public sector says how it "works."

The real answer is that you can get furloughed quite easily if some congress critter (or state/local legislator if that's who you work for) gets a bug up his butt. It isn't likely to be a surprise. You MAY be exempt if your job is safety critical, but those are few. More likely, you'll be locked offsite and prohibited from entering. You may or may not get your vacation raided to cover it.

Most furloughs last until some ***hole backs down, but there are occasionally much longer ones. Those aren't usually called furloughs, but rather "reductions in force" or project cancellations.
 
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In general any government job is more secure. After all you are no longer employed in a for profit enterprise. All of the money to run the operation is taken from other people that earn it elsewhere.

I'm pretty sure most of it isn't even earned these days. Deficit spending, and all. Magic money.
 
Just curious, but is it possible or is it difficult to get furloughed or laid off from a government job in aviation when there is a economic depression or recession? Jobs like airport management, ATC, FAA, TSA, aviation jobs with the city, county, state, or federal government, etc?

Unlike jobs with the airlines, GA, and other non-government aviation jobs, can aviation jobs in government withstand economic troubles?

Government employees only get furloughed when the turnips run out of blood.
 
All of the money to run the operation is taken from other people that earn it elsewhere.
earned elsewhere? I could've sworn I paid taxes when I worked for the federal government. I also saw several reductions in force, BRAC, and two furloughs; but why let facts get in the way of an anti-government hijack?

Nauga,
deemed essential
 
During the financial crisis circa 2008-9, a lot of federal agencies had budget cuts, and were told to decide whether to furlough or save some other way. Some agencies did furlough, for example on Fridays, until the crisis eased.

On the whole, govt employees were much more secure than employees of private firms in the more cyclical sectors.
 
earned elsewhere? I could've sworn I paid taxes when I worked for the federal government. I also saw several reductions in force, BRAC, and two furloughs; but why let facts get in the way of an anti-government hijack?

Nauga,
deemed essential


I didn't say government employees were never layed off. Just generally more stable and insulated from the economy. Paying taxes on money that came entirely from someone else's money being taxed is not the same. Sorry to pop your bubble. Government spending does not help the economy. It takes away from the economy all government is a cost or expense. Not a profit or positive contribution
 
20 yr. DOD. During your first year you can be terminated without cause. After your third year you matriculate from career conditional to career. Then, I can only lose my job without cause (rif) through congressional action. I can be immediatly removed for cause but it is a short list. Fighting, sleeping, undisclosed drug use, drug sale, surfing porn on government computer. I am sure that I missed a few, but you get the idea. Some things, like theft, sick leave abuse, sexual harrassment, not playing well with others will get you a letter in your file. Enough and they can work to have you removed but for most managers it is too much work. If I am deemed incapable of doing my job, e.g. I become disabled, another position will be found or created. Once, During the sequester, I did have to take a 2 week furlough. Notice incompotence and laziness are not included in this list, which personally is a darn good thing.
 
It's really obvious when someone who has never worked in the public sector says how it "works."

The real answer is that you can get furloughed quite easily if some congress critter (or state/local legislator if that's who you work for) gets a bug up his butt. It isn't likely to be a surprise. You MAY be exempt if your job is safety critical, but those are few. More likely, you'll be locked offsite and prohibited from entering. You may or may not get your vacation raided to cover it.

Most furloughs last until some ***hole backs down, but there are occasionally much longer ones. Those aren't usually called furloughs, but rather "reductions in force" or project cancellations.


It's funny when someone assumes that since my opinion is different than theirs I obviously have never worked in the public sector. I have in fact worked for the government. My wife has worked for the government for 17 years. I am familiar with public sector jobs and how budgets get dicked with by politicians fighting over how to spend money. Blahblah blah.

Once again I didn't say government employees never lost their jobs. Never got furloughed never got fired didn't have to actually perform to keep a job and were ticks on my favorite dogs ass. Wtf


What I said was......

Government jobs are generally more secure because the government does not have to make a profit. All of their money comes from other people who have to worry about earning the money.


That's all I said. And it's the truth. I know. I have been there, done that, and have the t-shirt
 
I didn't say government employees were never layed off. Just generally more stable and insulated from the economy. Paying taxes on money that came entirely from someone else's money being taxed is not the same. Sorry to pop your bubble. Government spending does not help the economy. It takes away from the economy all government is a cost or expense. Not a profit or positive contribution

'Not a positive contribution'...... I would consider providing for a common defense a 'positive contribution'
 
What common defense would that be??
 
I've always been fascinated at the level of schadenfreude within the American labor force. You don't have to search very long on here to realize we straight up hate each other's manner of making a living. My entitlement is your welfare, my positive contribution is your waste production etc etc.

Meanwhile a dozen Richards with shell companies in Panama are pulling strings globally (not just Wall St) playing monopoly with humanity's labor value in order to project the security of their plutonomy, and nobody bats an eye because it's insidious and hard to describe with basic colors and a 30 second youtube video. They pin proles against one another with economic globalization hunger games, hoard the labor revenue. Buy up all the primo real estate in the modern Romes of the world, leave them sitting vacant (investment they call it). Starve a quarter of the world's population, poisons another quarter...

...But a W-2 worker in America aspires to earn a paycheck that barely affords him the ability to save for retirement AND raise a family to a first world standard of living and that's all of sudden blasphemy? GMAFB.

Like denverpilot said, we all have blood in our hands, it's not just govt. When you're in a subsidized industry to any degree, you're just as much a leech as the "urban" TSA GS-7. This is Shawshank, we're all "innocent" here buddy. Food and hospitality business owners calling their govt worker and oil rig job clients "leeches", that's how g-d cognitive dissonant this place is sometimes.
 
What the crap. I am not bashing civil government employees. Nor their contribution to SOCIETY. I was one for a while. I felt I was very much contributing to my community.

ECONOMICALLY government jobs are not contributory. I cost the tax payers money. I did not contribute to the economy. I was providing a service to the community that was 100% a cost to the community. Yes I payed taxes but it was not productive to the economy because I was spending your money and paying taxes on your money.

Why are meanings being read into my posts that are not there?????
 
I've always been fascinated at the level of schadenfreude within the American labor force. You don't have to search very long on here to realize we straight up hate each other's manner of making a living. My entitlement is your welfare, my positive contribution is your waste production etc etc.

Meanwhile a dozen Richards with shell companies in Panama are pulling strings globally (not just Wall St) playing monopoly with humanity's labor value in order to project the security of their plutonomy, and nobody bats an eye because it's insidious and hard to describe with basic colors and a 30 second youtube video. They pin proles against one another with economic globalization hunger games, hoard the labor revenue. Buy up all the primo real estate in the modern Romes of the world, leave them sitting vacant (investment they call it). Starve a quarter of the world's population, poisons another quarter...

...But a W-2 worker in America aspires to earn a paycheck that barely affords him the ability to save for retirement AND raise a family to a first world standard of living and that's all of sudden blasphemy? GMAFB.

Like denverpilot said, we all have blood in our hands, it's not just govt. When you're in a subsidized industry to any degree, you're just as much a leech as the "urban" TSA GS-7. This is Shawshank, we're all "innocent" here buddy. Food and hospitality business owners calling their govt worker and oil rig job clients "leeches", that's how g-d cognitive dissonant this place is sometimes.

Subsidized industry's are part of the big government problem. It's not the governments job to dick around in the market. entitlement programs normally have the opposite effect from their intended purpose. No matter which one you want to talk about ..... Welfare, farm subsidies Etc it's the same. Good intentions but negative overal impact.
 
Like denverpilot said, we all have blood in our hands, it's not just govt. When you're in a subsidized industry to any degree, you're just as much a leech as the "urban" TSA GS-7. This is Shawshank, we're all "innocent" here buddy. Food and hospitality business owners calling their govt worker and oil rig job clients "leeches", that's how g-d cognitive dissonant this place is sometimes.

I don't know I'd say that was the intent of my post, but I guess it works. My point was not that "good gub'mint jobs" are bad or unneeded necessarily (some aren't), but that we've totally lost control of spending on them, meaning by default we aren't making any real priority decisions on which ones to keep and which ones to toss.

We're all, every Citizen, roughly $45,000 in the hole and that number is growing very rapidly. I know personally that a concentrated effort to pay off over $30,000 in consumer debt took me roughly ten years making a GOOD salary but having "over-bought" in housing and other big ticket items that we weren't willing to part with.

It's really hard to find individuals that haven't benefitted in some way from government spending, is always the argument -- which is completely true, of course. That's the whole point of it, when done right. Maximum good for maximum Citizens.

The problem I have is that the spending is at this point, quite literally, out of control. There's politicians who wrangle over where to spend, but virtually none who don't spend like drunken sailors on shore leave, when the actual votes are cast.

And with an essentially two Party system of two Parties that only spend, not cut (going back and forth cutting the other Party's "favorite stuff" in alternating fashion, is not cuts, it's just a pendulum swinging back and forth), I see no end to adding to the annual deficit, nor reducing the debt load.

Obviously some deficit spending and some level of debt is reasonable, but it's pretty obvious that there's plenty of unreasonable results and outcomes from it all. All do-able because the money flows too freely.

The proof, as one person has pointed out, is in the pudding of just how much is taken from someone with an average salary or business. It's hitting levels where with salary stagnation for most people, that taxes are eating into the ability to have reasonable discretionary income for low salaries, and really good discretionary income levels for those who bust their butts.

In the end, we don't have control over our shared priorities or a sense of what government should do and what it shouldn't. Everything is ripe for government intervention and subsidies for stuff of questionable real and sometimes moral value.

That $45,000 doesn't include the likely bailouts for stuff like underwater pension funds and the trillion or so dollars that will likely be defaulted upon by college graduates of dubious degree programs who'll be unable to make a salary capable of paying back the cost of their education.

I don't even have a problem with the kids who want Grandpa Bernie to give it to them for free, or any of the other social mandates -- I just want to see a real plan on how they're going to be funded and sustained. In other words, "What are you willing to give up to have that?" Just like real world household budgets.

Anyone who's lived through digging out of massive personal debt and didn't take the easy way out with a bankruptcy car wash (which granted, are easier and more effective for a business than an individual), just isn't ever going to be a super-fan of the poor budgetary discipline of bureaucracies. We could chop the Federal budget by about half and everyone would still be living the life of a Prince or Princess compared with developing nations -- but we're all pretty much spoiled brats at this point, "needing" way more things than we should.

I know plenty of private sector folks who'd nearly kill for the terms of employment many have in some of the government's largest bureaucracies. I would normally say me included, but after long thought on it over the years, I wouldn't trade my knowledge and experience of what destroys a company and leads to 400 of 500 laid off without warning. Nor the ability to see and recognize fiscal risk in the private sector that it gave me.

That same sense of risk also makes it really hard to ignore the Master Caution light and alarm going off regularly about these over-funded government things that don't return or add as much value as they cost. Too much waste and not enough "we can't afford that, here's what's more important to everyone" overall.

It'd be fascinating to see how fast we'd get control of the spending if the IRS couldn't collect automatically from payroll deduction but instead had to get a check from everyone monthly that they had to write.

But obviously I'm not holding my breath on that brilliant piece of social engineering going away. There are still people who think they're getting a great deal when they get their "tax refund" every year. They often have no idea what they actually paid for their own government services and wouldn't ever think of bottom line calculations and/or just reading their pay stubs or the real number on their 1040 every year. It's a LOT of money.

Most folks with a bill that high personally, look for less expensive and more efficient use of money. And they cut non-essential things out of their budget.
 
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earned elsewhere? I could've sworn I paid taxes when I worked for the federal government. I also saw several reductions in force, BRAC, and two furloughs; but why let facts get in the way of an anti-government hijack?

Well, technically, you gave back a portion of Other People's Money that they had originally given to you. There was no new revenue from you to cover the cost of govt. It all originally came from the private sector.
 
Wow Nate, that is a really well balanced take on things.

I am all for a balanced budget amendment. Congress (& Executive) need to be sequestered without pay during each year during budget season each year until they come up with a balanced budget, and at this point the budget needs to include paying down the debt within 30 years.

It needs to be made consequential in the short term who it is you vote for. A balanced budget is a good first step to that.
 
Wow Nate, that is a really well balanced take on things.

I am all for a balanced budget amendment. Congress (& Executive) need to be sequestered without pay during each year during budget season each year until they come up with a balanced budget, and at this point the budget needs to include paying down the debt within 30 years.

It needs to be made consequential in the short term who it is you vote for. A balanced budget is a good first step to that.

I like Warren Buffet's plan: any year with a budget deficit makes all congressmen ineligible for re-election.
 
I like Warren Buffet's plan: any year with a budget deficit makes all congressmen ineligible for re-election.

I call BS on that.

That does not sound like something Warren Buffett would say. His Vice Chair Charlie Munger, maybe -- Charlie is outspoken. But Warren is very polite.

Anyway, you don't even know his name. It is spelled with a double t."
 
Just curious, but is it possible or is it difficult to get furloughed or laid off from a government job in aviation when there is a economic depression or recession? Jobs like airport management, ATC, FAA, TSA, aviation jobs with the city, county, state, or federal government, etc?

Unlike jobs with the airlines, GA, and other non-government aviation jobs, can aviation jobs in government withstand economic troubles?

I'll try to answer your question:

Not all government jobs are the same. Federal jobs tend to be pretty stable, with occasional politically motivated temporary furloughs. As a Fed you should anticipate the possibility of such an even and plan your savings strategy accordingly. Every furlough I've experienced (three so far) was met with back pay. Seems pretty wasteful, but again, politics often is. As much as we like days off, we'd rather not be political pawns. There are also reductions-in-force (RIFs) but generally federal managers try to accommodate those through attrition (such as retirements) or reassignment.

State government jobs are stable but, not as stable as federal jobs. It varies widely depending on the state. In some states state employees are virtually impossible to lay-off; other states not so much.

Local government jobs are like state, but even less stable. It's harder to reassign personnel at the local level, so loosing your job as a local government employee can be a real problem, particularly in a bad economy where tax revenues are down and cuts need to be made somewhere in the budget. Airport jobs are not immune to this, either.

The concept of "job stability" is very different today from where it was a few decades ago. Much of it is generational. No matter who you are or what you do, you should always be planning for your next job and always remain marketable, regardless of who your current employer is.
 
I'll try to answer your question:

Not all government jobs are the same. Federal jobs tend to be pretty stable, with occasional politically motivated temporary furloughs. As a Fed you should anticipate the possibility of such an even and plan your savings strategy accordingly. Every furlough I've experienced (three so far) was met with back pay. Seems pretty wasteful, but again, politics often is. As much as we like days off, we'd rather not be political pawns. There are also reductions-in-force (RIFs) but generally federal managers try to accommodate those through attrition (such as retirements) or reassignment.

State government jobs are stable but, not as stable as federal jobs. It varies widely depending on the state. In some states state employees are virtually impossible to lay-off; other states not so much.

Local government jobs are like state, but even less stable. It's harder to reassign personnel at the local level, so loosing your job as a local government employee can be a real problem, particularly in a bad economy where tax revenues are down and cuts need to be made somewhere in the budget. Airport jobs are not immune to this, either.

The concept of "job stability" is very different today from where it was a few decades ago. Much of it is generational. No matter who you are or what you do, you should always be planning for your next job and always remain marketable, regardless of who your current employer is.

Thanks for the response! Good answer!
 
I call BS on that.

That does not sound like something Warren Buffett would say. His Vice Chair Charlie Munger, maybe -- Charlie is outspoken. But Warren is very polite.

Anyway, you don't even know his name. It is spelled with a double t."

Despite my typo, you obviously knew to whom I was referring and someone else pointed out the quote came from him. So, I'll double-check my spelling next time. You can double-check your facts.
 
Having worked in local and federal gov't, I think every third or fourth employee could be abducted by aliens, with no discernable impact - not that a full third or fourth of them are lazy bums (O.K., maybe a fourth or fifth); just that so much of what they do really is of marginal value, and wuite inefficient. Working hard, if you will (sometimes), but not working smart.

If you knew to the penny what you pay in taxes, you'd still be under-reporting the actuals - many of your services (phone, wireless, brick-and-mortars) pay "fees" to gov't that are buried in the base costs, and usually are not allowed to be articulated on your bill.
 
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