Is gas pricing you out of aviation?

[Pi1otguy]

Well, a few weeks ago I got to the point where I feel priced out of driving my car (for the most part) and now take the bus. Its not truly about my inability to redirect funds in my personal budget, but the emotional pain and anguish I feel when paying >$3.199/gal at the pump. Its really frustrating because every increase in avgas prices threatens to raise my rental prices to the point that I may soon find myself priced out of aviation for similar reason that my car doesn't move for days at a time.

At what point do you feel gas prices will price you out of aviation?

 

[KennyFlys]

Aviation costs aren't so bad for me, yet. Soon, I'll be flying and let someone else pay.

But, as I'm still working as a courier it's killing me. Twelve years ago, my expenses were less than five percent of my revenue. During that time, courier charges have gone up only about forty-fifty percent. My expenses have gone up over five-hundred percent. Sometimes I have to turn down work because I'd operate at a loss not to mention the non-tangible losses.

 

[RogerT]

Our 100LL is already at just a few cents under $5/gal. If I were still trying
to feed a factory built plane burning 10 to 12 gph I would be priced out. A
couple years ago I made the decision to get out of that because of ever rising costs and go experimental. So I built a Sport Pilot eligible plane
that burns 3 1/2 to 4 gph and I can do all the maintenance and inpections.
I don't know how to fly any cheaper.

RT

 

[Ken Ibold]

I didn't vote. It costs what it costs.

Edit: OK, I just voted the >$1 because I suppose if it was $100 a gallon or something it wouldn't make sense. But my flying is limited by time/opportunity rather than cost. I wouldn't fly more if it was free.

 

[SCCutler]

Fuel is costly, but so is life. We do not into flying because it is cost-effective, and fuel is, while a substantial cost, hardly the only thing for which we have to pay for the privilege of flying.

Like Ken said, "It costs what it costs."

 

[bjohnson]

I try to plan my fuel stops at airports that have cheap prices. The more I save the more I get to fly. When I use my plane for business my client is paying the tab. If I keep my trips to within 350nm of my home airport it’s still cheaper than a last minute airline ticket. And you can't put a price on skipping TSA lines and the whole convenience thing.

Like Ken said “it costs what it costs”

I voted > $1

 

[Dean]

If gas prices go as high as they predict and avgas follows, we could see it at almost $10.00 a gallon. If that happens I wonder what airplane prices will do. There will either be a lot of cheap ones or a lot sitting in hangars that no one wants to sell for losing to much money or just riding it out.

 

[Bill]

If gas prices go as high as they predict and avgas follows, we could see it at almost $10.00 a gallon. If that happens I wonder what airplane prices will do. There will either be a lot of cheap ones or a lot sitting in hangars that no one wants to sell for losing to much money or just riding it out.

The market is already starting to adjust, twins keep getting cheaper, yet continue to have sluggish sales. I think big bore singles are going to start to feel the pinch, while efficient aircraft may actually hold value or see them rise slightly.

As for gas, I hate to pay more for something, but it won't be a no-go issue.

 

[Tom-D]

I fly for fun, when a couple hours are well over 100 bucks in fuel alone, it ain't fun.

Several of my retired friends have quit flying, they can no longer afford it.

My customers that normally show me 50-60- hours in the aircraft logs are showing me 5-10 hours usage.

Yes it effecting aviation

 

[flyersfan31]

I'm with Ken. I'll pay what it takes, but I'll definitely shop around more.

 

[SCCutler]

One thing to bear in mind-

a very substantial proportion of the price of avgas is not related to the price of oil, and this proportion is greater for avgas than for car gas. Yes, the price will inevitably rise with oil, but it should not rise in direct proportion to the price of oil. If it does, there's opportunistic gouging going on.

We should be wary of that.

 

[Bill]

Yes, the price will inevitably rise with oil, but it should not rise in direct proportion to the price of oil. If it does, there's opportunistic gouging going on.

We should be wary of that.

In recent weeks, I've paid as much as $5.25/g and as little as $3.60/g. Think the $5.25 guy might be gouging a little bit, considering the $3.60 guy is still making some money?

If schedule allows, I use 100LL.com to find low priced airports along my route, and plan fuel to arrive there with only an hour of reserves.

 

[Everskyward]

Interesting that the bell curve looks more like a bowl. Since I have never owned an airplane I am curious about how much the cost of fuel compares percentagewise to the total cost of owning an airplane. Obviously that depends on the airplane. An expensive, but fuel efficient airplane which is kept in a hangar at a busy airport would be less affected than a cheap gas-guzzler tied down on a grass strip. Anyone want to give me some estimates?

 

[Bill]

I am curious about how much the cost of fuel compares percentagewise to the total cost of owning an airplane. Obviously that depends on the airplane. An expensive, but fuel efficient airplane which is kept in a hangar at a busy airport would be less affected than a cheap gas-guzzler tied down on a grass strip. Anyone want to give me some estimates?

Are you talking just ongoing costs associated with operating the aircraft, or are you including the capital costs as well?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I'm with Ken. I'll pay what it takes, but I'll definitely shop around more.

Not yet....It costs what it costs....

 

[gismo]

Not yet....It costs what it costs....

And if you compare the other costs of flying as they have increased over the years, I doubt that fuel will stick out.

-lance

 

[Sleek-Jet]

Not out of aviation... I'll be walking to the airport before gas prices push me out of flying the airplane.

I can say that my Motorhome hasn't moved in 6 months, and my boat stayed dry all summer...

 

[Everskyward]

Are you talking just ongoing costs associated with operating the aircraft, or are you including the capital costs as well?

Including capital costs. I guess my point is that if you can afford to buy an airplane you should be able to afford to fill it. Seems like fuel would be a minor expense compared to the capital and fixed costs like insurance, hangar, etc. But maybe not.

 

[Keith Lane]

Including capital costs. I guess my point is that if you can afford to buy an airplane you should be able to afford to fill it. Seems like fuel would be a minor expense compared to the capital and fixed costs like insurance, hangar, etc. But maybe not.

For me at least, affording the plane and affording the operating expenses are no longer related. I paid $20K for the plane 10 years ago (no payments left) and my annuals go for around $500-$800 per year. Tie down is free and insurance is ~~$700/year. Ten years ago I burned about 10 GPH at $1.75/gallon and now it's 10 GPH at >$3.80/gallon. Gas prices have affected my flying schedule to the extent that when I do get the chance to fly, I look at the (flying) bank account and see what is there. 5 years ago, that wasn't the case. I'd go poke a hole in the sky at the drop of a hat.
It ain't getting better. I haven't had a pay raise in 2 1/2 years and when I get my next one, it'll probably go towards paying for the gas to get to and from work rather than flying. I gotta invent something that eats garbage and pi$$e$ gasoline. Then I'd have enough money to buy everybody here a tanker of 100LL.

 

[KennyFlys]

I think if folks performed the recommended maintenance and inspections on autos the same as they are "required" on aircraft, they would find roughly the same ratios to those of aircraft but on a larger scale depending on the aircraft. However, most maintenance and inspections on autos are ignored, seemingly making them considerbly less expensive.

Bottom line, it's a more expensive tool, toy or what have you to operate. You operate an auto to the needs you have and further to your enjoyment. An airplane is no different.

But, to put it another way... a fix for a pilot cost a heck of a lot more than a fix for a Corvette owner.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Seems like fuel would be a minor expense compared to the capital and fixed costs like insurance, hangar, etc. But maybe not.

I don't know about minor, but here are my ballpark numbers.

Insurance: 3200/yr
Hangar: 6000/yr
Annual: 3000/yr
Other mx: 3000/yr

Fuel: 17 gph

So, that's 15,200/yr excluding capital costs, plus fuel. At 17 gph, $4.50/gal, and 120 hours/yr, that's just shy of 25K per year out of pocket. Figure in engine and prop reserves and you're up to about $28,000 a year, of which the cost of fuel is less than one-third.

Fly less, and fuel is a smaller percentage. Fly more and it's a larger percentage.

 

[Everskyward]

I don't know about minor, but here are my ballpark numbers.

I knew I shouldn't have used the word "minor" when talking about the expense of anything related to airplanes.

 

[ScottM]

Interesting that the bell curve looks more like a bowl. Since I have never owned an airplane I am curious about how much the cost of fuel compares percentagewise to the total cost of owning an airplane. Obviously that depends on the airplane. An expensive, but fuel efficient airplane which is kept in a hangar at a busy airport would be less affected than a cheap gas-guzzler tied down on a grass strip. Anyone want to give me some estimates?

For my PA28-161 I fly about 100 to 120 hours per year. At 8gal/hr that is 800 to 960 gals/yr at an average cost of $4.10/gal = $3280 to $3936 or on average $3608 for fuel/year

Annual costs: $1500
Insurance costs: $1000
Hangar costs: $3000
Toys and incidentals: $2400

Or a total of $11508 (includes fuel) / year

That would mean fuel is about 30% of my costs per year.

Does that help?

 

[tonycondon]

I'd say fuel was a minor percentage of my annual operating cost.

 

[ScottM]

I'd say fuel was a minor percentage of my annual operating cost.

As a percentage of cost I would think the opposite. Since most of your costs are so low for the glider to begin with it is your tow costs that probably add the most cost/year. The cost of those tows has to be very related to fuel and would thus affect you total percentage to a great extent.

What are your yearly costs?

Annual: $150
Insurance: ($500-guess)
Storage: (250-guess)
--------------------
$900/year plus tows

 

[Everskyward]

Does that help?

I need all the help I can get... Just kidding. I'm only idly curious. I've never seriously considered owning an airplane probably because I've seen all the expenses incurred while flying other people's airplanes.

The fuel price discussion got me thinking. If fuel goes up about $1/gal that's approximately a 25% increase. If you and Ken are saying your fuel expenses are about 30% of the total expenses, that would mean your total expenses would go up by 7.5% if I did the math correctly. I don't think either one of you included capital costs, which in my mind would be a big proportion of the cost of ownership, so really a $1/gal increase is not that much when considering the big picture. See, now I justified everyone continuing to fly even if the cost of fuel goes up $1/gal.

I'll crawl under my rock now and shut up.

 

[Bill]

I don't think either one of you included capital costs, which in my mind would be a big proportion of the cost of ownership, so really a $1/gal increase is not that much when considering the big picture.

You can't really include any of the capital costs in the operations spreadsheet, otherwise the spreadsheet is totally whack. I just choose the osterich route and choose not to look at it.

I look at owning an airplane like owning a house. If you maintain it, you should (barring GA crapping out) get your money out at the end. Rentals just pi$$ the money down the drain. Also, having the type of aircraft I want ready to go at a monents notice is worth the price.

 

[Bill]

I don't know about minor, but here are my ballpark numbers.

Insurance: 3200/yr
Hangar: 6000/yr
Annual: 3000/yr
Other mx: 3000/yr

Fuel: 17 gph.

!.) We're new at this, so we're still finding out
2.) We are in partnership, and that helps a great deal

Insurance: $2700, $1350ea, should go down next renewal with retract experience
Hangar: $2220, $1110ea
Annual: $1700, no squawk, maybe $3500-4000 realistically? $1500-2000ea
Other: unknown

Fuel: 10gph

We're charging each other $35 dry, pilot buys his own fuel. Fixed costs (hangar/ins) are divided and paid. In the first 100hrs, mx has run $20/hr, but we were hit with a prop seal right after purchase. The $35 is mx/engine only, upgrades come from the wallet.

The 430 is out now for the WAAS upgrade, so that will hit the wallet soon.

$5/g*10g/h*120h = $6000/yr fuel
$35*120 = $4200 into the mx fund per year
fixed 1350+1100+2000=$4450

So, for me to fly 120hrs/yr in my half of the Mooney:

$14,650ish total
of that $6000 is fuel

Fuel is 41% of the budget. A dollar increase in fuel price increases the annual budget 4%.

Ignoring capital cost

 

[ejensen]

Fuel prices will make me cut out some frivolous flying and be more efficient at training. But what is really making me think are the almost mandatory upgrade to the panel. IFR-GPS, ADS-B, 406 ELT, hard to put $15-20,000 in a $60,000 aircraft. Plus I don't think new technology will last as long as the old. My 20 year old digital nav/comm are still good, will the Garmin 530 last that long?

 

[Ken Ibold]

I don't think either one of you included capital costs, which in my mind would be a big proportion of the cost of ownership...

The capital cost is hard to generalize because it depends so much on your personal financial picture. I had an airplane loan once. Never again. I made the mistake of putting the monthly loan payment into the cost per hour. YIKES!!! Nothing like a $350 per hour Citabria!! But that ignored that I got a tax break on the interest and I was building equity (though slowly). The wisdom of borrowing money for anything depends so much on your personal finances that's really a separate decision. And whether you pay cash or have a loan, you still own the underlying asset.

Owning an airplane outright gets rid of that interest thing, but then you have the matter of what if you'd invested the cash elsewhere into something that gave you a return. Well, depending on WHAT you invest it in, that return might be illusory. Unless you stick with CDs or MMA or something, your return is impossible to accurately predict. And because the airplane probably will not lose much value, if any (except to inflation), I just ignore the cost of capital for aircraft justification purposes.

 

[Bill]

The wisdom of borrowing money for anything depends so much on your personal finances that's really a separate decision.

Owning an airplane outright gets rid of that interest thing, but then you have the matter of what if you'd invested the cash elsewhere into something that gave you a return. Well, depending on WHAT you invest it in, that return might be illusory.

Yup, after looking at tax credits on a loan, vs predicting the markets (be it stocks, commodities, real estate, etc.), I consider it close enough to be a wash. Do what feels comfortable to you.

 

[tonycondon]

As a percentage of cost I would think the opposite. Since most of your costs are so low for the glider to begin with it is your tow costs that probably add the most cost/year. The cost of those tows has to be very related to fuel and would thus affect you total percentage to a great extent.

What are your yearly costs?

Annual: $150
Insurance: ($500-guess)
Storage: (250-guess)
--------------------
$900/year plus tows

Insurance is more like 200 or so, i just have liability coverage. but yea i'd agree that the tow cost is fair percentage of my total cost. probably around 50%. The cost of tows are somewhat driven by the cost of gas, but like your airplanes, the fuel cost is a minor percentage of the operating cost of the towplane.

 

[Ted]

I put down >$1/gal. Aviation isn't cheap. I view this as similar to the argument of people insisting on going out and buying hybrids because they don't like paying the gas bill. I recnetly bought a 2000 Ford Excursion with the thirsty V10 (12-15 mpg), and I figure it'll get about 15-20k miles/year. Well, I bought it because I need a vehicle with that sort of capacity and capabilities. But these things also cost almost nothing (I paid $8000 after purchase, some initial preventative maintenance, and minor repairs). I have a friend who went out and traded his SUV in very nice shape on a new Mazda - which cost him $25,000. He only got about $3,000 in trade-in on his SUV, and his only reason was gas costs. Gee, $22,000 buys a lot of gas.

For me, the biggest thing is I would like to be able to use auto gas in a plane. Evening paying premium unleaded prices (at roughly $3.30/gallon in my area, with AvGas at $4.50) would be a tremendous savings that would pay for itself rather quickly, and that will increase further as AvGas goes up and up in price.

You can also find ways to make it more affordable. For example, even owning a gas guzzling 6-passenger twin becomes reasonably practical if you generally have 4 people in it and take it on long trips. This is doubly so if you live in an area where commercial flights aren't that great.

Still, the fact that I am looking at purchasing a twin should indicate that I'm not too concerned with fuel pricing.

 

[Pi1otguy]

I suppose that unlike driving, fuel prices are not as big a portion of non-capital cost. For me, the fuel I used to put in my SUV-lite came up to almost 1/3 the car payment. When my dad bought his Prius we did the math (@ $2.609/gal & -15% of epa milage) and figured he'd recoup the markup (vs a regular car) in gas savings in a few years. With prices this high I'm sure he is almost even if not ahead.

Unfortunately for me flying is done near the limits of my fiscal abilities. Every $0.10- $0.20 increase in mogas loosely translates to an extra $5-$10/hr that I can barely afford. Sometimes it makes me think we need to crash the world economies to drop oil prices, but thats a crazy idea for another thread.

 

[bbchien]

Actually we just did the math on the Prius vs. a Fusion. The price difference was about $7,000. We drive the card about 15,000 miles a year. The Fusion will get 23 overall, the Prius 43 overall. 652 vs. 349 gallons, or $915 per year (@3.15/gal). Problem is, they only give the battery pack eight year's life, and that's $3,200 in constant value dollars, meaning a 10 year payback.

It's pretty much a wash. But one thing for sure, either vehicle made trading in our 2001 Odyssey (17 mpg average or 882 gal) worth it.

We loved the Prius. We bought the Fusion. We have a daughter who will eventually need it.

I will pay for 20 gph for the Seneca II for a long time. I get FIKI, SE service ceiling of over 14,000 feet (Merlin wastegates), and one good crack at an ILS in an emergency. That's priceless.

 

[gibbons]

Fuel and insurance both drove me out of the acro airplane. I just couldn't stand thinking that a 35 minute training flight cost about $200.

If fuel keeps going up it will eventually drive me out of flying all together. I don't know what I'm willing to pay, but it's probably not as much as Exxon is willing to charge.

 

[jshawley]

I could afford $65.00/hr + Tax wet in a C152. That plane's no longer available; instead, a Warrior at $65.00/hr + tax DRY is on the line. That's over budget, so I haven't even checked out in it. I'm currently priced out of the air.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Unfortunately for me flying is done near the limits of my fiscal abilities. Every $0.10- $0.20 increase in mogas loosely translates to an extra $5-$10/hr that I can barely afford.

What do you fly that burns mogas at 50 gph???

 

[skyflyer8]

The fuel price increase over the past 2-1/2 years has caused the cost of obtaining a private pilot certificate at our school to increase $940 if you figure 40 hours of airplane rental, or $1,527 if you figure 65 hours of airplane rental.

That doesn't price me out of aviation, since I'm not buying the gas, but it can discourage some students away from the private. It can in turn encourage sport pilot flying.

 

[Pi1otguy]

What do you fly that burns mogas at 50 gph???

Avgas, but somehow higher gas prices cause even higher rises avgas prices. Plus insurance, maintenance, & other overhead seem to simultaneously rise while shrinking the FBO's profit margin. Or at least that’s what they say during every rate increase.