Is Flying Under A TFR Legal?

Shepherd

Shepherd

Final Approach
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Shepherd
Yes you read that correctly.
Refer to your New York Sectional, West Point, Mitchell Stadium.
Mitchell Stadium sits at @350 ' MSL. So a game TFR will extend from 350 to 5,350 ' and extend out 1 mile over the Hudson River, correct?
Can I legally fly up the Hudson under the TFR?

I ask every CFI I meet, and have gotten some pretty strange answers.
Even my buddy at the Albany FSDO told me to "get lost" when I stopped in to ask him. :-)
 
is the TFR "from the surface to..."? I don't think that means "the surface of 3rd base to..."
 
AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED EXCEPT AS SPECIFIED BELOW WITHIN AN AREA DEFINED AS: 3 NMR OF A QUALIFYING STADIUM OR OTHER SPORTING VENUE HOSTING A QUALIFYING EVENT UP TO AND INCLUDING 3000FT AGL...

Looks like a "no" to me.
 
Well being the land of of West Point is higher than the Hudson. And it doesn’t say surface to 3K, you might have an argument.
 
TommyG said:
Well being the land of of West Point is higher than the Hudson. And it doesn’t say surface to 3K, you might have an argument.
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Or you might have an argument that the TFR goes below the surface…there is no lower limit.

Edit…and the “ground” from which it would be measuring the 3000’ would be underwater, would it not?
 
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Shepherd said:
Yes you read that correctly.
Refer to your New York Sectional, West Point, Mitchell Stadium.
Mitchell Stadium sits at @350 ' MSL. So a game TFR will extend from 350 to 5,350 ' and extend out 1 mile over the Hudson River, correct?
Can I legally fly up the Hudson under the TFR?

I ask every CFI I meet, and have gotten some pretty strange answers.
Even my buddy at the Albany FSDO told me to "get lost" when I stopped in to ask him. :)
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Assuming that aliens have snatched away all the humans and there are no barges, pleasure boats or people on the Hudson, so that you can legally fly under 500 ft AGL ...

I don't blame the FSDO for kicking you out of the office. ;)
 
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The whole point of a TFR is they don't want you there!
 
Joe_B1 said:
The whole point of a TFR is they don't want you there!
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I think the point of the thread was an analogue of the medieval "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" discussion — not something that matters practically, but exploring the edges of theoretical knowledge.

(In the middle ages, the real question was whether angels occupy physical space; if not, then the answer was ∞).
 
Shepherd said:
Yes you read that correctly.
Refer to your New York Sectional, West Point, Mitchell Stadium.
Mitchell Stadium sits at @350 ' MSL. So a game TFR will extend from 350 to 5,350 ' and extend out 1 mile over the Hudson River, correct?
Can I legally fly up the Hudson under the TFR?

I ask every CFI I meet, and have gotten some pretty strange answers.
Even my buddy at the Albany FSDO told me to "get lost" when I stopped in to ask him. :)
Click to expand...
No, because guaranteed you'd break the 500' from any person, vehicle, etc... rule somehow even if there IS a loophole there.
What a waste of brain effort and electrons.
 
Shepherd said:
Even my buddy at the Albany FSDO told me to "get lost" when I stopped in to ask him.
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I guess that was better than him saying “Ummm…can you hand me your pilot’s license for a sec?” :)
 
Shepherd said:
Yes you read that correctly.
Refer to your New York Sectional, West Point, Mitchell Stadium.
Mitchell Stadium sits at @350 ' MSL. So a game TFR will extend from 350 to 5,350 ' and extend out 1 mile over the Hudson River, correct?
Can I legally fly up the Hudson under the TFR?

I ask every CFI I meet, and have gotten some pretty strange answers.
Even my buddy at the Albany FSDO told me to "get lost" when I stopped in to ask him. :-)
Click to expand...

I enjoy this type of question. Always curious to see the theoretical boundaries.
 
The boundaries almost always start at the surface and go up to the altitude, so unless someone were proposing to fly underground, it's a moot question.

There is rarely a TFR with a floor, in which case it's perfectly legal to fly under that.
 
Is Flying Under A TFR Legal?
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Yes. Can you fly under that particular TFR is a different question. If it's up to and including 3000' AGL, then you can't be at less than 3001' AGL. Is the Hudson at less than 3001' AGL?
 
Lindberg said:
Yes. Can you fly under that particular TFR is a different question. If it's up to and including 3000' AGL, then you can't be at less than 3001' AGL. Is the Hudson at less than 3001' AGL?
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And wouldn't AGL have to be calculated from the river bottom?

No wonder Shepherd's friend at the FSDO told him to get lost. :)
 
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So, instead of answering everyone separately. read and look at the examples in the AIM/FAR. All the examples with the circles and arrows show the stadium at ground level or 0' agl, the circle extends out 1 mile from the center of the TFR, and to an altitude of 5,000' above ground level. (Have you ever noticed all examples are someplace where the ground is flat and there are no hills until well past the curvature of the earth.)
Draw the circle on your map.
At 200' msl (or 125' below the ground level of the TFR) and three quarters of a mile from the center of the TFR, I am well away from land, buildings, people. so I am not violating any "too close" rule.
My buddy at the FSDO and I have been doing this sort of thing to each other since the late 1960's. This question was my going away/retirement question to him. :)
He asks me "stump the Pastor" questions and I ask him "stump the FAA" questions.
BTW: I asked one of my lawyer friends this question (he is also a pilot) and he thinks it's legal. But, he's not FAA, so ......

I've actually had 2 instructors almost come to fisticuffs over this. You would think I was talking high wing vs low wing, or insulting someone's Bonanza.
 
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Shepherd said:
I've actually had 2 instructors almost come to fisticuffs over this. You would think I was talking high wing vs low wing, or insulting someone's Bonanza.
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Matt. 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.”

Shep, I’m afraid you might be screwed. :)
 
Since stadium TFRs say “Surface to 3000 AGL”, it doesn’t matter what altitude the surface is at. The top of the TFR is parallel to the terrain.
 
Shepherd said:
Yes you read that correctly.
Refer to your New York Sectional, West Point, Mitchell Stadium.
Mitchell Stadium sits at @350 ' MSL. So a game TFR will extend from 350 to 5,350 ' and extend out 1 mile over the Hudson River, correct?
Can I legally fly up the Hudson under the TFR?

I ask every CFI I meet, and have gotten some pretty strange answers.
Even my buddy at the Albany FSDO told me to "get lost" when I stopped in to ask him. :)
Click to expand...
Is there bridge?:devil: Next time ya see yer buddy from FSDO, give him a high five from me:rofl:
 
So is the top of the TFR an exact contour of the ground then?

Lets say this stadium sits atop a 3000' cliff along the ocean. The TFR goes to 6000 MSL above the stadium, but just 100' away from the stadium the TFR goes to only 3000 MSL. Sounds like as long as I keep 500'(or 1000') away from the stadium I can fly at stadium elevation.
 
EdFred said:
So is the top of the TFR an exact contour of the ground then?

Lets say this stadium sits atop a 3000' cliff along the ocean. The TFR goes to 6000 MSL above the stadium, but just 100' away from the stadium the TFR goes to only 3000 MSL. Sounds like as long as I keep 500'(or 1000') away from the stadium I can fly at stadium elevation.
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Sounds right.
 
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