Is an approval an instruction?

[Lindberg]

Hypothetical scenario:

Banner Tow 123 is at 1600' under a 2000' Class B shelf, approaching Class D that is half under the 2000' shelf and half under the higher, 3000', shelf. The D goes up to -20. The following conversation takes place:

BT: Tower, Banner Tow 123 is 5 miles east at 1600, transitioning to the west.
Tower: Banner Tow 123, Tower, transition approved at or above 2000'.

Two-way radio communication has been established. Banner Tow has not been explicitly told to remain clear. Does the statement that the transition is approved at or above 2000' (which is outside of the D) carry the same effect as an instruction to stay out? If anyone's got an official citation, that would be appreciated.

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

The reply from Tower does not make sense to me. I would have asked for clarification.

 

[frfly172]

You would need to be cleared through the Bravo by the B controller.

 

[Shawn]

You have received an instruction which you are required to follow...how could you enter D if you are to remain at or above 2000'?

To get Bravo clearance you would need to get clearance from Approach. D Tower does not provide air traffic services to Bravo....unrelated issue to your question.

You have established and maintained communication with the facility providing air traffic services to Delta which is the authorization to enter (14 CFR 91.129)

However you also received an explicit instruction that would necessitate you to remain clear to follow said instruction.(14 CFR 91.123 (b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.)

So yes, instruction is same as "remain clear" as presented IMO because to enter D you would be violating noted portion of 91.123 as presented.

 

[Lindberg]

You would need to be cleared through the Bravo by the B controller.

Or fly out from under the 2000' shelf and then over the part of the D under the higher shelf. Either of which is a big PITA.

 

[Lindberg]

The reply from Tower does not make sense to me. I would have asked for clarification.

Banner Tow: Say again for Banner Tow 123, was that, "at or above 2000?"
Tower: Affirmative, transition approved at or above 2000', there are planes in the pattern.

 

[Palmpilot]

I don't think an approval constitutes an instruction, but just in case the tower controller thinks otherwise, I would remain clear of the class D until the issue was resolved.

"Unable due to bravo airspace at 2000."

A Seattle Approach controller once told me to maintain an altitude right at the floor of the bravo without giving me a clearance. I should have said unable without a bravo clearance, because there is no such thing as either measuring altitude exactly or maintaining it exactly.

 

[Sundancer]

With "Transition approved at or above 2000'. " I think BannerTow isn't cleared into the D.

Real world I think some Ds get "courtesy calls" - I used to hear it a lot at Easton on Maryland's eastern shore - guys flying over, above the D, would let the tower know, and the response was very much like "transition approved at or above 2600'. Sort of an "automatic" response.

The controller might have missed the 1600' altitude reported by BannerTow. Or, he doesn't want BannerTow in his airspace. Regardless of the FAR fine points, right or wrong, I wouldn't want to cross up the controller's expectations - make another call to sort it out before entering the D.

 

[luvflyin]

Hypothetical scenario:



Two-way radio communication has been established. Banner Tow has not been explicitly told to remain clear. Does the statement that the transition is approved at or above 2000' (which is outside of the D) carry the same effect as an instruction to stay out? If anyone's got an official citation, that would be appreciated.

He’s telling you that he does not want you in the D. That does not constitute a Clearance into the B. He could have simply said unable and the result would have been the same.

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

"Transition Approved ..." sounds to me like the controller is approving transition through their Class D airspace as they can obviously not approve transition through a Class B airspace and there is no need to approve a transition above a Class D airspace which is nobody else's airspace in particular.
But then the portion "... at or above 2000'" which the OP said is above the height of the Class D airspace then sounds like the controller is saying to remain outside of Class Delta although using different phrasing.
So this reads as the controller giving approval to transition through the Class Delta while also instructing to remain above Class Delta. It makes no sense but is the way it sounds to me.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Hypothetical scenario:

Two-way radio communication has been established. Banner Tow has not been explicitly told to remain clear. Does the statement that the transition is approved at or above 2000' (which is outside of the D) carry the same effect as an instruction to stay out? If anyone's got an official citation, that would be appreciated.

I see a few different questions here.

Leaving the Class B issue out of the mix, I have no problem with "transition approved at or above 2000'" being treated as in instruction to stay at or above 2,000'. Sorry, no references. Since neither "remain clear" nor "transition approved" are official FAA terms, all we have to go on is the English language.

Half under half over? I'd need to see the chart and would probably want to clarify something. I never, ever, ever, ever assume a Class B clearance when VFR. I insist on hearing the "magic words." The other is that, on the face of it, the tower is apparently approving a transition that includes areas outside their airspace and inside the Class B. BTW, that does not necessarily mean the Tower has no authority to issue a Class B clearance. We have no idea what letters of agreement exist between Tower and TRACON. Another good reason to insist on the "magic words."

 

[Ed Haywood]

So if the intent is for the aircraft to remain clear of the Delta, should the pilot consider how far down the banner hangs?

 

[Lindberg]

I see a few different questions here.

Leaving the Class B issue out of the mix, I have no problem with "transition approved at or above 2000'" being treated as in instruction to stay at or above 2,000'. Sorry, no references. Since neither "remain clear" nor "transition approved" are official FAA terms, all we have to go on is the English language.

Half under half over? I'd need to see the chart and would probably want to clarify something. I never, ever, ever, ever assume a Class B clearance when VFR. I insist on hearing the "magic words." The other is that, on the face of it, the tower is apparently approving a transition that includes areas outside their airspace and inside the Class B. BTW, that does not necessarily mean the Tower has no authority to issue a Class B clearance. We have no idea what letters of agreement exist between Tower and TRACON. Another good reason to insist on the "magic words."

No Class B clearance was assumed. Even if Tower could do it, he didn't offer the words.

Consider the red line to be a desirable route. Green is another possible alternative, but a very narrow corridor. All of this complicated by two adjacent Ds, but one more accommodating than the other.

 

[Palmpilot]

No Class B clearance was assumed. Even if Tower could do it, he didn't offer the words.

Consider the red line to be a desirable route. Green is another possible alternative, but a very narrow corridor. All of this complicated by two adjacent Ds, but one more accommodating than the other.

View attachment 117644

If I couldn't work it out with GPM tower, I guess I would do a 180 until I could turn to get under the 3000-foot shelf and climb to 2500.

 

[Lindberg]

If I couldn't work it out with GPM tower, I guess I would do a 180 until I could turn to get under the 3000-foot shelf and climb to 2500.

The X is actually a bit north of where the conversation took place. It was actually in GKY's airspace. So was able to turn south and get out from under and then climb to 2000', wasting time and fuel.

 

[midlifeflyer]

No Class B clearance was assumed. Even if Tower could do it, he didn't offer the words.

Consider the red line to be a desirable route. Green is another possible alternative, but a very narrow corridor. All of this complicated by two adjacent Ds, but one more accommodating than the other.

View attachment 117644

Ah... banner tow for the stadiums. My answer will be ignorant since I know nothing about the local practices of the Dallas Class B.

I would have been on flight following with Dallas. Given the location of the stadiums and the location of the the three Class Ds (especially that narrow corridor) I'd expect it to be where Dallas handles traffic, coordinates transitions, and even issues Class B clearances at or below 2500 regularly. Given that very narrow corridor (which I would not navigate NORDO), TRACON might even own an upper part of the GPM Class D under a LOA.

You also mentioned that one was accommodating and one not. From the picture, I'm assuming GPM is the bad guy. In which case, if TRACON doesn't work, I'd suck it up, climb to 1900 under the shelf, get the transition from GKY, climb another 100-200' and turn east. If that doesn't work, I guess I'd have to suck it up more.

 

[Lindberg]

Ah... banner tow for the stadiums. My answer will be ignorant since I know nothing about the local practices of the Dallas Class B.

I would have been on flight following with Dallas. Given the location of the stadiums and the location of the the three Class Ds (especially that narrow corridor) I'd expect it to be where Dallas handles traffic, coordinates transitions, and even issues Class B clearances at or below 2500 regularly. Given that very narrow corridor (which I would not navigate NORDO), TRACON might even own an upper part of the GPM Class D under a LOA.

You also mentioned that one was accommodating and one not. From the picture, I'm assuming GPM is the bad guy. In which case, if TRACON doesn't work, I'd suck it up, climb to 1900 under the shelf, get the transition from GKY, climb another 100-200' and turn east. If that doesn't work, I guess I'd have to suck it up more.

View attachment 117652

The orange line is the route I'd fly as well, if this wasn't a hypothetical situation. But when you can only go 60kts, climb at 20fpm at full throttle, and are operating with minimum fuel reserves, it's a big PITA. Unfortunately, flight following is often incompatible with banner towing. Banner towing requires you to be at a particular place at a particular time. And as we all know, you don't always get that with flight following. Even when showing in transit, clients don't want you flying around randomly for ATC's convenience. So when a controller decides to be a pain, he makes it harder for the next guy.

Me personally, when I'm going, I talked to ATC as much as is practicable. Even if I'm just outside of a class D I'll let them know that I'm there, I'm on their frequency, and how long I'll be there. The vast majority of controllers at least recognize that we're doing a job and accommodate as much as they possibly can. But there's always that guy, So many banner tow pilots won't say a peep to ATC unless they're required to.

And that narrow corridor is actually a perfect example, because flying the green route without taking to anyone would be a much more convenient route for the banner tow, and almost certainly worse from ATC's perspective.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The orange line is the route I'd fly as well, if this wasn't a hypothetical situation. But when you can only go 60kts, climb at 20fpm at full throttle, and are operating with minimum fuel reserves, it's a big PITA. Unfortunately, flight following is often incompatible with banner towing. Banner towing requires you to be at a particular place at a particular time. And as we all know, you don't always get that with flight following. Even when showing in transit, clients don't want you flying around randomly for ATC's convenience. So when a controller decides to be a pain, he makes it harder for the next guy.

Me personally, when I'm going, I talked to ATC as much as is practicable. Even if I'm just outside of a class D I'll let them know that I'm there, I'm on their frequency, and how long I'll be there. The vast majority of controllers at least recognize that we're doing a job and accommodate as much as they possibly can. But there's always that guy, So many banner tow pilots won't say a peep to ATC unless they're required to.

And that narrow corridor is actually a perfect example, because flying the green route without taking to anyone would be a much more convenient route for the banner tow, and almost certainly worse from ATC's perspective.

I really haven't had the experience of being refused flight following based on being in a certain area for a period of time. Actually the opposite. Some flights schools use FF in the practice area. I've had it while doing circles around Mt Hood in Oregon.

but I can appreciate you have special needs when banner towing,

 

[Lindberg]

I really haven't had the experience of being refused flight following based on being in a certain area for a period of time. Actually the opposite. Some flights schools use FF in the practice area. I've had it while doing circles around Mt Hood in Oregon.

but I can appreciate you have special needs when banner towing,

It's not a question of being denied flight following but of approach moving you around to meet their needs. And around here, that happens a lot under the B shelves. If Jim is proposing in his backyard at 6:00, then you're either circling his backyard at 6:00 or everybody's ****ed and nobody's getting paid. So you can't risk receiving instructions that interfere with timing or location. Like I said, usually ATC is great, but you just can't take the chance that "that guy" is working today. Traffic not really an issue since 1) giant banner, 2) ADSB, and 3) monitoring frequencies.