IR training is exhausting!

Jim K

Jim K

Final Approach
PoA Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
5,971
Location
CMI
Display Name
Display name:
Richard Digits
I wasn't prepared for how mentally tiring it is. Did 1.6 under the hood today...ILS, RNAV, ILS, RNAV, lots of switching GPS to NAV and back, uncontrolled field radio calls, switching approach plates, course reversals...by the time we got home I was beat. Pulled up to the stoplight leading out of the airport, watched it turn green, had to think about it for about 10s before I realized that means I can go....

It's exciting, but definitely can't go for as long as PPL maneuvers. We've shot all the types of approaches the plane is equipped for, so we're going to start doing more XC and less hammering approaches back to back, so that should be a lot more fun. Didn't think I'd get it done this year, but since all our travel plans got cancelled, I'm on track for an August check ride.
 
sounds like the xc will be nice for you.....gives u time to brief, set up, etc.... so that the whole process makes more sense, which makes banging a bunch of approaches easier to do, which makes the next xc even easier, etc....
 
Sounds fun! With all that back to back approach style of practice it will teach you to stay ahead of the plane, anticipate what controllers are going to give or say, have next frequency loaded, ect...
The XC is nice but make that extra time useful ur not putting things off. If you can identify a VOR early do it, brief early and often.
My instructor would purposely start asking questions about work, wife, family, ect before some critical times or transitions to get me Caught behind the plane.
 
It will get easier, and for the most part in the real world things are compressed like that. A short IFR flight is one of the harder things to do. In the work airplane, a 20 min flight is way harder than a 4 hour flight.

But the more you do it, the easier it will be, and you won't have to think about it as much.
 
I was trying to explain to my wife why I was so tired when I came home.....It's like having to put a puzzle together while flying an airplane. But you can only look at the puzzle for 3 seconds at a time or you lose control of the airplane. And there's a time limit.
 
How much time did your CFII devote to plain old attitude instrument flying with maybe one approach per lesson? No navigation, no communication, just learning to fly by instrument reference until airplane control is soaked into your subconscious? When aircraft control becomes instinctive, the other stuff comes fairly easily, but if you are trying to do it all at once you are pushing a rock up a hill. My students logged around five hours of instrument time before we got into approaches, and it was deadly boring...but it paid off in the end.

When all is said and done, only about ten percent of your flight hours will be logged as instrument flight, and of those hours only about ten percent will be while on an approach. My first question when going IFR was always "What are the tops?" because droning through clouds for more than thirty minutes or so in a single engine airplane was my limit (which stretched a tad if I had an autopilot).

Bob Gardner
 
Last edited:
bobmrg said:
How much time did your CFII devote to plain old attitude instrument flying with maybe one approach per lesson? No navigation, no communication, just learning to fly by instrument reference until airplane control is soaked into your subconscious? When aircraft control becomes instinctive, the other stuff comes fairly easily, but if you are trying to do it all at once you are pushing a rock up a hill. My students logged around five hours of instrument time before we got into approaches, and it was deadly boring...but it paid off in the end.

When all is said and done, only about ten percent of your flight hours will be logged as instrument flight, and of those hours only about ten percent will be while on an approach. My first question when going IFR was always "What are the tops?" because droning through clouds for more than thirty minutes or so in a single engine airplane was my limit (which stretched a tad if I had an autopilot).

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

We probably spent 3 hours just doing the 'patterns'. In debriefing our first flight he mentioned that my airplane control was very good and we could move on to approaches faster than he usually does. I had spent a fair bit of time practicing holding altitude while changing speed, climbs, descents, timed turns, tracking courses, etc. on my own before we started.

Part of what makes it harder is that the GPS (KLN94, which is another set of issues) is mounted in front of the right yoke, so it's a reach to get to it. The airplane is really pretty stable and trims out nicely, but it was breezy & bumpy this morning, so you couldn't look away too long; I'm sure that added a lot to the fatigue.

That very first approach we flew reminded me of my first landing during my PPL training....everything happened so fast...they're definitely coming easier now though.
 
I found it to be tiring as well. I did an accelerated course and flew ~ 3 hours morning and another 3ish in the afternoon. When the day ended I was wiped. 2/3rds of the way through, I thought I was never going to "get it". Last couple days it started to click and got pretty easy. What I found valuable was the total saturation. I lived and breathed it. Not advocating accelerated, but rather saying there's some value in training to your limit. Your practical is going to push you hard, so is flying solo in actual. You'll be tired. There's some benefit in reaching that limit as part of training.
 
Hang 4 said:
I found it to be tiring as well. I did an accelerated course and flew ~ 3 hours morning and another 3ish in the afternoon. When the day ended I was wiped. 2/3rds of the way through, I thought I was never going to "get it". Last couple days it started to click and got pretty easy. What I found valuable was the total saturation. I lived and breathed it. Not advocating accelerated, but rather saying there's some value in training to your limit. Your practical is going to push you hard, so is flying solo in actual. You'll be tired. There's some benefit in reaching that limit as part of training.
Click to expand...

I thought about an accelerated course, but at this point I couldn't imagine doing this 6 hours a day. I'm hoping it will stick better as I can go home & ruminate on my mistakes and refly things on xplane.

Tantalum said:
The best feeling coming out the other side of instrument training is being able to fly without frogglez again
Click to expand...

No doubt....I was really zapped last week, so instead of finishing with an approach, he just had me land visually.... felt so good looking outside lol.

Don't know if anyone else had this, but foggles make me nauseous. During ppl I mainly used the asa hood, which I also hated, but when I tried the frosted foggles, my eyes kept trying to focus on the inside of the glasses and really made me sick. I was dreading instrument because of it. I bought some 'blockalls' which are black instead of frosted, and they work great. A little expensive for what they are, but they really solved a problem for me.
 
I'm very close to the same point as you in my training. I got two flights in this weekend with the CFII and both were very different:

Saturday - flew to an airport 25 miles away to do an ILS, then did an RNAV to an airport 5 miles beyond that, then came home for a VOR. Entire flight was 1.9, 1.6 simulated and I was exhausted. There was zero down time during that flight except for about 5 minutes heading back home after briefing the chart and prior to getting vectored. And that down time was used doing the cruise checklist and re-briefing the approach.

Sunday - flew to a single airport about 70 miles away with an ILS there and an RNAV back at home. Just an out and back. The ILS included a DME arc which was new to me so the first leg was spent really going over a lot of that stuff and preparing for it. After the touch and go and getting back with approach control and getting vectored and into cruise I immediately started briefing the RNAV back at home and realized I was finished with everything I "had" to do and we still had 50 miles to go. Whoa. Cruise checklist? Complete. Swapped tanks... Brief again? Now what?

benyflyguy said:
My instructor would purposely start asking questions about work, wife, family, ect before some critical times or transitions to get me Caught behind the plane.
Click to expand...
Then this happened. For the first time in my IR training, we just chatted a little bit about life. Shared a laugh when control came on and she said "archer turn left heading 205" and we were already on 210 and both were expecting a larger turn. (she later gave us 185 and 165 which I kind of liked the "5"s on the headings).

Getting vectored for the RNAV, after flying for over 2 hours now, I was hungry but still felt fine and ready for the approach and then mis-briefed a step down altitude and forgot to set flaps for approach. After 2.3 under the goggles, I was wiped. Even this "easy" flight took a lot out of me and I was even more exhausted after 2.3 hours with the goggles on a simple out and back than I was the previous day doing 1.6 hours with the goggles and never feeling like I had a chance to breathe.

It is exhausting. But so worth it. Every flight I come away excited about the progress and everything I've learned in the books being translated to real world flying. I'm at about 12 hours of IR training now and have felt like it has flown by so far- can't wait to keep pushing!
 
Keep at it, the more you do the better you'll get with it all. I can remember the initial training for the IR in the Florida summer and it was not fun. But to get through it was worth it. At least it was simple tuning of an ILS or NDB frequency. Having a KLN94 over the right yoke doesn't make it easy for you. Nothing says you have to make training as difficult as possible all the time, so find creative ways to make it easier (different view limiting device, etc.). As you probably know, your actual IR flying after the ticket won't be as frequently challenging as your training but you'll have the confidence to know what you can handle.
 
Jim K said:
I bought some 'blockalls' which are black instead of frosted, and they work great. A little expensive for what they are, but they really solved a problem for me.
Click to expand...

I made my own with a pair of safety glasses, some masking tape, and a rattle can of black paint.
 
It takes a lot of brainpower to fly on instruments. It does get a little easier with time and practice. A real IFR flight is typically less hectic than a multiple approach, rapid-fire training run. Usually only one instrument departure and one approach, with (if you have any luck at all) significant flight time between or above layers in the clear. But extending your saturation point through practice will be helpful if you are ever in a bit of a pickle on an IFR trip some day.

I do IPCs every 6 months and they are mentally taxing, but fun and helpful. And a good chance to honestly evaluate your proficiency level.
 
I’m in the same spot in my IFR training. I’m about 4 or 5 lessons in. Yesterday after a long day at work I drove to the airport for a 5pm lesson (upper 80s and lots of bumps and drafts). We did 4 approaches, 2 holds then tracked a VOR back home. I did 1.9 under the “hood” and 2.2 total. I feel brain dead after that. I do have an autopilot, so that defiantly helps but right now I’m only engaging it to brief the approach then I go back to hand flying. It’s defiantly starting to get easier. The hardest part for me is visualizing holding pattern entries. I understand how to make the entries I just have a hard time visualizing it.
 
Last edited:
Only did .9 today. Introduced circling approaches...lot harder in real life than it would appear on paper. Approach unexpectedly put me on an arc and I completely lost the plot. Need to spend some time on the simulator.

Went and did some soft field work on a grass strip Wednesday. It was wonderful. Most fun I've had in an airplane in months.
 
AlphaMike said:
The hardest part for me is visualizing holding pattern entries. I understand how to make the entries I just have a hard time visualizing it.
Click to expand...

Have you tried this technique? The graphic shows you how to visualize this on your heading indicator.

When you're direct to the holding fix, find the outbound course in the holding pattern on your heading indicator. The sector it is in on your heading indicator, see graphic, tells you the type of entry.

You are usually not right at a sector boundary so you don't have to be exact with the 20deg offset of the horizontal line.
 

Attachments

  • Holding Entry.jpg
    Holding Entry.jpg
    149.4 KB · Views: 43
AlphaMike said:
...I understand how to make the entries I just have a hard time visualizing it.
Click to expand...

no law that says u have to visualize it. u use a kneeboard? draw it out real quick. of course u don't wanna take away from your scan or be heads up, heads down...but it doesn't take long to draw a rough sketch. at least for now, til u start to get it.

*not a CFI or even good at IR but just a suggestion
 
I haven't really started flying it, but I'm scoring over 90s on all practice written tests, I like like reading these threads.
 
eman1200 said:
no law that says u have to visualize it. u use a kneeboard? draw it out real quick. of course u don't wanna take away from your scan or be heads up, heads down...but it doesn't take long to draw a rough sketch. at least for now, til u start to get it.

*not a CFI or even good at IR but just a suggestion
Click to expand...

It's good suggestion, works every time. I was having trouble with holds, an instructor told me, just listen, write it down, then draw it out, orient it, put your little airplane on it and it will come together. It works well. Now I just plug it into the magic box and it will fly to it, enter it, and fly it, just like it's drawn. Amazing stuff.
 
Larry, yep that’s exactly what I’ve been doing. I can tell how to enter I just have to look at it and think it through. Then I just have a hard time visually seeing it in my head. Charted approaches are easer now, it’s just the uncharted ones. Like “hold south west on the 204 CAR VOR. I’m heading north to the VOR. That’s when I struggle. But I’m definitely getting better.
 
I got my instrument rating in 1979. It was much easier then, before GPS. Even holds and NDB approaches were easier than mastering the buttonology of today's boxes and their many "gotchas". GPS is great and opens up many destinations with instrument approaches. The magenta line is wonderful. But to be an instrument student today and take a check ride with an IFR-approved GPS aboard, not to mention an oral on the regulations related to GPS use, would be more of a challenge than my 1979 ride.
 
Larry in TN said:
Have you tried this technique? The graphic shows you how to visualize this on your heading indicator.

When you're direct to the holding fix, find the outbound course in the holding pattern on your heading indicator. The sector it is in on your heading indicator, see graphic, tells you the type of entry.

You are usually not right at a sector boundary so you don't have to be exact with the 20deg offset of the horizontal line.
Click to expand...

I like mentally setting up the hold on the DG or HSI as well. Find your inbound course on the compass rose, mentally draw the hold over the compass rose, and then visualize a safe entry that dosen't require a big turn. Don't overthink it. Can you do a direct safely? Do it. No? Can you do a teardrop? Do it. No? Then looks like you are flying a parallel entry. If nothing works, you messed up. Try again. No mnemonics, no rote memorization. Just visualize and fly a safe entry. If both a parallel or teardrop will work, just choose one. If you stay on the protected side of the hold, it's OK. Save brain cells for other tasks.
 
chemgeek said:
I like mentally setting up the hold on the DG or HSI as well. Find your inbound course on the compass rose, mentally draw the hold over the compass rose, and then visualize a safe entry that dosen't require a big turn. Don't overthink it. Can you do a direct safely? Do it. No? Can you do a teardrop? Do it. No? Then looks like you are flying a parallel entry. If nothing works, you messed up. Try again. No mnemonics, no rote memorization. Just visualize and fly a safe entry. If both a parallel or teardrop will work, just choose one. If you stay on the protected side of the hold, it's OK. Save brain cells for other tasks.
Click to expand...

Good plan for real-world flying but to get through the checkride it is necessary to parrot the "correct" answer.
 
AlphaMike said:
Larry, yep that’s exactly what I’ve been doing. I can tell how to enter I just have to look at it and think it through. Then I just have a hard time visually seeing it in my head. Charted approaches are easer now, it’s just the uncharted ones. Like “hold south west on the 204 CAR VOR. I’m heading north to the VOR. That’s when I struggle. But I’m definitely getting better.
Click to expand...
Still sounds like you're working too hard.

In your example, "Southwest on the CAR 204 radial", your outbound course is 204. If you're heading north, 204 is just shy of the 7 o'clock position on your heading indicator so it is a direct entry. It's not within 20 deg of either wing so you don't have to bother with which way to "draw" the horizontal line (for the graphic). Standard turns are right turns so hit the fix, turn right to your outbound heading of 204, and you're in your direct entry.
 
Larry in TN said:
Still sounds like you're working too hard.

In your example, "Southwest on the CAR 204 radial", your outbound course is 204. If you're heading north, 204 is just shy of the 7 o'clock position on your heading indicator so it is a direct entry. It's not within 20 deg of either wing so you don't have to bother with which way to "draw" the horizontal line (for the graphic). Standard turns are right turns so hit the fix, turn right to your outbound heading of 204, and you're in your direct entry.
Click to expand...

That’s what gets me. If I’m heading north and I’m told to hold southwest on the 204 wouldn’t I have to hit the vor then turn left and fly a left tuning pattern? If I turn right and do a standard pattern wouldn’t I be on the southeast side of the VOR?
 
AlphaMike said:
That’s what gets me. If I’m heading north and I’m told to hold southwest on the 204 wouldn’t I have to hit the vor then turn left and fly a left tuning pattern? If I turn right and do a standard pattern wouldn’t I be on the southeast side of the VOR?
Click to expand...

Hhhmmm, sounds like u need about 30 minutes of ground with ur II (or watch any of the YouTube vids out there). Sounds like he should be able to sort these questions out pretty quickly.
 
eman1200 said:
Hhhmmm, sounds like u need about 30 minutes of ground with ur II (or watch any of the YouTube vids out there). Sounds like he should be able to sort these questions out pretty quickly.
Click to expand...

I do understand and I can figure it out it just hard to visualize it lol. I’ve got a wile too go. Still need another 25 CC hours I’m sure I’ll get it. Lol
 
AlphaMike said:
I do understand and I can figure it out it just hard to visualize it lol. I’ve got a wile too go. Still need another 25 CC hours I’m sure I’ll get it. Lol
Click to expand...

There’s no visualizing what the default turn is out of a hold. that’s just something you should know there’s no need to ever visualize it. From what you said in your earlier post it didn’t sound like you were aware which direction the default turn is. And that’s something you can just learn on the ground... should learn before you even get in the plane
 
eman1200 said:
There’s no visualizing what the default turn is out of a hold. that’s just something you should know there’s no need to ever visualize it. From what you said in your earlier post it didn’t sound like you were aware which direction the default turn is. And that’s something you can just learn on the ground... should learn before you even get in the plane
Click to expand...

I definitely know the standard for holding pattern is right turns. But in the example I gave if you turn right after crossing the vor you will be on the unprotected side of the vor. That’s all I’m saying.
 
AlphaMike said:
I definitely know the standard for holding pattern is right turns. But in the example I gave if you turn right after crossing the vor you will be on the unprotected side of the vor. That’s all I’m saying.
Click to expand...

Yah... Get some good ground time on this... If your CFII uses the term "unprotected side of the VOR", get a different CFII.
 
I appreciate all the advice! I really do. But what I’m saying is that I understand you should make a right turn and fly the plane on the out bound leg. What I’m saying is when I try to picture it in my head it just SEEMS wrong to turn to the East when asked to stay west. I know how to do it. I have done it several times. It’s just a mental thing I guess. Lol. Anyway thanks for all the advice. This group is awesome!
 

Attachments

  • 5EC7815C-331A-4696-B37D-C580D5651B51.png
    5EC7815C-331A-4696-B37D-C580D5651B51.png
    348.8 KB · Views: 24
I flew yesterday and it was frustrating to try to maintain altitudes in a very bumpy day.... Constantly busting the 100ft mark...
Felt behind the plane a lot due to constantly correcting for turbulence.
Approaches were ok and one landing was good the other was bad, got pushed sideways by a gust.
I guess it's part of being a pilot to have these types of days. Now on to xplane to redo that day and practice more.
 
AlphaMike said:
I appreciate all the advice! I really do. But what I’m saying is that I understand you should make a right turn and fly the plane on the out bound leg. What I’m saying is when I try to picture it in my head it just SEEMS wrong to turn to the East when asked to stay west. I know how to do it. I have done it several times. It’s just a mental thing I guess. Lol. Anyway thanks for all the advice. This group is awesome!
Click to expand...
Nope again. From a north (360°) arrival [EDIT: "From a north heading] at CRL you turn left for a parallel entry.
 
Last edited:
AlphaMike said:
That’s what gets me. If I’m heading north and I’m told to hold southwest on the 204 wouldn’t I have to hit the vor then turn left and fly a left tuning pattern? If I turn right and do a standard pattern wouldn’t I be on the southeast side of the VOR?
Click to expand...
No. You are reading something into "hold southwest" that isn't there.

The ONLY thing "Southwest" tells you is the general direction FROM THE FIX that you will hold. It does not tell you anything about on which side of the holding course you will be.

"Hold southwest on the XYZ 204". This clarifies that the holding pattern will generally be southwest of XYZ, not northeast. Of course, if it were northeast it would be on the 024 radial, not the 204, but the use of "southwest" is still there to prevent confusion. If XYZ was an NDB, the same holding pattern would be described as "Hold southwest on the 024 bearing-to XYZ as VOR radials are described as FROM while NDB bearings are described as TO. Both of those holding patterns would have an inbound course of 024.

The ONLY thing that specifies which side of the inbound course you will hold is the direction of the hold, right vs. left.

If you have an android device, try this app. It gives you example holding instructions and you determine the type entry.

https://www.pilotscafe.com/products/holding-pattern-trainer-mobile/

This one looks similar for iOS. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/holding-pattern-trainer/id456327713

I used to use the one on this website but Chrome doesn't seem to want to run its Java app anymore. See if it'll work for you. https://www.lunabase.org/~faber/Vault/software/hold_quiz/

Lastly, look at the online navigation simulators here. http://www.luizmonteiro.com/ You can use these to practice any type of instrument navigation. Use it to practice your intercepting, tracking, holding, DME arcs, etc. on your computer before flying those tasks in the airplane.

Don't get in an airplane to practice these tasks until you can do them correctly without excessive thought on the simulators. If you do, you're just wasting money. A hot, bumpy airplane is no place to learn the skills necessary to fly these tasks.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top