IR prep work

[Matthew]

Just wondering, and soliciting some advice:

I'm in that area of post-PP checkride, the 'having fun' period.

I'm trying to look a little ways down the road, towards an instrument rating.

I try to get XC's when I can, but are there any other things I could work on during my fun-flights that would be a benefit towards preparing for IR training? I'm not so much interested in just checking off a box, but more along the lines of 'work on maintaining altitude +/- 50ft'.

Thanks,
Matt

 

[dmccormack]

Just wondering, and soliciting some advice:

I'm in that area of post-PP checkride, the 'having fun' period.

I'm trying to look a little ways down the road, towards an instrument rating.

I try to get XC's when I can, but are there any other things I could work on during my fun-flights that would be a benefit towards preparing for IR training? I'm not so much interested in just checking off a box, but more along the lines of 'work on maintaining altitude +/- 50ft'.

Thanks,
Matt

• Use VORs to navigate. Don't let the needle move more than one dot deflection.
• Vary airspeed and configuration while maintaining altitude
• Test and write down the various Power Attitude Configurations for the airplane you will fly IFR
• Fly right seat for someone that needs a safety pilot
• Practice flying the panel in a desktop sim

 

[CJones]

Work on your ability to maintain heading within a couple of degrees and altitude within 50ft or better. Get comfortable navigating with VOR's. When you're descending to land, work on maintaining a constant rate of descent while maintaining a constant airspeed (altitude with power, speed with attitude).

Instrument flying comes with a lot of extra knowledge of terminology, regulations, procedures, etc., but the greatest change is learning to fly with increase accuracy. If you can make 'accurate' flying second nature, the rest of the stuff will come more easily.

BTW - make sure you maintain VFR principles while doing this until you get a safety pilot - keep your eyes outside.

 

[Trapper John]

I'd just add spend time in Class C & Class D airspace regularly, if you're not already doing that.


Trapper John

 

[Matthew]

Thanks, all.

I do fly at a D airport. I do work on altitude tolerances, but I haven't done too much VOR flying for a while. I tend to aim in the general direction of my destination, and let pilotage take over. I don't do any real strenuous XCs so I'm able to get away with that.

I know I need to be better at descents to landings. I do work on that every time I fly.

I have flown as a safetly pilot before, it's been a while, but I remember how well the guy I was flying with held his descent right down to the minimum on a very gusty, turbulent, crosswind day. I can't fly that well by looking outside.

What I haven't done in a long time is work on altering configurations/airspeeds and maintaining altitude.

I know the technical side of IR will come with training, but I'm trying to put tighter tolerances on my own flying now, so I can have a little bit of a head start.

What I've found is that VFR flying requires me to keep my eyes outside, to the point that I can't catch every altitude and course deviation as quickly as I would like. That, in turn, forces me into doing a quicker, more efficient, scan.

Matt

 

[KennyFlys]

Here's a format for you to use for Power Attitude Configurations. Know what your airplane should be giving you in airspeed for given power and pitch settings for each of those configurations and scenarios. You won't know the approach scenarios yet and I would suggest not doing so until you have an instrument instructor on board to start you on the right path. The last thing you want to do is pick up any bad habits that must be untaught.

 

[poadeleted20]

I wouldn't even think about instrument flying, including VOR tracking or anything else. Your instrument instructor will teach you that properly when you start training, so don't build any bad habits.

Based on my experience taking people through 10-day IR courses, the most critical things you can do are to learn to control your airplane without thinking and build confidence and proficiency talking on the radios. Aircraft control comes from being very demanding on yourself about everything from landings (centerline between the mains, within 100 feet of your selected touchdown point, zero drift, aligned with the runway) to steep turns (rock-steady on altitude, no roller-coastering, bank angle steady -- and no fair trimming!). Developing your power/attitude configurations is another way to learn aircraft control, but again, you have to demand precision of yourself. Also, make sure you can use your feet, especially rolling in and out of turns -- folks who can't keep the ball centered when rolling in and out of turns make life hard on themselves when trying to track the needle later on.

If control of the aircraft isn't second nature when you start IR training, the IR training will be slow and painful.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'd just add spend time in Class C & Class D airspace regularly, if you're not already doing that.

Better yet, get flight following on every cross country.

 

[dmccormack]

I wouldn't even think about instrument flying, including VOR tracking or anything else. Your instrument instructor will teach you that properly when you start training, so don't build any bad habits.

Shouldn't the competent VFR pilot be proficient in VOR tracking anyway?

I don't see how he will acquire bad habits practicing what he should already know.

 

[gprellwitz]

steep turns (rock-steady on altitude, no roller-coastering, bank angle steady -- and no fair trimming!).

Why is trimming not fair? I was certainly taught steep turns with a notch of trim, and I always thought we wanted to try to use the capabilities of the airplane, which would include trim.

And sorry Ron, not meaning to pick on you, but...

you have to demand precition (sic) of yourself.

is just funny! :smile:

 

[poadeleted20]

Shouldn't the competent VFR pilot be proficient in VOR tracking anyway?

Perhaps, but it's just not a priority in preparing to start IR training.

 

[poadeleted20]

Why is trimming not fair? I was certainly taught steep turns with a notch of trim, and I always thought we wanted to try to use the capabilities of the airplane, which would include trim.

Because the purpose here is to teach the feel of holding the nose up to the horizon in a steep bank. If you can't do that in any bank angle from zero to the aerobatic limit, you are not master of the airplane. We're trying to teach folks to be able to roll into a turn, turn, and roll out without gaining or losing altitude. Rolling into a turn and then trimming to hold the nose up defeats the purpose of the exercise -- unless you are going to trim up rolling in and trim down rolling out on every turn you make under the hood, and I kinda doubt that.

 

[gprellwitz]

Because the purpose here is to teach the feel of holding the nose up to the horizon in a steep bank. If you can't do that in any bank angle from zero to the aerobatic limit, you are not master of the airplane. We're trying to teach folks to be able to roll into a turn, turn, and roll out without gaining or losing altitude. Rolling into a turn and then trimming to hold the nose up defeats the purpose of the exercise -- unless you are going to trim up rolling in and trim down rolling out on every turn you make under the hood, and I kinda doubt that.

Thanks! Would a DE see it this way during the PP checkride too, or is this more for additional aircraft mastery prior to embarking on instrument work?

 

[CT Arrow]

Shouldn't the competent VFR pilot be proficient in VOR tracking anyway? quote]

Two words: GPS Direct>.

Before my IFR training I never used VOR's. Really, no need based on where I fly. I would bet I am not alone....

 

[dmccormack]

Shouldn't the competent VFR pilot be proficient in VOR tracking anyway? quote]

Two words: GPS Direct>.

Before my IFR training I never used VOR's. Really, no need based on where I fly. I would bet I am not alone....

How about on the PP checkride?

It's "Radio navigation," and it's required you know how to employ it.

As far as "GPS Direct," Good Grief.

 

[dmccormack]

Perhaps, but it's just not a priority in preparing to start IR training.

The OP asked what he could as he prepared for Instrument training. There's been nothing suggested so far that will "ruin" him or cause bad habits.

The fact is that nearly all IFR students have some habits formed in the previous 100+ hours before they start the IR.

I understand your primary focus has been getting pilots through the IR, and that most (all?) of those have built up some bad habits.

But a competent VFR pilot with mastery over his/her airplane certainly makes a better IR candidate.

 

[jmaynard]

Because the purpose here is to teach the feel of holding the nose up to the horizon in a steep bank. If you can't do that in any bank angle from zero to the aerobatic limit, you are not master of the airplane. We're trying to teach folks to be able to roll into a turn, turn, and roll out without gaining or losing altitude. Rolling into a turn and then trimming to hold the nose up defeats the purpose of the exercise -- unless you are going to trim up rolling in and trim down rolling out on every turn you make under the hood, and I kinda doubt that.

My CFI expects me to do steep turns with a little blip of trim (and a little bump in power) once the bank angle passes 30 degrees. Yes, you're trying to keep the nose on the horizon in a turn, and yes, normal turns don't need it - but how often do you do a 45 degree or greater bank turn in normal, non-mountain flying? How often do you do it IFR, especially?

 

[dmccormack]

My CFI expects me to do steep turns with a little blip of trim (and a little bump in power) once the bank angle passes 30 degrees. Yes, you're trying to keep the nose on the horizon in a turn, and yes, normal turns don't need it - but how often do you do a 45 degree or greater bank turn in normal, non-mountain flying? How often do you do it IFR, especially?

Hopefully --- never.

(And to head off the "Circling approach" case -- you're not flying that IMC -- you should have visual reference to the runway and environment)

 

[JeffDG]

Hopefully --- never.

(And to head off the "Circling approach" case -- you're not flying that IMC -- you should have visual reference to the runway and environment)

Depends on how you define IMC...you're not flying by reference to instruments, but if the conditions are below VMC, then you can argue that you're flying IMC.

 

[Matthew]

OP here - Let me jump back in for a minute. Regarding VOR - yes, I did get proficient in that during training. I still use it, even though the magenta line is in the plane I rent. I don't use VORs to the fullest capability, because I haven't really needed to, but I try to use it (and FF), everytime I go out on an XC.

One of my favorite lessons from my PP training was at night, under the hood, no moon, partial panel, doing unusual attitude recoveries. I did about 6, then my CFI uncovered all the instruments (except the GPS), and told me to use only the resources in the airplane to find out where we were, where the nearest airport was, and take us there. I was still under the hood, trying to fumble around with pencils, charts, triangulating VORs, and maintaining a level attitude, altitude, and heading. I got us to where I thought the airport was and turned on the lights. My CFI then let me take off the hood and see how close I got. I was directly overhead. That was the coolest thing - I finally decided that I might just be able to pass that checkride after all.

I like Ron's advice, and others, and I hope I'm not putting words in their mouths - learn how to control the airplane so you can free up some brain processing capacity to do the rest of the tasks that your CFII will teach you.

 

[JeffDG]

One other option, if your plane has an IFR GPS, is to fly GPS direct, but with the CDI as your navigation source, not the "magenta line" on the GPS screen. So you get to fly direct, but you're essentially practicing flying the same way as VOR (and yes, I know the GPS CDI is linear, not angular, but if you keep the needle in the middle it's the same!)

 

[poadeleted20]

Would a DE see it this way during the PP checkride too,

No.

or is this more for additional aircraft mastery prior to embarking on instrument work?

Yes.

 

[poadeleted20]

But a competent VFR pilot with mastery over his/her airplane certainly makes a better IR candidate.

Exactly my point -- and VOR tracking isn't part of "mastery over his/her airplane."

 

[poadeleted20]

My CFI expects me to do steep turns with a little blip of trim (and a little bump in power) once the bank angle passes 30 degrees.

Did your CFI ever tell you why s/he wants you to use trim?

Yes, you're trying to keep the nose on the horizon in a turn, and yes, normal turns don't need it

Yes, they do, just not as much, and one of the problems I see routinely in IR training is failing to keep the nose up in standard rate turns. If the trainee has already developed the habit of holding the nose up in turns prior to IR training, I don't have to spend time teaching that during IR training.

How often do you do it IFR, especially?

For one thing, it develops a feel for a certain amount of pull, and the pull in a 45-bank steep turn is just right for a nose-low unusual attitude recovery. For another, there's that circling maneuver Dan mentioned, and that's where folks drop the nose and lose altitude all the time -- in a situation where there's virtually no margin for error. If you haven't developed the habit/feel, you're going to lose altitude in that situation, and while you may not be in the clouds, you have no usuable visual horizon in low-vis circling approaches.

 

[dmccormack]

Exactly my point -- and VOR tracking isn't part of "mastery over his/her airplane."

Sure it is -- follow a line from point A to point B in the most efficient manner possible is mastering the airplane's ability to compress time over a distance.

If you're wandering all over a VOR route, how do you predict time/ fuel flow? Without a GPS, how do you know where you are? (Private pilots can fly above layers, with no reference to the ground).

 

[poadeleted20]

Sure it is -- follow a line from point A to point B in the most efficient manner possible is mastering the airplane's ability to compress time over a distance.

You miss my point entirely. I'm talking about the ability to maneuver the airplane to where they want it, not interpreting radio navigation instruments. I'll teach them that part during IR training, but I don't have time to teach them how to control the plane.

 

[dmccormack]

You miss my point entirely. I'm talking about the ability to maneuver the airplane to where they want it, not interpreting radio navigation instruments. I'll teach them that part during IR training, but I don't have time to teach them how to control the plane.

OK.. I'm confused, then.

The OP asked what he could do now to prepare for the IR.

Several folks (me included) mentioned some ways he could futher develop his basic proficiency in the air which would help him prior to IR training.

The Private Pilot PTS includes this task:

F. TASK: RADIO COMMUNICATIONS, NAVIGATION SYSTEMS/FACILITIES, AND RADAR SERVICES​

(ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES:​

​

FAA-H-8083-3, FAA-H-8083-15, AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25.​

Objective.​

​

​

To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to radio communications, navigation systems/facilities, and radar services available for use during flight solely by reference to instruments.
2. Selects the proper frequency and identifies the appropriate facility.
3. Follows verbal instructions and/or navigation systems/facilities for guidance.
4. Determines the minimum safe altitude.
5. Maintains altitude, ±200 feet (60 meters); maintains heading, ±20°; maintains airspeed, ±10 knots.​

Thus, a Private Pilot should be able to use Radio navigation. Maintaining or even increasing proficiency after the PP exam can only help.

Of course the ideal situation would be "Get into an IFR Training progarm ASAP!"

But not everyone has that immediate luxury. So until you have the time/funds/airplane, you fly and gain mastery of your airplane -- and all its systems.

If you don't know how the GPS works, you get training and you learn how to employ that system.

You don't need an IR or even an IFR curriculum to be learning and increasing proficiency and competency.

 

[poadeleted20]

The OP asked what he could do now to prepare for the IR.

No, he asked about how to prepare for IR training. I'll prepare him for the IR after he starts that training, and my suggestions are based on my last three years doing almost nothing but giving IR training.

 

[jmaynard]

Did your CFI ever tell you why s/he wants you to use trim?

The same reason as always: to lessen control forces and fly more precisely.

Yes, you're trying to keep the nose on the horizon in a turn, and yes, normal turns don't need it

Yes, they do, just not as much, and one of the problems I see routinely in IR training is failing to keep the nose up in standard rate turns.

I was imprecise: the "it" I mentioned was trim, not keeping the nose up (which I agree is important).

I will add, in reply to your argument about mastery of the airplane, that a true master of the airplane will use all of the resources he has available to help him fly precisely, including the trim wheel.

 

[dmccormack]

No, he asked about how to prepare for IR training. I'll prepare him for the IR after he starts that training, and my suggestions are based on my last three years doing almost nothing but giving IR training.

OK.. IR training.

So, should he not track VORs as a VFR pilot until he begins IFR training?

 

[poadeleted20]

OK.. IR training.

So, should he not track VORs as a VFR pilot until he begins IFR training?

He asked what will help prepare for IR training. I answered. Practicing VOR tracking is not a priority -- we'll cover that amply in the IR training. Improving aircraft control is -- that's something which shouldn't have to be part of the IR training, and only diverts resources from the IR training.

 

[poadeleted20]

I will add, in reply to your argument about mastery of the airplane, that a true master of the airplane will use all of the resources he has available to help him fly precisely, including the trim wheel.

You don't have the time or hands free when flying instruments to be messing with the trim wheel in turns, and you really don't have that in an unusual attitude recovery. Hence, to be prepared for instrument training, it's important that you can put the nose where it belongs and keep it there while maneuvering without playing with trim. Give a thousand hours or so of IR training, and you'll agree about the importance of that.

 

[CJones]

learn how to control the airplane so you can free up some brain processing capacity to do the rest of the tasks that your CFII will teach you.

You got it spot-on.

 

[dmccormack]

He asked what will help prepare for IR training. I answered. Practicing VOR tracking is not a priority -- we'll cover that amply in the IR training. Improving aircraft control is -- that's something which shouldn't have to be part of the IR training, and only diverts resources from the IR training.

Actually, I answered first. Your reply began (and thus directly contradicted my first bullet)

"I wouldn't even think about instrument flying, including VOR tracking or anything else. Your instrument instructor will teach you that properly when you start training, so don't build any bad habits."

My contention is that VOR tracking is a Private Pilot Task, and if he learned any bad habits with the VOR, it was during primary training.

Any pilot who is not immediately entering IFR training can only help him/herself by becoming proficient in all systems used during VFR flight -- and this includes the VOR (if so equipped).

Or is there a bad habit that you consistently see with PP who have used VORs for XC flying?

 

[poadeleted20]

I've lost track, Dan -- I thought we were talking about preparing to start IR training, not working on PP PTS skills.

Anyway, regarding preparing for IR training, if s/he has poor VOR tracking skills, the last thing I want is for the person to exercise those bad habits and make it harder for me to fix during IR training. If s/he already has those skills down pat, they're going to get exercised thoroughly during IR training, and my experience as an instrument instructor tells me that s/he'll help him/herself more for the IR training by working on basic aircraft control so we can focus on IR training during IR training and not have to deviate from that program to work on being able to put the plane where s/he wants it.

Finally, yes, there are many bad VOR orientation/interception/tracking habits I've seen with folks starting IR training, ranging from fundamental misunderstandings about what the instrument is telling them to undamped oscilliatory tracking techniques ("needle-chasing").

 

[dmccormack]

I've lost track, Dan -- I thought we were talking about preparing to start IR training, not working on PP PTS skills.

I think we're in violent agreement -- VFR pilot proficiency and mastery of the aircraft will result in a more productive, shorter, and easier trip through the IFR curriculum and examinations.

At least it was for me.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think we're in violent agreement -- VFR pilot proficiency and mastery of the aircraft will result in a more productive, shorter, and easier trip through the IFR curriculum and examinations.

I agree. So in preparation for training, let them focus on those basic aircraft control skills and leave the radio navigation work to me.

 

[Matthew]

I guess I'll clarify - I did ask specifically how to prepare for training. When I do officially 'start' my IR training I want to be able to hit the ground running (so to speak).

I sense from Ron's response that his experience shows that his students that progress more quickly are the ones who can point the nose where it needs to be and keep it there. With that as a starting point, he can work out the rest.

Other opinions are that knowledge of the equipment is a good starting point.

Since I can't start IR training anytime in the near future, I have the opportunity to do my fun flights and to try to push myself to a higher standard than what the PP-PTS requires. I was trying to get some opinions on how to prioritize those higher standards so I could work them into my normal flying. Typically, I mix up local fun flights with friends, some XCs, and other flights where I do airwork. I know the best thing to do, for me, is to simply go out with a CFI on occassion for a skills assessment. I want to be safe (I think I am), and proficient (I really try to be), but I also want to feel like I am progressing as a pilot.

Thanks for the suggestions - I know there are differences of opinion among the pros, but they are all good for me to think about.

Matt

 

[RMCN172RG]

I guess I'll clarify - I did ask specifically how to prepare for training. When I do officially 'start' my IR training I want to be able to hit the ground running (so to speak).
Matt

I would suggest fly often to stay proficient and hold yourself to the tighter altitude and heading requirements of the IR practical test.

Having those mastered when you start the IR will give you a leg up without a lot to unlearn and relearn the way your CFII wants you to do things.

 

[dmccormack]

I guess I'll clarify - I did ask specifically how to prepare for training. When I do officially 'start' my IR training I want to be able to hit the ground running (so to speak).

I sense from Ron's response that his experience shows that his students that progress more quickly are the ones who can point the nose where it needs to be and keep it there. With that as a starting point, he can work out the rest.

Other opinions are that knowledge of the equipment is a good starting point.

Since I can't start IR training anytime in the near future, I have the opportunity to do my fun flights and to try to push myself to a higher standard than what the PP-PTS requires. I was trying to get some opinions on how to prioritize those higher standards so I could work them into my normal flying. Typically, I mix up local fun flights with friends, some XCs, and other flights where I do airwork. I know the best thing to do, for me, is to simply go out with a CFI on occassion for a skills assessment. I want to be safe (I think I am), and proficient (I really try to be), but I also want to feel like I am progressing as a pilot.

Thanks for the suggestions - I know there are differences of opinion among the pros, but they are all good for me to think about.

Matt

The vast majority of instrument pilots do not learn through intense IR programs such as Ron teaches.

I think a more typical experience is the VFR pilot who has canceled one too many flights and decides its time to "get that instrument rating."

But his budget or commitment aren't quite total, so he works through over time through fits and starts.

No wonder folks get messed up. You don't learn to swim using that method, how do you expect to learn to fly IFR?

While any instructor would prefer a tabula rasa, the reality is there's a fair amount of un-teaching that has to be done with more experienced pilots who've absorbed lots of Old Wive's Tales.

But I think we're all in agreement that knowing the airplane and its systems and how to make it do what you want it to do will put you in good stead when you finally begin IR training.