IP's - PLEASE pay attention to your location when making radio calls!

k9medic said:
I'm far from skyking (but I was in a twin cessna) but we owe it to the baby aviators and professionals alike that are out there to at least know where in the heck we are in the airspace!
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Not too worry. I know you did everything right and they were wrong. How do I know? Because you were flying a 310.

Fracpilot,
A fellow 310 owner


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Fracpilot said:
Not too worry. I know you did everything right and they were wrong. How do I know? Because you were flying a 310.

Fracpilot,
A fellow 310 owner


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Now if I was flying a Cirrus or a Beech I would agree with that.


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sarangan said:
Your assessment sounds correct - they probably were looking at the distance to their next waypoint rather than the airport. In such cases, if time permit, there is nothing wrong with saying "Aztec on final, my ADSB is showing you on a 11 mile final. I just want to double check", or something like that. People make mistakes. Unless there was an egregious violation, there is no need to make an issue out of it.
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Um, someone close to me (me) did that as a beginning IP. What I do now is set the Garmin 750 to show distance and bearing to the airport and I read that off now. I also make sure I announce as a practice approach and people are very gracious. (I'll also break off if things are too busy)
 
Palmpilot said:
What's an "IP"?
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Initial point. It’s the location on a bombing run where the aircraft begins its straight and level run to the target so that the bombardier can can get accurate data for the bomb sight.
 
Someone calls a 7 mile final, or 10 mile final or whatever final that is going to take several minutes for you to get to short final. Now that you have called a final, I believe per the FAR's that the runway is yours and I cannot take off. It has happened to me more than once, some guy calls an 8 mile final just as I am pulling up to the runway. I sit and wait, and wait and wait, thinking "how slow can this guy go, he's in a Cirrus". About the time I expected him to land, I hear a Cirrus 123WTF 3 mile final. I could have taken off and been a few miles from the runway before he was on short final.

Or the guy that calls "over midfield joining left downwind 32", but I look up and there are NO airplanes anywhere in sight. Or better yet, watching the only guy in the pattern on left downwind call RIGHT downwind. There isn't even a right downwind at this airport, due to the mountain where the pattern would be.

I realized a while back to take every radio call with a grain of salt, and compare to what I see, and to what I have heard for the last 5 minutes. We've all done it, some just more than others.
 
Wagondriver said:
Now that you have called a final, I believe per the FAR's that the runway is yours and I cannot take off.
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You might read the relevant reg to correct your misunderstanding.
Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface,
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Wagondriver said:
Now that you have called a final, I believe per the FAR's that the runway is yours and I cannot take off.
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As MaulSkinner pointed out, the FARs don't actually say that. In order to violate their right-of-way you would have to do something that interfered with the aircraft on final, which will not be the case if you make sure that you're off the runway well before they get there.

Also, right-of-way is not determined by what people say on the radio. An aircraft that doesn't have a radio has just as much right-of-way as one that does.
 
PaulS said:
Fortunately I haven't run into any of this territorial crap about rules and patterns while flying. When there is a potential conflict in the pattern, everyone involved tries to figure it out and work together as it should be.
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My field is busy with students and transients ... there's a local Class C pilot that comes to our field and announces a 10 mile straight in final causing 4-5 aircraft in the pattern to bail out, he fights back that he has right of way on the straight in ... some of the locals and CFIs have paid him a visit (no beatings occurred).

Wagondriver said:
It has happened to me more than once, some guy calls an 8 mile final just as I am pulling up to the runway. I sit and wait, and wait and wait....
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You already saw the messages regarding the FARs and right of way. Go out to your field and TIME aircraft from their base turn to when they cross the threshold. Most paterns (if not power off 180's) take 90-120 seconds from the base turn (WAY more if 747 style pattern). I pay attention to N numbers and will negotiate an expedited take off if I can talk to them AND be rolling before they are past their mid base leg ... I'm LONG gone before they're near the numbers. You'd never depart our pilot controlled field (due to traffic density) if you didn't operate this way ....
 
danhagan said:
My field is busy with students and transients ... there's a local Class C pilot that comes to our field and announces a 10 mile straight in final causing 4-5 aircraft in the pattern to bail out, he fights back that he has right of way on the straight in ... some of the locals and CFIs have paid him a visit (no beatings occurred).
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If I'm on a straight in, make the call from 10 miles out, and find out there are 4 aircraft in the pattern, I'll tell them I'm breaking off, and maneuver for a standard entry. Generally I'll probably do that anyway before the call because I can see most aircraft on ADSB, but if they are all no transponder aircraft, I'll break off, it just costs me a few minutes flying time. A lot of this stuff is just basic courtesy. That guy is a dick, but probably doesn't know how to maneuver and fly a basic pattern.
 
danhagan said:
My field is busy with students and transients ... there's a local Class C pilot that comes to our field and announces a 10 mile straight in final causing 4-5 aircraft in the pattern to bail out, he fights back that he has right of way on the straight in ... some of the locals and CFIs have paid him a visit (no beatings occurred).
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It should be easy to modify the downwind leg and go behind or in front of the 10-mile final guy. There is no need to bail out of the traffic pattern enitrely. Any time an airplane in the traffic pattern modifies their pattern to allow me to fly a long aproach, I make sure to thank them for their understanding. A little bit of courtesy goes a long way.
 
You already saw the messages regarding the FARs and right of way. Go out to your field and TIME aircraft from their base turn to when they cross the threshold. Most paterns (if not power off 180's) take 90-120 seconds from the base turn (WAY more if 747 style pattern). I pay attention to N numbers and will negotiate an expedited take off if I can talk to them AND be rolling before they are past their mid base leg ... I'm LONG gone before they're near the numbers. You'd never depart our pilot controlled field (due to traffic density) if you didn't operate this way ....[/QUOTE]

There is a difference between a radio call "8 miles south, straight in 32", and "8 mile final 32". I expect a cirrus to be doing about 100mph short final, probably 120mph 8 miles out. That should equate to about about 4 minutes to short final. The recent instance where this occurred was easily 10 minutes from calling 8 miles to calling 3 miles. IF, the cirrus had called "Cirrus 123WTF 10 miles south straight in 32", I would have taken off. But, when he calls final, it takes a different meaning.
The same happens when on downwind, I might be mid field, I do almost all power off landings, it takes very little time to get down on the ground and be off the runway, hell, I don't even land on the runway anyway, but some guy calls a 5 mile final. Is he REALLY 5 miles, how fast is he? I can't see him, but wouldn't I be the DICK if I land in front of him and I'm not off the runway when he comes screaming in landing at midfield?

Perhaps I am wrong. But, if some guy calls an 8 mile final, in a plane that does short final at nearly 100, it is my understanding that he has the right of way. Maybe I can take off, and be out of the way, but perhaps his estimate of his distance from the threshold is in error the other way and he is actually only 6 miles out, and going 120. It doesn't take long for me to take the runway, get lined up and push the throttle, and be airborne with a 700' roll, but I still have to accelerate to a safe speed, and get off of runway centerline, can I do that in under 3 minutes? Yes, but the guy landing is going to be quite unhappy with me.
 
sarangan said:
It should be easy to modify the downwind leg and go behind or in front of the 10-mile final guy. There is no need to bail out of the traffic pattern enitrely. Any time an airplane in the traffic pattern modifies their pattern to allow me to fly a long aproach, I make sure to thank them for their understanding. A little bit of courtesy goes a long way.
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Our pattern operators are usually solo students and are still learning how to "anticipate" the straight ins ... they're learning to adjust for falcons and citations, but don't have all aircraft types figured out ....

Wagondriver said:
There is a difference between a radio call "8 miles south, straight in 32", and "8 mile final 32". I expect a cirrus to be doing about 100mph short final, probably 120mph 8 miles out.
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Both of your examples are heading 360 and only turn 40 degrees to line up on runway 32, probably entering on a base leg anyway. If you're ready to go and don't lolly gag, even departing ahead of the kerosene burners works. I get "can you accept an expedited departure" from both El Paso Class C (KELP) and Austin Exec Class D (KEDC) all the time and can SEE their landing lights 3-4 miles out and am long gone on those as well - you have to REALLY be ready to roll. Austin Exec turns me INSIDE of citations all the time, no issues ... and I've provided short final wind shear alerts to them kerosene burners that they REALLY appreciated ...
 
Apparently, I omitted from my earlier post, at my airport you are taking off INTO landing traffic. Land 32 take off 14. 5 miles is used up pretty fast when the closure rate is 180mph, for relatively slow planes.
This is NOT an airport with standard traffic patterns.

No one is entering on a base leg, unless you like to descend at well over 1000fpm on base or final, or have a prop that will tunnel through rock. With a towered airport, the tower can see the closure rate and actual distance from the runway. The whole point of this thread was KNOW your position relative to the runway.

This discussion has nothing to do with towered airports. I get turned in front of fast traffic often too, when tower can see them, and often I can too. But, we are not talking about that. We are talking about someone calling 8 miles out that is actually much further and therefore not a factor. But, from their communication, or lack thereof, we don't know their real position. And then we sit there waiting for someone who can't communicate their ACTUAL position.
 
Last weekend I was on downwind when a Rockwell Commander called a 5 mile final on the RNAV approach (kudos to him for including the distance). I fly a pretty tight pattern, so I went ahead and turned base and landed in front of him. The 172 on downwind behind me did the same, and was off the runway before the Rockwell called short final. No problem.
 
Wagondriver said:
There is a difference between a radio call "8 miles south, straight in 32", and "8 mile final 32".
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Who has the right-of-way is not determined by what people say on the radio. A person on an eight-mile straight-in is on final, whether he says it on the radio or not. From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

FINAL− Commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach course or is aligned with a landing area.​

No mention of radio calls there.

The other pilot's right-of-way prohibits you from taking actions that could create a conflict. Since you mentioned that your takeoff would be head-to-head with him, I can see how taking off could cause a problem.
 
Cessna 172 on short final, 250knots, landing.
 
I had a twin cessna come over the top of me when I was on a long straight in final. I called 10 mile final, he said he was 5 miles from whatever fix, I said “I don’t have an instrument rating and don’t know what that means, how far from the airport are you?” He replied with a distance from a fix again, and just about when he was finishing his second useless traffic call he flew directly over the top of me by less than a hundred feet. The twin had an instructor and commercial pilot student on board, I was a student pilot. I was pretty aghast that something like that could happen with two what I thought were super amazingly experienced pilots.

It still irks me to this day when I hear people making calls using fixes on an approach. Not everyone has an approach plate pulled up, nor do they know what ****in’ obscure ass approach fix you’re talking about unless they’re practicing that same obscure ass approach on a blue bird day.

It looked pretty much exactly like this:
 
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