ipad use and flying

izzydogg

izzydogg

Pre-Flight
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izzydogg
I'm wondering who is using the ipad/foreflight for flight planning and situational awareness during VFR and IFR flights. I'm working on my instrument rating and it looks like a great tool. The Geo-reference application looks like it would be awesome as a "where the heck are we" tool. I hear the ipad3 comes out on March 7th.
What say You!?!?
Iz
 
izzydogg said:
I'm wondering who is using the ipad/foreflight for flight planning and situational awareness during VFR and IFR flights. I'm working on my instrument rating and it looks like a great tool. The Geo-reference application looks like it would be awesome as a "where the heck are we" tool. I hear the ipad3 comes out on March 7th.
What say You!?!?
Iz
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Did you do a search on here for foreflight threads? I know this has been discussed a lot since many POA people use the tool. I have an iPad and the $150 / year subscription to Foreflight and have not yet "used it for real" though it is turned on in flight since all my flights lately have been local / tours and I keep my eyes outside the cockpit for that kind of stuff.
 
I do, and I agree. Just remember that the examiner is within the his/her authority to have you turn off the GPS in your iPad to simulate GPS system failure and have you fly the approaches off your VOR's alone without that little blue airplane cruising around the approach chart. So make sure you can stumble your way through an approach without that feature.

As for the iPad3, I didn't even go to the iPad2 when it came out. My iPad1 is doing just fine with Foreflight for all my aviation needs (and a lot of other things, too). Unless money is not an issue for you, given the deals you can get on "obsolete" iPads, I'd suggest getting one of them and using the money you save for another hour or two of instrument training instead.
 
I use it mainly for flight planning, but I do keep it in the cockpit for backup and quick reference for freqs and stuff.
 
Ron Levy said:
I do, and I agree. Just remember that the examiner is within the his/her authority to have you turn off the GPS in your iPad to simulate GPS system failure and have you fly the approaches off your VOR's alone without that little blue airplane cruising around the approach chart. So make sure you can stumble your way through an approach without that feature.

As for the iPad3, I didn't even go to the iPad2 when it came out. My iPad1 is doing just fine with Foreflight for all my aviation needs (and a lot of other things, too). Unless money is not an issue for you, given the deals you can get on "obsolete" iPads, I'd suggest getting one of them and using the money you save for another hour or two of instrument training instead.
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Yes, my boyfriend surprised me with a used iPad 1 version and it (so far) is working great.
 
I've been using FF on an iPad 1 for about a year now. Paper is pretty much gone from my cockpit.

On the generation issue, I have noticed FF running slower than it used to on my iPad 1. That's to be expected. In, I think it was 1994 or 1995, I heard Bill Gates speak. One of the things he said was, "It's our job as software developers to make your fast computers seem slow."

It was tongue-in-cheek but true. As the next faster computer/smartphone/tablet comes along, the apps are developed to take advantage of them; that automatically means that they will run slower on older systems. It seems to have leveled of a bit on PCs but it's definitely still true in the tablet and smartphone world.

If the iPad 3 is indeed coming out next month, it will invariably get worse. While I think (hope) that an iPad 1 will still do the job (FF is still only an enhanced chart, right?), even if cost is a factor, I'd at least be looking for a used or refurbished iPad 2 and forget about the 1.
 
I use my iPad2 just for fun at my current job. We aren't approved to use it for navigation or anything like that. But when I get stuck in a non-GPS airplane(which happens every once in a while) I will pull Foreflight up just for fun. I don't use, and absolutely HATE government approach plates so I could care less about that. Our company is currently looking at letting use use iPads for Jepp plates which I can't wait for! I have the WIFI version with a Bad Elf external GPS and it works fantastically.
 
I use an iPad1 for foreflight for vfr/ifr.

I dont pay the extra $75 for georeferenced stuff.
 
I use the iPad for all of my flight instructing and other flights. FF is the best and I have the full geo-referencing subscription. It's great for busy airports with students, I can take a snapshot of our location on the ground when things get hectic, and we can debrief it later. The external GPS is great also. I've got PDF Expert for storing most of my documents, advisory circulars, handouts, and other data. Lots of great apps for basic and advanced training. Makes for some real productive ground training, as I can quickly show videos and animations.
Two of the examiners I use allow the students to use their iPads, but they had better be ready to demonstrate mastery of all of the traditional tools and equipment in a second. Scott
 
iPad for everything here with Foreflight. Yup.

As Forrest Gump would say, "That's all I've got to say about that."
 
Well, I went out and purchased an ipad2 this afternoon. I think mine is wifi only although I will be updating my Verizon account tomorrow to have 4G hot spot access on my cell phone. Looking at the FF website it states that you need 3G to access Geo-referencing. I also read that it can be operated through Bad Elf. Reading further I see that the moving map still works with the basic plan. So it makes me wonder if the Pro Plan is worth the extra dough since it just shows where you are at on the approach plates and taxi diagrams. I'm hoping to get some more thoughts from the ranks.
Thanks,
Iz
 
I'm working on instrumental rating too. I use iPad2 with WingX for charts and approach plates. It is really handy to be able to pull out approach plate in a metter of seconds when I need it. Weather briefing, flight planning, etc. My CFII don't mind me using iPad for situational awareness but all navigation is done using VORs or GTN 650.
 
For training, most CFIIs will have you turn off the geo-referencing. Later, it's probably going to be very nice to have. Just more data, which is always a good thing. Save the money if you're training. Some DEs will allow it on checkrides, I hear... but don't count on it.
 
izzydogg said:
Well, I went out and purchased an ipad2 this afternoon. I think mine is wifi only although I will be updating my Verizon account tomorrow to have 4G hot spot access on my cell phone. Looking at the FF website it states that you need 3G to access Geo-referencing. I also read that it can be operated through Bad Elf. Reading further I see that the moving map still works with the basic plan. So it makes me wonder if the Pro Plan is worth the extra dough since it just shows where you are at on the approach plates and taxi diagrams. I'm hoping to get some more thoughts from the ranks.
Thanks,
Iz
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See if you can take it back and exchange it for a 3G model with built-in GPS. It will be a lot more convenient if you don't have to carry around a second box.
 
denverpilot said:
For training, most CFIIs will have you turn off the geo-referencing. Later, it's probably going to be very nice to have. Just more data, which is always a good thing. Save the money if you're training. Some DEs will allow it on checkrides, I hear... but don't count on it.
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I have them turn it off until they show me they can maintain situational awareness based on the aircraft instruments alone. Then they get it back. As for examiners, it varies. Some don't allow it, some do what I do, and some let you use it for the whole ride. Most seem to encourage its use during degraded states flying, like partial panel.
 
I have the I-Pad 1 with the bluetooth GPS unit. It works great. It comes with a nice rubber holder that you just lay on top of the instrument panel, and it won't slide at all. I bought a dual USB outlet cigar lighter unit so I can charge both the GPS and the Ipad at the same time if I need to, although I try to make sure they are both charged before I go. I'd rather have the seperate GPS unit than spend the extra money for the 3G capability and plan.
 
PPC1052 said:
I'd rather have the seperate GPS unit than spend the extra money for the 3G capability and plan.
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You don't need the cellular plan to use the GPS that comes in the 3g version, and the difference in price between 3g and non-3g is about the same as the off-board GPS. I fly a lot of different airplanes, and I just don't want to carry another box around. Perhaps if I only flew one plane and nobody else flew it, I might be happy with an external box I could just leave there.
 
PPC1052 said:
I have the I-Pad 1 with the bluetooth GPS unit. It works great. It comes with a nice rubber holder that you just lay on top of the instrument panel, and it won't slide at all. I bought a dual USB outlet cigar lighter unit so I can charge both the GPS and the Ipad at the same time if I need to, although I try to make sure they are both charged before I go. I'd rather have the seperate GPS unit than spend the extra money for the 3G capability and plan.
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This is why you probably should have chosen Android and Naviator instead. GPS is included in the wifi-only models.
 
Ron Levy said:
See if you can take it back and exchange it for a 3G model with built-in GPS. It will be a lot more convenient if you don't have to carry around a second box.
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After a year of doing it, it's no big deal. Never has been. A complete non-issue.

YRMV. Different strokes and all that.
 
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My understanding from talking to a number of DPEs in the Chicago area is that they will generally allow you to use it during the checkride, but you had best be prepared to pull out a backup (read: paper) when it mysteriously "freezes" during the flight. They didn't address whether you could have georeferenced plates enabled.

I find it quite helpful in the cockpit. Like Ron, I like the 3G model so I don't have to worry about having another item to break off or lose (Bad Elf) or forget to charge (Dual). As others have said, you do not need to turn on any 3G data.
 
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gprellwitz said:
My understanding from talking to a number of DPEs in the Chicago area is that they will generally allow you to use it during the checkride, but you had best be prepared to pull out a backup (read: paper) when it mysteriously "freezes" during the flight. They didn't address whether you could have georeferenced plates enabled.

I find it quite helpful in the cockpit. Like Ron, I like the 3G model so I don't have to worry about having another item to break off or lose (Bad Elf) or forget to charge (Dual). As others have said, you do not need to turn on any 3G data.
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Can your backup be your iPhone that also has the same functionality?
 
gprellwitz said:
My understanding from talking to a number of DPEs in the Chicago area is that they will generally allow you to use it during the checkride, but you had best be prepared to pull out a backup (read: paper) when it mysteriously "freezes" during the flight.
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On what basis? I've never seen them pretend your paper charts just blew out the window/door, and I've lost more charts out the window/door than I have had electronic chart systems failures.
 
SkyHog said:
Can your backup be your iPhone that also has the same functionality?
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Absolutely. I know one examiner who killed the DME on a partial panel VOR/DME approach (no installed GPS), and was pleased that the applicant continued using the geo-referenced iPad to identify the DME fix -- said it was a good decision in an emergency situation (missed approach and divert being highly undesireable after the vacuum pump quits).
 
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SkyHog said:
Can your backup be your iPhone that also has the same functionality?
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The DPE who was asked that question during a Foreflight seminar said that no, he wanted to see a paper backup for the checkride.
 
Ron Levy said:
On what basis? I've never seen them pretend your paper charts just blew out the window/door, and I've lost more charts out the window/door than I have had electronic chart systems failures.
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The case where the statement was made during a seminar. I believe that his support was the recommendation from AC 91-78(6)c:
It is suggested that a secondary or back up source of aeronautical information necessary for the flight be available to the pilot in the aircraft. The secondary or backup information may be either traditional paper-based material or displayed electronically
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and I realize that the "displayed electronically" contradicts his assertion that I quoted in my reply to Nick.
 
gprellwitz said:
The DPE who was asked that question during a Foreflight seminar said that no, he wanted to see a paper backup for the checkride.
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He can say it, but he can't make it stick any more than throwing the applicant's charts out the window. Nothing in the regs, PTS, or Examiner's Handbook supports his statement. I'd let the FSDO know about this and allow them to take care of the problem. And the recommendation in that AC does not give him the authority to require paper backups. If he turns off the iPad (or pretends to throw your paper charts out the window), you just tell him you'll get the controller to read you the chart -- which is what they've done for years when an emergent situation (e.g., unplanned/unforecast weather divert outside the geographical limits of your approach book) requires it.
 
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Ron Levy said:
On what basis? I've never seen them pretend your paper charts just blew out the window/door, and I've lost more charts out the window/door than I have had electronic chart systems failures.
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Yeah, but who can account for what an individual DPE might do. I don't see anything in the PTS that says anything one way or the other and keep in mind that the PTS has things that may not be required in the real world, such as the requirement that
==============================
GPS equipment must be instrument flight rules (IFR) certified and contain the current database.
==============================

I doubt that paying the cost for a couple of charts in the context of the overall cost of a checkride is worth going to the FSDO about.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Yeah, but who can account for what an individual DPE might do.
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There are certainly maverick DPE's out there, but one hopes their victims (or their victims' instructors) will get the FSDO to fix the problem.

I don't see anything in the PTS that says anything one way or the other
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Correct -- nothing there about taking away the applicant's charts. That makes doing so outside the rules, and as long as the applicant has a way of handling the situation (e.g., having the controller read the chart to him/her) the applicant's performance is satisfactory.

and keep in mind that the PTS has things that may not be required in the real world, such as the requirement that
==============================
GPS equipment must be instrument flight rules (IFR) certified and contain the current database.
==============================
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That's part of the definition of an acceptable aircraft. It doesn't change things as far as what constitutes satisfactory performance.

I doubt that paying the cost for a couple of charts in the context of the overall cost of a checkride is worth going to the FSDO about.
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I guess I just don't like DPE's making up their own unapproved rules, and I really don't like the idea of trying to decide just how much cost to the applicant is acceptable before a DPE is stopped from that behavior. At least when Annabel Fera doesn't like your vision restricting device (and the Examiner's Handbook does give them discretion on that), she provides her own hood rather than making you go buy another. So I guess if the examiner hands you his own paper chart, I'd be OK with that.
 
Thanks for all the input, I really appreciate the help! I have mobile hot spot on my cell phone and can get the wireless connection through the cell phone. I'm going for a ride in the car to see if this works. My only concern is how long my cell phone battery will last. I may have to plug it in on long flights. I have unlimited data so that's not a concern. I'll check back and let you know how it went.
 
Ok, I took Ron's advise and exchanged my ipad for one with 3g. Thanks Ron! Dad and I are flying to Sterling to pick up some summer sausage on the 23rd, weather permitting, soo I'll let everyone know how it works after the flight. Thanks for all the comments!
Iz
 
izzydogg said:
Ok, I took Ron's advise and exchanged my ipad for one with 3g. Thanks Ron! Dad and I are flying to Sterling to pick up some summer sausage on the 23rd, weather permitting, soo I'll let everyone know how it works after the flight. Thanks for all the comments!
Iz
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Great use of avgas :)
 
Yea, Mike's Meats in Sterling, CO is awesome! Plus the courtesey car is an old cop car, it's hilarious.
 
The 'extra box' Ron refers to, in the case of a Bad Elf external GPS, happens to be about a 1 inch square by 1/4 inch thick unit that plugs directly into the pin port on the iPad, and you can power the whole thing through the Bad Elf with an adapter for your cigarette lighter.

Been using the setup for a year on my "old" iPad1, and frankly, not a burden.....but YMMV.
 
DutchessFlier said:
The 'extra box' Ron refers to, in the case of a Bad Elf external GPS, happens to be about a 1 inch square by 1/4 inch thick unit that plugs directly into the pin port on the iPad, and you can power the whole thing through the Bad Elf with an adapter for your cigarette lighter.

Been using the setup for a year on my "old" iPad1, and frankly, not a burden.....but YMMV.
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The other "extra box" is one of the two (more if you're jailbroken) bluetooth GPS units (about the same size as the Bad Elf) that have the burden of recharging them the same time as you recharge the iPad as part of your normal iPad preflight routine (you do have an iPad preflight routine, don't you? :idea: )
 
I am using an I-Pad 1 and it does the job. My biggest gripe about it is the glare of the screen in very sunny bright conditions. I can't see the darn thing!

Air Nav Pro is another program I use and they have greatly improved the menu organization latley, plus you can view full screen maps at the touch of a button.

I'm really glad the FAA lets us use them instead of paper. Paper maps are a pain!
 
...and speaking of the cost of these apps, those of you with iPads might want to look at SkyCharts.

"For just $19.95, you get access to the full US database of charts and procedures, in 9 geographic regions, each of which requires less than 1GB of memory to store, updated periodically, for a full year. Annual renewals are just $19.95."
http://www.skycharts.net/?page_id=861


Lots of choices out there...


Jack
 
Big Mustache said:
I am using an I-Pad 1 and it does the job. My biggest gripe about it is the glare of the screen in very sunny bright conditions. I can't see the darn thing!

Air Nav Pro is another program I use and they have greatly improved the menu organization latley, plus you can view full screen maps at the touch of a button.

I'm really glad the FAA lets us use them instead of paper. Paper maps are a pain!
Click to expand...


Zagg makes an anti glare screen protector that works nicely.
 
cavmedic said:
Zagg makes an anti glare screen protector that works nicely.
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If they would just make a matte finish for the screen there wouldn't be that problem. I have never liked glossy screens and always opt for the matte if they have one. Every computer I have ever bought has a matte screen on it. I have a Macbook Pro and it has a matte screen, so Apple does make them, even though Apple doesn't offer it on the iPad. They now call it 'anti-glare' and charge extra for it I think, when it didn't use to cost anything.
 
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