iPad + Foreflight?

CC268

CC268

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CC268
MOD can delete this thread, thanks!
 
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It's a fine planning tool, provided you understand its limitations.

It's totally useless for a student pilot, and can be a source of distractions.
 
MAKG1 said:
It's a fine planning tool, provided you understand its limitations.

It's totally useless for a student pilot, and can be a source of distractions.
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...hence why I stated that it would be of interest after getting the PPL
 
CC268 said:
...hence why I stated that it would be of interest after getting the PPL
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If that's really your entire question, ask it when you've at least done some check ride prep. The answers will mean slightly more than nothing at that time. Right now, they mean exactly nothing.
 
CC268 said:
...hence why I stated that it would be of interest after getting the PPL
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Get your PPL and download Foreflight, Garmin and WingX demo and see which you like.
 
MAKG1 said:
If that's really your entire question, ask it when you've at least done some check ride prep. The answers will mean slightly more than nothing at that time. Right now, they mean exactly nothing.
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Fair enough...will have a mod delete the thread for now
 
CC268 said:
Fair enough...will have a mod delete the thread for now
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Not necessarily fair enough. So you are aware, MAKG is pretty much in the anti-tablet group.

Three pieces of neutral advice:

1. All of the major players have very similar functionality. The differences are mostly in the UI - what you think is fantastic, someone else might hate. When the time comes, take advantage of the free trials they all have.

2. When, how and if an iPad will be integrated into your training is a discussion you should be having with your instructor. Instructors have differing views. And there is a lot more to tablet use for instruction than as an EFB. My choices as a CFI are going to be different than another CFI's and mine might well vary from student to student.

3. This is really a combination of the other two. When it comes to tablet use, just like so many piloting techniques, students tend to emulate their instructors. If your instructor is a tablet user and a believer in integration of an EFB into the curriculum, you may well end up selecting whichever app he or she likes. (My students have a bigger problem. Although I have my favorite, I'm pretty well-versed in most of them, so I would prefer not to steer that decision).
 
midlifeflyer said:
Not necessarily fair enough. So you are aware, MAKG is pretty much in the anti-tablet group.
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Not a fair characterization at all.

I object to them being treated as magic, or as crutches. Use them within their capability and they are fine. I am definitely not a "fanboy," and I do insist on a critical evaluation of what they actually can and cannot do.

It's just that you will find quite a lot of uses on this board that exceed their capability. Like safety analysis that includes "that never happened to me so it must not be a hazard" and accuracy "analysis" that doesn't include any measurements.

I've seen an iPad give a 0.3 mile position error at 1000 AGL, while claiming 10m accuracy, verified photographically. That should give you pause, but your reaction was that it must be user error. Now, a 0.3 mile error is probably not critical for a VFR pilot in decent conditions provided he isn't trying to cut it that close to Class B (for instance), but some people talk about using these things for "emergency" instrument approaches, which is entirely another story. The really important conclusion is that that "accuracy" Foreflight reports is not correct and cannot be relied upon.

The truth is that these devices have almost as many configurations as they have users, and their accuracy clearly does not include everything (Foreflight appears to have just the error from counting satellites). From an avionics deployment perspective, this is problematic. It means you can't transfer verification from one unit to another, so they all have to be treated as unverified. You're not an engineer, so you're not grasping exactly what that means.
 
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As a recent PPL, I would like to give you another perspective. Before I started my training, I already had an ipad. I went ahead and bought a basic subscription to Foreflight shortly after I started my training. I assumed I wouldn't be able to use it while flying as a student and didn't, for the most part. Once I had started doing cross countries and planned out flights the long way, my instructor didn't care what technology I used on solos. There was already a GNS430 in the plane so I didn't need the ipad for navigation anyway. Where it came in handy was double checking the flight plans, and switching the view to aerial maps so that I could zoom in and see what my checkpoints and the terrain looked like along my flight path. This was done before the flight and committed to memory. It also made it easier to spot the airports. Some of this you can do on Google maps, or earth anyway. I just enjoyed having it and playing with it and planning flights that I might like to do one day. It was also nice to understand how most real flight planning is actually done in this day and age. I'm sure that there are very, very few people who still flight plan the way students are taught. I'm not saying it's bad to learn, or know, as a backup but I really think students should be taught using an EFB program as well, because most are going to as soon as their training is complete anyway!
 
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Learn the basics first because the iPad or even the G1000 will fail when you need it most.

I'm a Tank commander on one of the most advanced tanks in service, the Abrams. I require my guys to show proficiency with a pry bar and an 8 pound sledge instead of the power tools, a map and compass instead of the moving map GPS on board and the manual turret controls and 10 power rifle scope instead of the stabilized, laser range finder having ballistic computer correcting wonder weapon.

Why? All of the automation will fail at some point and it usually happens when you need it most.

My suggestion is to learn to do it all manually and then after your PPL is complete, add the iPad.
 
It's the CFI's call. A decent CFI is going to ban the toy when appropriate, which is most of the time and ensure that the student can function by basic pilotage skills. I don't think having an Ipad with Foreflight is necessarily a hindrance. It's no different than having a GPS aboard the aircraft. One of the planes I did my PPL in had a GPS. I never got to use it. Towards the end I got some basic instruction in the GPS and autopilot.
 
Croomrider said:
As a recent PPL, I would like to give you another perspective. Before I started my training, I already had an ipad. I went ahead and bought a basic subscription to Foreflight shortly after I started my training. I assumed I wouldn't be able to use it while flying as a student and didn't, for the most part. Once I had started doing cross countries and planned out flights the long way, my instructor didn't care what technology I used on solos. There was already a GNS430 in the plane so I didn't need the ipad for navigation anyway. Where it came in handy was double checking the flight plans, and switching the view to aerial maps so that I could zoom in and see what my checkpoints and the terrain looked like along my flight path. This was done before the flight and committed to memory. It also made it easier to spot the airports. Some of this you can do on Google maps, or earth anyway. I just enjoyed having it and playing with it and planning flights that I might like to do one day. It was also nice to understand how most real flight planning is actually done in this day and age. I'm sure that there are very, very few people who still flight plan the way students are taught. I'm not saying it's bad to learn, or know, as a backup but I really think students should be taught using an EFB program as well, because most are going to as soon as their training is complete anyway!
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I'm not so sure that's a different perspective.

There are alternatives for all the things you've mentioned, but Foreflight is a decent planning tool for that. It's only really a problem when the iPad is treated as the only tool.

Many instructors will let you do whatever once you've proven proficiency in all the relevant techniques. My instrument instructor did the same thing. It's REAL easy to rely on the iPad for "situational awareness" to the exclusion of other things, while flying an instrument approach. This is a trap. You must be able to do it by several methods, especially without the georeferenced plates, and without any moving map if you're flying an ILS or VOR approach. Someday, you may have to do just that. Failure can look like a smoking hole.
 
MAKG1 said:
Not a fair characterization at all.

I object to them being treated as magic, or as crutches. Use them within their capability and they are fine.
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With which I agree 100%.

But we regularly apply that same standard and come to opposite results. That's where the bias comes in. Both yours and mine.

You say, "It's totally useless for a student pilot.." I say, "When, how and if an iPad will be integrated into your training is a discussion you should be having with your instructor..."
 
Train with what you will fly with.

To me it makes no sense to train with a six pack if you're going to be flying a G1000. It makes no sense to train with paper maps if you're going to be using a tablet.

As the tank guy pointed out, part of that training should be for failure modes, but I 100% disagree with the commenters that said don't use it during training.
 
172andyou said:
Train with what you will fly with.

To me it makes no sense to train with a six pack if you're going to be flying a G1000. It makes no sense to train with paper maps if you're going to be using a tablet.

As the tank guy pointed out, part of that training should be for failure modes, but I 100% disagree with the commenters that said don't use it during training.
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The tablet has the paper maps in it, however, they don't show the map in its entirety unless you did through the settings. Ask a tablet pilot where to find the VFR routes on the LAX sectional and 7/10 will say "I dunno google" Ask a pilot with a chart in front of him and he will show you on the left. Although people don't know how to find the in either scenario, the paper pilot will run into it on the side of the map.

A pilot needs to know how to use a paper map and use a paper calculator. That way they know where to look and what calculations are actually being done by the tablet when they use it.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
The tablet has the paper maps in it, however, they don't show the map in its entirety unless you did through the settings. Ask a tablet pilot where to find the VFR routes on the LAX sectional and 7/10 will say "I dunno google" Ask a pilot with a chart in front of him and he will show you on the left.
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Yes, that's exactly why I recommend training with what you are going to fly with. These are good lessons to learn during training instead of when you're a low-time PPL flying family around.
 
172andyou said:
Yes, that's exactly why I recommend training with what you are going to fly with. These are good lessons to learn during training instead of when you're a low-time PPL flying family around.
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Foreflight may show the margins if you know the magic incantation hidden deep in the settings, but not all EFBs do.

The example given is a reason why you should be proficient in ALL the correct tools. A visit to LA should not involve fumbling with a tablet for unfamiliar or absent features unless you intend on busting airspace. It's really easy to do this correctly with a paper TAC even if you're not local.

Unless you train in some place where the margins are important, you will not be trained in how to use the TAC margins like you have to in LA airspace.
 
Sac Arrow said:
It's the CFI's call. A decent CFI is going to ban the toy when appropriate, which is most of the time and ensure that the student can function by basic pilotage skills. I don't think having an Ipad with Foreflight is necessarily a hindrance. It's no different than having a GPS aboard the aircraft. One of the planes I did my PPL in had a GPS. I never got to use it. Towards the end I got some basic instruction in the GPS and autopilot.
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Well stated, Sac!! :yes:

I had a student that passed his private checkride Saturday. He had done the cross country planning both on his iPad (with ForeFlight) as well as on paper (sectional and nav log).

The DPE let him use his iPad for exam. He looked over the paper stuff, but everything else was tablet.

He also had the plan on ForeFlight on his iPhone and loaded into the Garmin 430 in the airplane.
 
MAKG1 said:
Foreflight may show the margins if you know the magic incantation hidden deep in the settings, but not all EFBs do.

The example given is a reason why you should be proficient in ALL the correct tools. A visit to LA should not involve fumbling with a tablet for unfamiliar or absent features unless you intend on busting airspace. It's really easy to do this correctly with a paper TAC even if you're not local.

Unless you train in some place where the margins are important, you will not be trained in how to use the TAC margins like you have to in LA airspace.
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I wonder how many tablet users are able to put the Margins of a TAC on their tablet in less than 60 seconds? Another example, as we discussed in another thread is how quickly can one pull up Foreflights downloaded AFD and pull up the written out TEC routes on their foreflight. For most people, that amount of time is likely larger than someone who just has a physical AFD.

Someone new who just uses foreflight might not even know the margins on a sectional are even there, let alone how to find them. Same goes for Tec routes. Knowing how to use a physical sectional and a physical AFD or anything else, does make foreflight easier to use.

Foreflight also does weight and balance. Imagine someone not knowing how to do that because foreflight does it for them!
 
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Well, to be fair, when given a TEC route in a clearance, they spell it out for you and if you type it into Foreflight exactly as given, it works. There is, however, no timely way to look them up. You just have to trust that Foreflight plots it correctly, which I don't like much as it doesn't understand how to deal with moving from one airway to another without a named intersection between them. A few TEC routes have those, and Foreflight plots them wrong.

An example is EDWN3. The route string is PMD V386 V23 LAX V25 ALBAS SLI LAX. If you look at the TAC, the intersection between V386 and V23 is just west of Magic Mountain and has no name.
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, to be fair, when given a TEC route in a clearance, they spell it out for you and if you type it into Foreflight exactly as given, it works. There is, however, no timely way to look them up. You just have to trust that Foreflight plots it correctly, which I don't like much as it doesn't understand how to deal with moving from one airway to another without a named intersection between them. A few TEC routes have those, and Foreflight plots them wrong.

An example is EDWN3. The route string is PMD V386 V23 LAX V25 ALBAS SLI LAX. If you look at the TAC, the intersection between V386 and V23 is just west of Magic Mountain and has no name.
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Not to say it isn't done, but I am yet to have a TEC route spelled out to me.
I have the first page of the Tec routes in the AFD bookmarked (could also be physically book marked in a real book too!). Takes about 15 seconds to find flipping through the pages for your route. As you said, Foreflight doesn't always depict them correctly so checking is mandatory. SMO125 V64 SLI is also depected incorrectly Foreflight some of the south transitioning routes...
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I wonder how many tablet users are able to put the Margins of a TAC on their tablet in less than 60 seconds? Another example, as we discussed in another thread is how quickly can one pull up Foreflights downloaded AFD and pull up the written out TEC routes on their foreflight. For most people, that amount of time is likely larger than someone who just has a physical AFD.

Someone new who just uses foreflight might not even know the margins on a sectional are even there, let alone how to find them. Same goes for Tec routes. Knowing how to use a physical sectional and a physical AFD or anything else, does make foreflight easier to use.

Foreflight also does weight and balance. Imagine someone not knowing how to do that because foreflight does it for them!
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This is exactly why the tablet should be used in training if it's going to be used on game day. Everything you mention is in there, pulling up the TAC legend is way less than 60 seconds. Tap 'Documents', then tap 'TAC Legend' and you're there. And if you've used it in training and your CFI has been demanding answers that are found on the legend, then you'll have learned that.
 
I am a clueless 33 hr student. I figure I will always be learning even after I get my private. I am am happier to learn the tablet way AFTER I get my cert, just because I have not a clue where I am unless I look outside and use my sectional. It is awesome to realize "wow, I DO know where I am"...just with pencil, paper, sectional, and E6B. Just one perspective.

OP, I wish you had not deleted your post. It detracts from the learning!
 
172andyou said:
Train with what you will fly with.

To me it makes no sense to train with a six pack if you're going to be flying a G1000. It makes no sense to train with paper maps if you're going to be using a tablet.

As the tank guy pointed out, part of that training should be for failure modes, but I 100% disagree with the commenters that said don't use it during training.
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Yeah,I gotta agree; train with what you're gonna use, and have enough proficiency with the manual stuff that you can revert, if you have to. I think we overstate the complexity of student pilot flight planning - it ain't that difficult. .. do it manually a couple of time, then get on with the real world.

I fly with an external GPS (Dual), talking to Foreflight on my iPad; it is my primary, and the panel mount Garmin 530 backs it up; whatever I need to do, IFR or VFR, I do it on Forflight first, then get the G-530 set up. . . .the user interface is quicker, and better designed. And the flight planning tools are intuitive.

And I'm from pre-GPS days, starting way, way back in the 1970's. . .I remember guys didn't think DME was worth the trouble and expense. . .
 
172andyou said:
This is exactly why the tablet should be used in training if it's going to be used on game day. Everything you mention is in there, pulling up the TAC legend is way less than 60 seconds. Tap 'Documents', then tap 'TAC Legend' and you're there. And if you've used it in training and your CFI has been demanding answers that are found on the legend, then you'll have learned that.
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Umm, TEC != TAC.

While the TEC routes are in there, they are DEEPLY hidden and you can bust pretty bad if you trust Foreflight's plotting and don't look them up. Any IFR pilot in southern California is going to get these. They are all over the region there. They aren't everywhere else.

And TAC margins are not the legend. Look at the LA TAC margins, and you'll see what we're talking about. Those margins are REQUIRED by regulation if you are going to use the SFRA, and it's really stupid not to have them if you are going to transition the B, 'cause they tell you how to do it without busting. Only a few B's have these.

A tablet is never perfect, and Foreflight keeps adding features faster than they can debug them. They are hardly unique in that regard; it's a sickness in the consumer software engineering field itself. But it's why you would be a fool to trust your certificate to them alone.

I'm consistently amazed that pilots are trained to treat the airplane as though it's going to kill you at any moment by stopping the engine immediately at the worst possible place, but navigation, even in IMC, is just accepted on faith.
 
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I used foreflight during PPL training and on my checkride. DPE who was an FAA examiner was fine with it as long as I had paper. Used it on my Ifr ride as well...
 
How come in flying there is such a stigma about new technology?

We don't use slide rules and abacus.
We all have given up walking to the TV to change channels, None of us are faxing in our POA posts, while our old lady rubs the laundry against that metal thing in a wash bin.. You know that thing I am talking about?

Never understood how that worked.


But in flying, if you use a calculator, certain folks assume you can't do it the old way.

Last time I did a W&B on paper was on my checkride. I know how to do it w/ paper but why would I if I can get the answer in a couple clicks?

Foreflight and iPad are quite prolific and I don't hear hundreds of stories of lost pilots or calling in emergencies because they can't get down.

I just don't think it is that big a deal. If you are techie and you start dorking around w/ foreflight, you are in a sense, learning about the sectional, and clicking around and exploring it leads you to different aspects of flying tools.

Get an iPad and learn how foreflight works if you want.
If your CFI or DPE doesn't like it, do it the old way.

Can it crap out? Yup. Be prepared for that.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
How come in flying there is such a stigma about new technology?

We don't use slide rules and abacus.
We all have given up walking to the TV to change channels, None of us are faxing in our POA posts, while our old lady rubs the laundry against that metal thing in a wash bin.. You know that thing I am talking about?

Never understood how that worked.


But in flying, if you use a calculator, certain folks assume you can't do it the old way.

Last time I did a W&B on paper was on my checkride. I know how to do it w/ paper but why would I if I can get the answer in a couple clicks?

Foreflight and iPad are quite prolific and I don't hear hundreds of stories of lost pilots or calling in emergencies because they can't get down.

I just don't think it is that big a deal. If you are techie and you start dorking around w/ foreflight, you are in a sense, learning about the sectional, and clicking around and exploring it leads you to different aspects of flying tools.

Get an iPad and learn how foreflight works if you want.
If your CFI or DPE doesn't like it, do it the old way.

Can it crap out? Yup. Be prepared for that.
Click to expand...
The same reason you arent a "real" pilot for flying with a chute. People are stubborn as*holes. Who refuse to change from adf and paper.
Technology can fail the same way paper can fly out the window. Nothing is fail proof just prepare the best you can.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk
 
All I'm suggesting is that if you know how to do things longhand you are better prepared for when things go south. I love tech and did my IFR training with Foreflight and have had the iPad lock up. I don't do W&B by hand, I have an app for that but I do know the process well enough to know how to do it by hand and if the numbers that the app spits out are good or garbage.

I've seen pilots that rely on their gadgets so much that when they couldn't get in to their Fltplan account they were worried about being able to make their flight.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
How come in flying there is such a stigma about new technology?

We don't use slide rules and abacus.
We all have given up walking to the TV to change channels, None of us are faxing in our POA posts, while our old lady rubs the laundry against that metal thing in a wash bin.. You know that thing I am talking about?

Never understood how that worked.


But in flying, if you use a calculator, certain folks assume you can't do it the old way.

Last time I did a W&B on paper was on my checkride. I know how to do it w/ paper but why would I if I can get the answer in a couple clicks?

Foreflight and iPad are quite prolific and I don't hear hundreds of stories of lost pilots or calling in emergencies because they can't get down.

I just don't think it is that big a deal. If you are techie and you start dorking around w/ foreflight, you are in a sense, learning about the sectional, and clicking around and exploring it leads you to different aspects of flying tools.

Get an iPad and learn how foreflight works if you want.
If your CFI or DPE doesn't like it, do it the old way.

Can it crap out? Yup. Be prepared for that.
Click to expand...

Plug the following route into Foreflight. This is from an actual IFR clearance I got in December.

KWJF EDWN3 KTOA

Then go look up what EDWN3 means. It's in the SW A/FD under TEC routes, very near the end.

If you were to fly that, would you fly V201? If you did, you'd get a phone number to call.

You simply have to know that Foreflight can give you very convincing BS and have a way to verify it is not going to get you busted. Just because it gives an answer doesn't mean it is the correct answer.

I don't know about you, but I've heard about a dozen people get phone numbers over airspace busts, most recently last Sunday. It's not common for them to say anything but that they are ready to copy the number, so there is no way to know if a tablet caused their problems. But that's exactly what it would sound like.
 
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MAKG1 said:
Umm, TEC != TAC.
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We may need to explain what a TEC route is for folks outside California or the northeast.

TEC, or Terminal Enroute Control, routes are published preferred IFR routes that lie completely in areas and altitudes served by TRACON. They are in the AFD right after the Preferred IFR Routes section. You can fly, for example, from New Hampshire to Virginia without ever speaking to a Center controller. They are handled a bit differently on the two coasts, but the basics are the same.

And, as you point out, some of them are not handled particularly well by the EFBs, although one would hope a pilot would notice the telltale clue of the pop-up warning and red box FF gives for your EDWN example :D. Can be done, but, like entering a pure text ODP, takes a little more work. Kind of like, you know, using paper. (As a high school teacher of mine liked to put it, the more things change the more they remain the same.)

A reason pilots should not abdicate planning and decision making to an EFB and should receive training in their use.
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
How come in flying there is such a stigma about new technology?

We don't use slide rules and abacus.
We all have given up walking to the TV to change channels, None of us are faxing in our POA posts, while our old lady rubs the laundry against that metal thing in a wash bin.. You know that thing I am talking about?

Never understood how that worked.


But in flying, if you use a calculator, certain folks assume you can't do it the old way.

Last time I did a W&B on paper was on my checkride. I know how to do it w/ paper but why would I if I can get the answer in a couple clicks?

Foreflight and iPad are quite prolific and I don't hear hundreds of stories of lost pilots or calling in emergencies because they can't get down.

I just don't think it is that big a deal. If you are techie and you start dorking around w/ foreflight, you are in a sense, learning about the sectional, and clicking around and exploring it leads you to different aspects of flying tools.

Get an iPad and learn how foreflight works if you want.
If your CFI or DPE doesn't like it, do it the old way.

Can it crap out? Yup. Be prepared for that.
Click to expand...

I agree with this post...there is always a group of folks who are anti-technology, no matter what the case may be (not even referring to flying...this is the case for many other hobbies/sports/etc). It always gets blown out of proportion too. By all means I am going to learn the classic methods.

Didn't mean for this to turn into a huge debate.
 
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red4golf said:
All I'm suggesting is that if you know how to do things longhand you are better prepared for when things go south. I love tech and did my IFR training with Foreflight and have had the iPad lock up. I don't do W&B by hand, I have an app for that but I do know the process well enough to know how to do it by hand and if the numbers that the app spits out are good or garbage.

I've seen pilots that rely on their gadgets so much that when they couldn't get in to their Fltplan account they were worried about being able to make their flight.
Click to expand...

Another good post that I agree with.

Thanks
 
MAKG1 said:
You simply have to know that Foreflight can give you very convincing BS and have a way to verify it is not going to get you busted.
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Not that convincing. When I do it, Foreflight advises: "No Joy"
 
MAKG1 said:
I've seen an iPad give a 0.3 mile position error at 1000 AGL, while claiming 10m accuracy, verified photographically.
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Was the tablet operating on the internal GPS? I bought a garmin GLO, and have noticed that the GPS works much better since I have started using it.

I will say, that I have had the GLO, and my tablet overheat and had batteries die.

I always plan everything on paper and electronically. I know how to use all the other methods of navigation available to me, and I keep paper charts and tools handy 'just in case'.

Then again, the farthest I have ventured from home is 112.5 NM (KCHD - KSDL)

My instructor did let me use my android tablet (with Garmin Pilot) during my training for my private. However, he would routinely fail my tablet and make me revert to paper. I liked that approach. I am very comfortable with paper and with the tablet now.
 
azpilot said:
Was the tablet operating on the internal GPS? I bought a garmin GLO, and have noticed that the GPS works much better since I have started using it.

I will say, that I have had the GLO, and my tablet overheat and had batteries die.

I always plan everything on paper and electronically. I know how to use all the other methods of navigation available to me, and I keep paper charts and tools handy 'just in case'.

Then again, the farthest I have ventured from home is 112.5 NM (KCHD - KSDL)

My instructor did let me use my android tablet (with Garmin Pilot) during my training for my private. However, he would routinely fail my tablet and make me revert to paper. I liked that approach. I am very comfortable with paper and with the tablet now.
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Roger - I use an external Dual GPS, Bluetooth to iPad/Foreflight; never relied on the internal GPS, so no idea if it's reliable. I've had the current set-up for three or four years, I think, and it's generally been as accurate (or more) then the panel mount.

And I'm not buying "seeing other pilots that can't file without. . ." etc., etc., - Not doubting the poster; maybe he has seen that, but it's not a situation I've observed.

You guys remember - the instructions are usually printed on the E6B, right? And most of us would do a reasonableness check on a route before we flew it. . .?
 
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