IOS 8.3 Breaks the Dual 150 and Bad Elf

LauraE51

LauraE51

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Laura
We ForeFlight folks got this message from FF today saying that IOS 8.3 causes a problem when delivering position information from the above two devices to FF. Strangely, FF shows that my Dual 150 is connected and the Dual app shows it's connected to the satellites. Not sure why this is apple's problem and not FF's. I'm also a bit peeved that while i bought my Dual 150 just las summer, they're referring to it as an "early model".

I'd rather not shell out for a Stratus, so i'll rely on the Garmin 430 for now.
 
Looks like FF and Stratus,are trying to influence your choices. Have both ,but starting to look like they are getting greedy.
 
frfly172 said:
Looks like FF and Stratus,are trying to influence your choices. Have both ,but starting to look like they are getting greedy.
Click to expand...

This is part of the reason why I decided to not buy an iPhone today and went with the Galaxy S6 instead. The only reason I was going to get an iPhone was for FF. Great product but if you aren't going to let me choose what I want to make your product work then fine.
 
I feel like I am being pushed to buy something more to do the same thing I was already getting. I hope this was a small mistake by apple or foreflight. I pay for VOR,DME, NDB...... tough decision to pay for a stratus right now.
 
pyelut said:
..... tough decision to pay for a stratus right now.
Click to expand...

The Stratus is overkill for me, i am thinking about upgrading to the Dual 160A, which is $150. I'm a bit ticked off, though, since the Dual 150A is only a year old. Fortunately, i've two iPad minis for flying, one which i hadn't upgraded to 8.3. however, i'm hoping Apple will update to 8.31 soon.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Bad Elf claims other GPS devices are affected as well, including Garmin.

http://bad-elf.com/blogs/bad-elf/18...with-apple-ios-8-3-and-external-gps-receivers

The link below tends to support what Bad elf said
https://forums.garmin.com/showthrea...armin-Connect-won-t-sync-after-iOS-8-3-update
Click to expand...

My GLO isn't registering although it's got a bluetooth connection. Coincidentally my GDL39 3D is working perfectly, and I just did an update on that about a week ago using the GDL utility app on the iPad. Both Foreflight and Garmin Pilot are functioning fine on my iPad 4G post-iOS update.
 
I wish I saw this before downloading 8.3 last night.
 
Is your iPad backed up on a computer? Can't you do a restore from backup or does the 8.3 update stay in play? If you aren't using one of the older GPS dongles the update isn't a problem.
 
No, I don't back it up. I don't have anything that important on there. I only know how to rollback Windows installations.

Dual XGPS150 bought about 2 years ago.
 
Stewartb said:
Is your iPad backed up on a computer? Can't you do a restore from backup or does the 8.3 update stay in play? If you aren't using one of the older GPS dongles the update isn't a problem.
Click to expand...

This question came up when one of apple's previous releases was a complete abortion and I think the answer was that once you upgrade there's no going back.

I learned then to never again upgrade immediately.
 
FF email did say they complained to Apple about the problem not letting external GPS data through to the Apps. I upgraded from Gen 1 iPad to an Air2 and Bad Elf Pro this winter. Now it's a krapshoot.
 
timwinters said:
This question came up when one of apple's previous releases was a complete abortion and I think the answer was that once you upgrade there's no going back.

I learned then to never again upgrade immediately.
Click to expand...

The immediate previous version is still on your computer.

On Windows XP
Documents and Settings\<User>\Application Data\Apple Computer\iTunes\XXX Software Updates

On Windows Vista/Windows 7 Users\<User>\AppData\Roaming\Apple Computer\iTunes\XXX Software Updates

On Mac
~/Library/iTunes/XXX Software Updates

where XXX is either iPhone or iPad.
I did the upgrade on Thursday (iPad) so the backup version is

iPad2,2_8.3_12F69_Restore.ipsw

If you want to keep many versions, make a copy of this file someplace else.
 
Hi all,

In case it's not clear from my handle, I'm the CTO/co-founder of Bad Elf. I'm also the resident pilot here, but issues like this keep preventing me from sleeping enough to be safe to fly!

Just FYI, this issue affects all apps and older-model GPS units equally. I can say with 98% confidence this an iOS 8.3 bug in the iOS code that handles GPS data that flows from accessories like ours into Apple's CoreLocation framework. This framework is responsible for passing the GPS data into apps like ForeFlight, JeppFD, etc.

The utility apps provided by us/Dual/Garmin have direct APIs/SDK access to the hardware, so the CoreLocation bug doesn't affect us, and accessories should appear to work just fine. This is a very good thing because it means we still have the ability to do firmware updates if it comes to that.

We've provided the sniffer logs and all necessary information to Apple engineers, and I believe it will be fixed quickly. Luckily -- unlike some of the intermittent GPS bugs in iOS 6 -- this issue is easy to reproduce 100% of time. From an engineering/troubleshooting perspective that is a good thing, although it hurts us more in the short term.

I'm happy to answer any questions here, or feel free to drop us a note anytime to support@bad-elf.com. If you depend on your external GPS for daily flying or commercial operations, please get in touch and we'll see what we can do to help. Our newer GPS units (GPS Pro+, Lightning dongle, etc) use a newer Apple protocol that does not seem to be affected.

I'm hopeful this will be fixed in one of the point releases (8.3.1/8.3.2) that Apple usually pushes out shortly after major releases like this. In the meantime, thanks for you patience. Rest assured we are doing everything possible to get this resolved quickly.

Best regards,
Brett
 
BrettAtBadElf said:
Hi all,

The utility apps provided by us/Dual/Garmin have direct APIs/SDK access to the hardware,
Brett
Click to expand...

So, the obvious question for me is why ForeFlight can't/doesn't use an API to access the data from the GPS. If your app can do it, why can't FF?
 
bbridges51 said:
So, the obvious question for me is why ForeFlight can't/doesn't use an API to access the data from the GPS. If your app can do it, why can't FF?
Click to expand...

Good question. The short answer is that apps like FF can use our SDK, but it adds complexity and increases iTunes App Store review times.

The app review team has to go find our HW in some big warehouse, which can add hours/days to the already-long review times. Not a big deal for normal release schedules, but apps like FF and JeppFD need to be able to do very quick fixes if/when big issues are found -- otherwise app issues can literally keep airlines grounded. When hardware is linked to the app, expedited reviews (with 2-24hr turnaround, even on the weekend) are not available.

We've raised this concern to Apple many times, but for now, the review process is the biggest hurdle preventing mission-critical apps from adopting our SDK.

Best regards,
Brett
 
Glad I haven't upgraded yet! I'll be waiting to hear when this issue is resolved.
 
It's refreshing to get information directly from the source (thanks Brett at BadElf!). The normal wild speculation is fun to participate in, but this is better ;-)
 
E-mail just received from CloudAhoy:

If you are using an external bluetooth GPS with an iOS device, we highly recommend that you do not upgrade to iOS 8.3.

The newly released iOS 8.3 appears to have a bug which prevents apps including CloudAhoy from receiving location data from some external bluetooth GPS devices including Dual XGPS 150, Bad Elf Pro, and Garmin GLO. Several external GPS devices, including Stratus and Bad Elf Pro+, work with iOS 8.3.

Last week Apple released iOS 8.3. Yesterday ForeFlight sent a Customer Notice about this possible bug, and my tests confirm - it's indeed a problem.

Unfortunately, once you upgrade the a new iOS, you cannot downgrade.
Click to expand...
 
It is never a good idea to jump into a new version. Let those who go first figure out what is wrong with it, and which apps are effected. Heck, I'm still running 7.1.2, and have no compelling reason to upgrade. FF works great, Bad Elf works great, and that is all I use the iPad for, more or less.
 
BillTIZ said:
Bad Elf Pro + still works with iOS 8.3
Click to expand...

Correct. As long as you're using an iOS device with a Lightning port, the Bad Elf GPS Pro+ and Bad Elf GPS for Lightning dongle will work with iOS 8.3.

The following will NOT work (based on our testing):

* 30-pin iOS devices with any external GPS unit (plug-in or Bluetooth)
* Lightning iOS devices with older GPS units (Bad Elf GPS Pro, GLO, Dual, etc)

The is due to the accessory protocol versions used under the hood. The 30pin vs. Lightning distinction may seem a bit odd for Bluetooth accessories, but that's where the protocol versions changed. This 8.3 issue is in the older protocol.

As soon as we get any substantial updates from Apple or our test team, I will post them here.

-Brett
 
What bothers me more, right now, is the silence coming from Dual, since it's the Dual 150A which sits in my EFG. Should Apple not fix this problem, which new unit should i purchase? The Dual 160A is listed by FF as a compatible unit, so is that the best way to go? (no, i'm not going to fork out the $900 for a Stratus). i am a bit peeved that FF hasn't allowed more GPS units to connect.
 
bbridges51 said:
Should Apple not fix this problem, which new unit should i purchase?
Click to expand...

Well, I'm obviously a bit biased :wink2:

I am very confident this bug will be fixed soon. There are a lot of military and corporate/commercial pilots (with the Apple reps to match) that rely on external GPS receivers for their daily missions.

This iOS bug affects the Dual 150/160 units and our GPS Pro (2200) device. These all use the older accessory protocol. Our GPS Pro+ (2300) uses the newer protocol, and works fine with all iOS devices that have a Lightning port.

I will post to this thread as soon as we have any updates from Apple!

-Brett
 
Bret,

Do you have any research about how the Bad Elf performs as compared with Dual? i'm specifically interested in battery life. i'd chosen the DUal because it had its own battery, although both the iPad and Dual would be burning power to maintain the Bluetooth connection. With the Bad Elf plugged into the iPad, just one batter would be powering both units. So, what's the battery performance of an Ipad > Dual compared to iPad>Bad Elf?
 
bbridges51 said:
Bret,

Do you have any research about how the Bad Elf performs as compared with Dual? i'm specifically interested in battery life. i'd chosen the DUal because it had its own battery, although both the iPad and Dual would be burning power to maintain the Bluetooth connection. With the Bad Elf plugged into the iPad, just one batter would be powering both units. So, what's the battery performance of an Ipad > Dual compared to iPad>Bad Elf?
Click to expand...

Actually, we have both plug-in (dongle) and Bluetooth units.

The Bluetooth units have their own battery, which lasts ~24-32hrs. We designed with it commercial pilots in mind, so it had to outlast the longest international flights. The power consumption on the iPad side is the same for both units -- and way less than the internal GPS or our plug-in.

Our plug-in model uses about the same amount of power as the internal GPS does on cellular iPads -- which translates to 40-60% battery life when using GPS versus not. Same for LCD brightness. I get 5hrs max with my iPad using the internal or dongle GPS. The major advantage to the plug-in model is the lack of batteries to keep charged, but the downsides are power consumption on the iPad and a smaller antenna (ie: less sensitivity) than the Bluetooth units.

HTH!

-Brett
 
BrettAtBadElf said:
Well, I'm obviously a bit biased :wink2:

I am very confident this bug will be fixed soon. There are a lot of military and corporate/commercial pilots (with the Apple reps to match) that rely on external GPS receivers for their daily missions.

This iOS bug affects the Dual 150/160 units and our GPS Pro (2200) device. These all use the older accessory protocol. Our GPS Pro+ (2300) uses the newer protocol, and works fine with all iOS devices that have a Lightning port.

I will post to this thread as soon as we have any updates from Apple!

-Brett
Click to expand...

I really appreciate hearing directly from the source like this. Also, I had a troubleshooting issue with BadElf some time ago and I can't say enough about the customer service.
 
Hi guys,
Try to update firmware on GPS device.
This works with Garmin GLO
I have been using iPod touch 5 iOS 8.2 with GARMIN GLO (firmware 2.6). After update of iOS to 8.3 the iPod paired with GLO device but couldn't read GPS signal (this is what you have described here). What I did is as follows:
1. I downloaded the Webupdater software on my PC from GARMIN
2. I connected the GPS device to my PC using usb and updated firmware to 2.7 on GLO device

Works pretty well :)
 
damian1977 said:
Hi guys,
Try to update firmware on GPS device.
This works with Garmin GLO
I have been using iPod touch 5 iOS 8.2 with GARMIN GLO (firmware 2.6). After update of iOS to 8.3 the iPod paired with GLO device but couldn't read GPS signal (this is what you have described here). What I did is as follows:
1. I downloaded the Webupdater software on my PC from GARMIN
2. I connected the GPS device to my PC using usb and updated firmware to 2.7 on GLO device

Works pretty well :)
Click to expand...

I did this upgrade on our GLO as well, and it DOES allow the GLO to function with Lightning iOS devices running iOS 8.3 (like the Bad Elf GPS Pro+ and Lightning dongle).

However, iOS devices with 30-pin dock connectors are still out of luck with any external GPS receiver (Bluetooth or dongle), including the GLO and Bad Elf receivers.

Still no updates from Apple since Saturday...

-brh
 
Also to confirm, all 3 of Dual's GPS products are affect per their site:

***************

I just updated to iOS 8.3 and my XGPS device stopped working. Why?

There is a bug in iOS 8.3 which blocks position information coming from Bluetooth GPS devices. The symptom is that your GPS looks like it is working, but your apps do not show your location. (Not all apps are affected, but most are.) The problem affects the XGPS150, XGPS160 and XGPS170 as well as Bluetooth GPS devices from other manufacturers. We have contacted Apple it, and they are aware of the issue. We do not have an ETA from them for a fix, but they are treating it as a priority. In the meantime, some (but not all) users are getting around the bug by turning off Location Services, rebooting the iOS device, and turning Location Services back on.

****************

I have a 160 and via email their support confirmed the 150 and 160 are affected, then their support FAQ page confirmed the 170 as well.

-Brian
 
Certainly a bummer for us all. i've tried the reset suggested by Dual but the connection is still broken. Hoping that Apple hasn't left pilots out in the cold. I'm surprised that Cap'n Ron hasn't chimed in.
 
When does the "iOS broke it, but because we're the best company on the market and want your business, trade in your Dual for an $xxx credit toward your Bad Elf Pro" promotion start? :wink2:
 
gitmo234 said:
When does the "iOS broke it, but because we're the best company on the market and want your business, trade in your Dual for an $xxx credit toward your Bad Elf Pro" promotion start? :wink2:
Click to expand...

hmmm.....
 
Re: IOS 8.3 Breaks the Dual 150 and Bad El

Went by the Apple Store yesterday to ask an unrelated software question and got chewed out for not upgrading to 8.3.

The worker was surprised when I about slapped his hand away from my iPad. He was going to update the software out of kindness....:mad2:

It took the manager to answer my question because the Genuis Bar refused to help until I updated.
 
Re: IOS 8.3 Breaks the Dual 150 and Bad El

ARFlyer said:
Went by the Apple Store yesterday to ask an unrelated software question and got chewed out for not upgrading to 8.3.

The worker was surprised when I about slapped his hand away from my iPad. He was going to update the software out of kindness....:mad2:

It took the manager to answer my question because the Genuis Bar refused to help until I updated.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you explained the problem to the manager that 8.3 has a major bug and then bitched that the Genuis Bar is not very smart.
 
How many people have iPads with built in cellular but CANNOT get a GPS signal in your cockpit straight from the iPad?

Just curious, as I've flown both SR22s and P28s with no issue getting good GPS just on the iPad.

:dunno:
 
Datadriver said:
How many people have iPads with built in cellular but CANNOT get a GPS signal in your cockpit straight from the iPad?



Just curious, as I've flown both SR22s and P28s with no issue getting good GPS just on the iPad.



:dunno:
Click to expand...


Never had an issue, high wing or low wing. It's a no-brainer to just get the cellular version.
 
3.3 on the Hobbs yesterday. VGT - 1L9 (North Las Vegas NV to Parowan UT and return) Bad Elf Pro+ with ForeFlight on iOS 8.3, no issues.
The Pro+ also doubles as a data logger.
 
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