Intersection takeoff w/near collision.

gismo

gismo

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Yesterday I decided to fly from Venice (VNC) to Page Field in Ft Myers FL to visit a friend. VNC has two (four if your counting both directions) operational runways 22/4 and 31/13. The ASOS was OTS but the wind was clearl blowing from the SE at about 15 Kt so I taxied out to 13 which was also well aligned with my direction of flight. As I headed that way and during my runnup I listened to the CTAF and heard a couple aircraft using runway 4. The departure ends of 4 and 13 are hidden from each other by a stand of trees so I couldn't visually check for anyone departing from 4. After one of the two airplanes I heard on the CTAF announced turning crosswind and the other completed a T&G I announced (twice IIRC) that I was departing to the south on runway 13 and started to roll. Fortunately I was fairly light and got airborne in about 1000 ft because as I reached the end of the trees I found another Cessna on a takeoff roll along runway 4 about to cross in front of me. IIRC the trees end about 500 ft prior to the intersection but it could be a bit further, all I really know for certain is that I didn't see the Cessna until he was very close and I had just broken ground. Our paths were such that I went directly over or slightly behind him at the intersection of the two runways. He was still on the ground at that point and I was probably 500 feet AGL when we crossed. I plan to submit a ASRS report on this but still don't know what I could have done to avoid the situation. I suppose I could have taxied around to rwy 4 but that was about a mile and a half away and the wind clearly favored rwy 13 (per the wind sock alongside 13 it was about 110 at 15Kt) plus I figured that by taking off to the SE I'd be clear of the pattern traffic more quickly than a departure to the NE and then then circumnavigating the airport would allow. All I can think of is to never depart from a crossing runway that doesn't have visibility to/from the other. I don't think I ever considered putting the Baron back on the runway (which probably would have led to a collision), but I did think about turning to the right in the air if I didn't have vertical separation (for instance if he lifted off sooner). I'm not sure he ever saw me either.

What do any of you have to offer on this?
 
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At an airport where I could see all of the traffic, I probably would have done the same thing, BUT with the uncertainty that you describe I would have gone with the flow. So what if it is a longer taxi...the consequences of having it your way or the highway could have been catastrophic.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
At an airport where I could see all of the traffic, I probably would have done the same thing, BUT with the uncertainty that you describe I would have gone with the flow. So what if it is a longer taxi...the consequences of having it your way or the highway could have been catastrophic.

Bob Gardner
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The long taxi wasn't the only issue and I'd still have no way of knowing that someone else wasn't departing unannounced from the runway I abandoned. But you're probably right that the odds would have been better on 4.
 
...why do I have the feeling I've read this before? :D
 
SCCutler said:
...why do I have the feeling I've read this before? :D
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It's deja vu all over again, eh? Maybe I should have mentioned that I posted here and on BT. I think it might be interesting to compare the responses.
 
gismo said:
Yesterday I decided to fly from Venice (VNC) to Page Field in Ft Myers FL to visit a friend. VNC has two (four if your counting both directions) operational runways 22/4 and 31/13. The ASOS was OTS but the wind was clearl blowing from the SE at about 15 Kt so I taxied out to 13 which was also well aligned with my direction of flight. As I headed that way and during my runnup I listened to the CTAF and heard a couple aircraft using runway 4. The departure ends of 4 and 13 are hidden from each other by a stand of trees so I couldn't visually check for anyone departing from 4. After one of the two airplanes I heard on the CTAF announced turning crosswind and the other completed a T&G I announced (twice IIRC) that I was departing to the south on runway 13 and started to roll. Fortunately I was fairly light and got airborne in about 1000 ft because as I reached the end of the trees I found another Cessna on a takeoff roll along runway 13 about to cross in front of me. IIRC the trees end about 500 ft prior to the intersection but it could be a bit further, all I really know for certain is that I didn't see the Cessna until he was very close and I had just broken ground. Our paths were such that I went directly over or slightly behind him at the intersection of the two runways. He was still on the ground at that point and I was probably 500 feet AGL when we crossed. I plan to submit a ASRS report on this but still don't know what I could have done to avoid the situation. I suppose I could have taxied around to rwy 4 but that was about a mile and a half away and the wind clearly favored rwy 13 (per the wind sock alongside 13 it was about 110 at 15Kt) plus I figured that by taking off to the SE I'd be clear of the pattern traffic more quickly than a departure to the NE and then then circumnavigating the airport would allow. All I can think of is to never depart from a crossing runway that doesn't have visibility to/from the other. I don't think I ever considered putting the Baron back on the runway (which probably would have led to a collision), but I did think about turning to the right in the air if I didn't have vertical separation (for instance if he lifted off sooner). I'm not sure he ever saw me either.

What do any of you have to offer on this?
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Story does not make sense.......................

You are departing on runway 13.... He is departing on runway 13.....

How is he going to cross in front of you???????????????????????

I am sure you meant the cessna was taking off from 4 but your wording of "along" makes the whole thing seem strange....:yesnod:
 
It's the same at BTP, lance, where the runway is taller in the midsection and you can't see the opposite end. I've been listening listening listening, then I announce that I'm taking 26.

About 500 feet down the runway I hear a cessna call departing 08- he keyed and departed, as I managed to tuck it off on the second taxiway.

There is nothing you can do, short of a stinger missile.
 
Sorry to here this Lance. As you know, I've had something close a couple times when I transmitted a couple times and never heard the other pilot. I'm with Bruce, it seems it's going to occur. Just hope the timing causes a miss or like you, one can get off the ground early (which probably wouldn't be the case for me). I do try to listen longer now, during the run up, etc. but if the other guy just goes, not much one can do. Was there a place to change pants nearby?

Best,

Dave
 
So the only common thread among these alleged incidents is that they only happen to twin drivers? No wonder insurance is so expensive.

Dave Siciliano said:
Sorry to here this Lance. As you know, I've had something close a couple times when I transmitted a couple times and never heard the other pilot. I'm with Bruce, it seems it's going to occur. Just hope the timing causes a miss or like you, one can get off the ground early (which probably wouldn't be the case for me). I do try to listen longer now, during the run up, etc. but if the other guy just goes, not much one can do. Was there a place to change pants nearby?

Best,

Dave
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N801BH said:
Story does not make sense.......................

You are departing on runway 13.... He is departing on runway 13.....

How is he going to cross in front of you???????????????????????

I am sure you meant the cessna was taking off from 4 but your wording of "along" makes the whole thing seem strange....:yesnod:
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You found a typo I missed, it's corrected now. The Cessna was taking off on runway 4, not 13.
 
wabower said:
So the only common thread among these alleged incidents is that they only happen to twin drivers? No wonder insurance is so expensive.
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Maybe that's because us twin drivers are more self-directed? Could also be coupled to the desire to use the longest runway no matter what the wind although that wasn't the situation in my case here.
 
I always worry when the (presumaby) locals are doing something different than what makes the most sense to me. I usually cave and get in line with them unless there's a strong reason to do something else. You had plenty of logical reasons for your choice, and if you had used 4 who's to say some other guy wouldn't have decided to use 13 for the same reason you did? Maybe that's why they call it see and avoid. Maybe and avoid should be in bigger font.
gismo said:
Maybe that's because us twin drivers are more self-directed? Could also be coupled to the desire to use the longest runway no matter what the wind although that wasn't the situation in my case here.
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Wayne, I didn't have the exact circumstance, but have had several issues arise at uncontrolled fields and have posted those. Had a fella land while I was back taxiing once that wasn't fun; ran me off the runway. I had transmitted twice with no answer. I looked, but never saw him in the pattern. He just plopped in with me on the runway. As he passed, he did transmit "sorry bout that" as he went by. Luckily, I didn't break anything when I exited into the grass.
Had that jet takeoff opposite direction at Jack Edwards when approach told him I was on short final on the ILS and I transmitted twice--he just took off right into me.

Dangerous places when folks don't look and listen. I have to say, I usually follow existing traffic unless I can clearly see another runway will be clear. But, it sounds as if another pilot wasn't listening--just talking-- like a lot of folks I've met <g>

Best,

Dave
 
Wow... scary stuff!

I learned the value of a functioning radio Wednesday afternoon. I was ferrying the Chief from MGW to its new home at WAY. After leaving class D I switched off the handheld and did some local flying for a while. There was a high overcast that threatened a very early darkness so at 4 I decided to head west and get to Waynesburg.

I switched on the handheld and heard a few transmissions on 122.8 (even heard a Bonanza going into 4G7 -- at least 40 miles away!) As I approached WAY about 8 miles out I heard an experimental announcing left downwind for 27 at Greene County (The official name for the Waynesburg airport -- you'll hear both).

I looked and looked -- but steel gray skies, winter haze, and snow covered hills interspersed with clumps of black trees camouflaged the experimental.

I heard him announce final. I overflew the runway, looked over the windsock, then entered a left downwind for 27. I announced entering each leg, but heard no reply.

I pulled power, slipped in to final, and gently touched down on the pavement. As I rolled to taxi speed I S-turned -- and facing me on the far end of the runway was an RV.

I taxied off and watched him takeoff on 9.

I don't know if he heard me, so I'm not sure if he waited until I was down to takeoff in the opposite direction we'd both landed. I know the radio is good as I had just transmitted to tower back at MGW several times and heard all the local traffic within 40 miles.

My guess is he heard me announce final and waited until I was down and off before takeoff -- at least I hope that's the case. Quite frankly I don't look at the far end of the runway until I level off before touchdown, so I'm sure I wouldn't have seen him until it was too late.

His RV was white, and my Chief is white with a blue stripe -- neither very visible in overcast, late afternoon winter-sky conditions.
 
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dmccormack said:
Quite frankly I don't look at the far end of the runway until I level off before touchdown, so I'm sure I wouldn't have seen him until it was too late..
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Probably a habit worth trying to change. You really want to look at the entire runway, and as much as the airport as you can see to take in what is happening.
 
jesse said:
Probably a habit worth trying to change. You really want to look at the entire runway, and as much as the airport as you can see to take in what is happening.
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I'd like to claim perfection, but until I'm as confident landing this squirrelly tailwheel as I am a trike, I don't expect to be able to do that for a while...:frown3:

More details: I flew over the runway and checked to be sure it was plowed, etc before I decided to land. I never saw him on the ground even though I looked -- may have blended in along the taxiways which were intermittently snow-covered. Once on Final I could see the entire runway, but once on short final it's all about maintaining centerline and descending to the aim point. On this day we had fairly stiff winds from 220 at 1000' AGL, with calm to variable on the ground (we have three coal-fired powerplants in a 30 mile radius -- the best 1000' AGL winds aloft indicators ever made).

I've been taught, have taught, and use the gradual adjustment of view technique -- you fly to your aim point, and once you begin your level-off, you look further and further down the runway and use peripheral vision to determine height above the ground (in a 3-point this becomes view-out-the-side). The nose quickly obscures everything straight ahead.
 
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You did everything you could. Even if you'd "gone with the flow" on Runway 4, there's no reason to believe someone else not using (or not having) a radio would not have launched on 13. It's a risk that exists at nontowered airports where you can't see all the runways from all the other runways. Once you've done everything you can, as you did, all you can do is either accept the risk or not operate at such an airport.

BTW, I think the "deja vu" refers to the intersection collision at Quincy IL in 1996.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07015&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07015&key=2
 
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It is like deja vue all over again Lance. But not because this was posted in two places by you. But because I have had a very similar event occur to me at Lantana airport on the the east coast of Florida.

If you come up with a solution let me know. The bet plans, actions, and radio calls still cannot prevent this from occurring. All I can say is vigilance!
 
gismo said:
Could also be coupled to the desire to use the longest runway no matter what the wind although that wasn't the situation in my case here.
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I have run into this situation. Small airplanes want to use the runway more aligned with the wind even if the runway is shorter. Bigger airplanes will accept the crosswind in order to use the longer runway. I can only recall getting close to someone once, at Rock Springs, WY. But I was going through the intersection as I could see him start his roll.
 
Glad you got out without incident.....not much to add beyond what others posted. Gives head on a swivel new meaning, and an easy way to suck in a seat cushion.

We have the same problem at one of the local airports (KMIV).......I hope we get the obstruction study complete and get the funding to hack out all those stinkin' trees.
 

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GMascelli said:
Glad you got out without incident.....not much to add beyond what others posted. Gives head on a swivel new meaning, and an easy way to suck in a seat cushion.

We have the same problem at one of the local airports (KMIV).......I hope we get the obstruction study complete and get the funding to hack out all those stinkin' trees.
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Yikes! That's definitely an accident waiting to happen!!!

VVS Doesn't have quite the same problem as only a few of us dare fly on 14:

03891.jpg
 
Port Clinton, Ohio (PCW) has the same situation with a woods blocking vision... I have had crossing traffic issues there twice - in spite of radios, etc.. At uncontrolled airports people are busy running up the engine, listening to the ASOS, talking to passengers, etc. and will miss your radio calls.. All you can do is be really alert and be ready to dump the plane onto the grass...

At my home airport, I often use the crosswind runway just to stay sharp... Of course, I announce my intentions and my position on each leg of the pattern - and not just a quick call, I make it obvious... In spite of that every once in a while someone will get their knickers in a wedgie... The last time there was an issue it was an itinerant Baron, that came straight in on the ILS 27 (vfr conditions and and he only announced on unicom when on short final) while I was using 23, with the winds out of the NW... There was no real issue, I saw him coming from the right and below and extended my base to give him time then hooked back to land, by which time he was turned off on the taxiway... In the lounge he came up and aggressively wanted to know if I was the 'SOB' using the wrong runway - it was clear to me that he was posturing for his passengers... Normally I would make a soft answer to turn away wrath and go on about my business... But even a Caspar Milquetoast like me has a threshold...

"23 was the ACTIVE RUNWAY in use for the past half an hour, if you had bothered to listen to your radio, Jack!" I countered in a loud voice and then turned away to pour some coffee...
That deflated him, and in a much softer voice that his passengers could not hear he said, "uuuh, I was talking to ATC and I didn't hear you."
"It wasn't even close, buddy.", I shrugged and walked away...

denny-o
 
Dr. O said:
"23 was the ACTIVE RUNWAY in use for the past half an hour, if you had bothered to listen to your radio, Jack!" I countered in a loud voice and then turned away to pour some coffee...
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An uncontrolled field has an active runway?
 
It doesn't have to even have an intersecting runway and obstructions to be a problem.

I was on a charter at one of Allentown, Pa's small surrounding airports and had my copilot and passengers aboard, preparing for takeoff. Saw another aircraft taxi to and hold short of the opposing runway, and inquired of his intentions. No answer to several queries. Watched as he sat there, both of us holding short. After a short while, I decided to taxi out and depart. Announced departure, taxiied out, and started the takeoff roll. After 200 feet of rollout, he taxiied out onto the runway AND THEN announced departure, at which time I throttled back and departed the runway onto the grass. He then saw me and stopped and taxiied back and apologized, and I am sure, cleaned his shorts.

I taxiied back and departed, "bidding him a good flight."

My passengers were a little shaken, but were happy that everything was OK.

Darn, I miss charter flying!
 
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