Interesting questions: ILS or LOC/DME RWY 32 KBKF

[denverpilot]

Here's a fun plate to look at and think about.

A friend who's regularly flying into and out of Buckley AFB shared this one with me.

Things to note or ask yourself:

- Where do you look up the frequency of "Chan 33" for the TACAN?

(For extra credit: Can you find it in Foreflight with your "I don't need paper charts" digital plates?)

- Why do you need it?

- How do you set this approach up in a G1000 equipped aircraft?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Link to the plate:

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1105/00538ILD32.PDF

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Things to note or ask yourself:

- Where do you look up the frequency of "Chan 33" for the TACAN?

I gotta admit, I don't even know which official FAA pub this would be in.

However, I found the following "formula" on another forum:

Up to channel 59 you have to add 1063.
From channes 70 on you have to add 1053.

So, in this case, 1063+33 = 1096, so we'd tune 109.6 to pick it up. Gonna have to remember that little trick somehow.

(For extra credit: Can you find it in Foreflight with your "I don't need paper charts" digital plates?)

Hell, it's not even on the paper charts is it? Unless you can find a VORTAC with that channel and read the frequency off it.

- Why do you need it?

DME.

- How do you set this approach up in a G1000 equipped aircraft?

I dunno, are they in the database or not?

You also missed another question - And this will probably become more obvious when you get started on your IR:

How do you shoot this approach if you can't get vectors to final?

 

[John Collins]

Here's a fun plate to look at and think about.

A friend who's regularly flying into and out of Buckley AFB shared this one with me.

Things to note or ask yourself:

- Where do you look up the frequency of "Chan 33" for the TACAN?

You can find it in the AFD. Also with the AeroNav Charts, there is a MLS Channeling and Frequency Pairing table in the front of the book. It has a frequency listed for Channel 33Y (Y is the designation for frequencies +.05 MHz) of 109.65, so drop the last 5 and you get 109.6.
You can also find it in the Jeppesen manual in the radio data section, look up BKF in Colorado.

(For extra credit: Can you find it in Foreflight with your "I don't need paper charts" digital plates?)

- Why do you need it?

I don't, I would use the GPS in lieu of the DME. All needed waypoints are named and should be in the database. Without an IFR GPS, the DME is needed for the localizer approach and for identifying ANNNE and CHRES on the ILS.

- How do you set this approach up in a G1000 equipped aircraft?

Select the approach and load or activate it. Use the GPS waypoints to determine any needed TACAN fixes. If some are missing, calculate the information from the chart. The approach has to be flown with VLOC selected and the ILS frequency active, only using the GPS for identification of needed waypoints.

 

[Palmpilot]

Here's a link to the chart on the AOPA site:

http://download.aopa.org/ustprocs/current/SW-1/bkf_ils_or_loc_dme_rwy_32.pdf

Since they don't encode the date in their URLs, this link should still be valid after the next chart cycle.

 

[jason]

I gotta admit, I don't even know which official FAA pub this would be in.

However, I found the following "formula" on another forum:

Up to channel 59 you have to add 1063.
From channes 70 on you have to add 1053.

So, in this case, 1063+33 = 1096, so we'd tune 109.6 to pick it up. Gonna have to remember that little trick somehow.



Hell, it's not even on the paper charts is it? Unless you can find a VORTAC with that channel and read the frequency off it.



DME.



I dunno, are they in the database or not?

You also missed another question - And this will probably become more obvious when you get started on your IR:

How do you shoot this approach if you can't get vectors to final?

You don't, I suppose. Since flying the missed requires ATC RADAR monitoring, I guess they assume they'll always be there to provide vectors.

 

[Palmpilot]

How do you shoot this approach if you can't get vectors to final?

CHRES, the IAF, is in my Garmin's database, so if you have an IFR GPS you could fly direct to it.

 

[BillTIZ]

The latest upgrade to ForeFlight now includes the A/FD and the TACAN Ch 33 (109.6) is listed under Radio aids to Navigation. So as long as I can tune the DME to 109.6 and tune 109.7 for the LOC/ILS I'm good to go.

 

[jesse]

There is no published procedure turn which would make things a bit interesting if you were coming from the north. So you'd have to pass CHRES and then work your way back onto the LOC somehow. Best to just do this with vectors to final since you need the radar monitoring for the missed procedure anyways.

 

[denverpilot]

BillTIZ is headed toward what I was getting at more than those who said they'd use the GPS waypoints. Also hit the only place you can find the TACAN Channel to frequency information in Foreflight, and as he pointed out, it only recently showed up when the AF/D pages were added.

(Supposedly according to a friend, this data is also in the Appendices of the hard-copy NOS chart books, but I don't have one to check it... and it's definitely in that information section in front of all your plates in the Jepp chart books.)

"Big Hint" on what the real question is that underlies these others: Which Navaid is on NAV 1 and which is on NAV 2 and which CDI are you flying on the G1000, and why do you have to set it up that way?

In my aircraft we have a boring ol' DME that has a switch to "un-slave" it from the NAV 1 receiver and select the appropriate Nav frequency we want the DME to use its standard pairing from... so we can fly it off of CDI 1/Nav 1 with the DME set to 109.6.

I just thought it was neat, you don't see the "split DME" thing on all that many plates around here.

 

[aterpster]

Here's a fun plate to look at and think about.

A friend who's regularly flying into and out of Buckley AFB shared this one with me.

Things to note or ask yourself:

- Where do you look up the frequency of "Chan 33" for the TACAN?

(For extra credit: Can you find it in Foreflight with your "I don't need paper charts" digital plates?)

- Why do you need it?

- How do you set this approach up in a G1000 equipped aircraft?

1. Where to find TACAN equivalent? Answer: Use Jeppesen charts.

2. G-1000: I can either set up CHRES for direct-to under ATC radar monitoring or set up VTFs if that what ATC has in mind for me. There is no way I would do this approach with lost comm because of its proximity to KDEN and the fact the missed approach requires radar (that would not be allowed on an FAA designed procedure, but this is a military procedure).

3. Extra credit: If flying a jet do not exceed 200 KIAS because you will be beneath the floor of Class B airspace at some times during transition to this IAP or while inbound from CHRES.

 

[denverpilot]

It continually amazes me how much better the Jepp charts are...

 

[jesse]

It continually amazes me how much better the Jepp charts are...

I think they look like cartoons. I'll keep my better looking free NACO charts.

 

[BillTIZ]

There is no published procedure turn which would make things a bit interesting if you were coming from the north. So you'd have to pass CHRES and then work your way back onto the LOC somehow. Best to just do this with vectors to final since you need the radar monitoring for the missed procedure anyways.

The missed approach hold at ANNNE would work to get turned around in a non-radar environment if it were an emergency. But the missed does need to be "radar monitored", but radar is not required for the approach. Agreed, there is no published transition from Enroute to approach.

 

[roncachamp]

Here's a fun plate to look at and think about.

A friend who's regularly flying into and out of Buckley AFB shared this one with me.

Things to note or ask yourself:

- Where do you look up the frequency of "Chan 33" for the TACAN?

The frequency pairing plan can be found in the NACO approach plate and A/FD legends.

- Why do you need it?

Well, you'd need it to establish the DME fixes if you didn't have TACAN. They're all based on the Buckley TACAN so you have to know the paired VHF frequency for your DME. But the missed approach procedure requires TACAN anyway.

 

[roncachamp]

You also missed another question - And this will probably become more obvious when you get started on your IR:

How do you shoot this approach if you can't get vectors to final?

The missed approach procedure requires ATC radar monitoring. If you can't get vectors to final this approach is unavailable.

Another missed question:

What's the purpose of the timing table?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You don't, I suppose. Since flying the missed requires ATC RADAR monitoring, I guess they assume they'll always be there to provide vectors.

Forget the missed. You're on fire, you're taking this one to the ground. You don't have a GPS. How do you shoot the approach without vectors to final?

"Big Hint" on what the real question is that underlies these others: Which Navaid is on NAV 1 and which is on NAV 2 and which CDI are you flying on the G1000, and why do you have to set it up that way?

I only see one navaid that I can receive on the G1000, and it will automatically be set on Nav1 when I activate the approach. Not sure what you're getting at.

Another missed question:

What's the purpose of the timing table?

Oooh... Good call. I'm stumped - You don't need the time for the ILS, and if you're shooting it LOC-only, DME is required and usable for identifying everything, including the miss. So, why the times?

 

[denverpilot]

I only see one navaid that I can receive on the G1000, and it will automatically be set on Nav1 when I activate the approach. Not sure what you're getting at.

Okay I'll let you guys off the hook and tell ya what he said...

The G1000 needs to be set with NAV 1 on the TACAN (VOR) frequency. This is because you're going to get your DME distance off of it. NAV 2 is the ILS/LOC.

You fly the NAV 2 CDI while using the NAV 1 DME.

For most G1000 pilots, apparently this looks "all wrong". I haven't done much with the G1000 so I can't comment.

As I mentioned, in my aircraft, I can set individual channels on the DME by "un-slaving" it from the NAV radios. So the "cockpit picture" can be set up to look exactly the same as a "normal" ILS.

(We also have a NAV 1/NAV 2 switch but the un-slaving is done on the face of the King DME and then tuning is by NAV frequency on the DME and it figures out it's appropriate UHF frequency pairing. So technically I could also just throw the switch for the DME to the NAV 2 which would be tuned to BKF anyway. More than one way to skin the cat in that setup. I tend to like the "un-slave" better because there will be a visual indication that you're doing "something different than normal" on the face of the DME. Switching it to NAV 2 doesn't provide that information. But you're going to use the DME off of BKF for the missed anyway... so it really doesn't matter.)

My understanding is that you can't make this approach look very "normal" in the G1000 aircraft... because of the split NAV1/2 stuff.

 

[jason]

Forget the missed. You're on fire, you're taking this one to the ground. You don't have a GPS. How do you shoot the approach without vectors to final?

So, if you're on fire you're going to fly the procedure turn? I'd fire up whatever GPS I could get my hands on and try like hell to intercept the localizer straight up. Approach plates be damned....

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The G1000 needs to be set with NAV 1 on the TACAN (VOR) frequency. This is because you're going to get your DME distance off of it. NAV 2 is the ILS/LOC.

Incorrect.

The VAST majority of G1000 installations do not have DME at all. Why would you bother, when you have dual GPS? So no, you're gonna have Nav1 on the ILS frequency, and Nav2 too unless you can figure out another useful place to have that. And, you're still going to get the distances from the GPS.

For most G1000 pilots, apparently this looks "all wrong". I haven't done much with the G1000 so I can't comment.

Apparently your friend hasn't either. There isn't anything that looks different at all if you're navigating on Nav2 - No matter what you're navigating from on the G1000, it all shows up in the same place, on the HSI. The only thing that really changes is the annunciation of the nav source, and if you're navigating via GPS it'll be green but if you're navigating via VOR/LOC it'll be purple.

As I mentioned, in my aircraft, I can set individual channels on the DME by "un-slaving" it from the NAV radios. So the "cockpit picture" can be set up to look exactly the same as a "normal" ILS.

Yup, older aircraft with DME or a KNS-80 or similar box will need to use their "hold" or tune the DME differently. Our old Archer was a pain that way, its DME was part of the Nav1 head so you couldn't have it on any other frequency than Nav1. That kept it from being able to fly the ILS 36 at the home 'drome - DME required, but based off the VOR. If you tune Nav1 to the VOR to get the DME, you have to use Nav2 for the localizer, but it didn't have a glideslope on Nav2.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So, if you're on fire you're going to fly the procedure turn? I'd fire up whatever GPS I could get my hands on and try like hell to intercept the localizer straight up. Approach plates be damned....

What procedure turn? Nope... And no GPS.

I'll give you a hint: The answer to this one isn't completely answered on the approach plate, you'll need to note what's missing from the plate, and see the area chart. (See Skyvector and click "Denver Area" if you don't have the area charts.)

 

[jason]

What procedure turn? Nope... And no GPS.

I'll give you a hint: The answer to this one isn't completely answered on the approach plate, you'll need to note what's missing from the plate, and see the area chart. (See Skyvector and click "Denver Area" if you don't have the area charts.)

I understand that there is no procedure turn (or IAF, for that matter). I was challenging the premise of your imaginary scenario...

 

[aterpster]

Incorrect.

The VAST majority of G1000 installations do not have DME at all. Why would you bother, when you have dual GPS? So no, you're gonna have Nav1 on the ILS frequency, and Nav2 too unless you can figure out another useful place to have that. And, you're still going to get the distances from the GPS.

Even if the G-1000 has a DME (I believe the Mustangs do because of the Fl 240 and above requirement) it is totally unnecssary for this or any other IAP under FAA jurisdiction. Now, flying a VOR/DME IAP in Honduras is a different matter.

 

[aterpster]

I think they look like cartoons. I'll keep my better looking free NACO charts.

The "cartoons" become indispensible for flying to most parts of the world.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I understand that there is no procedure turn (or IAF, for that matter). I was challenging the premise of your imaginary scenario...

There is an IAF - CHRES.

Problem is, there's no way to get there without a GPS, so how would you shoot the approach without vectors to final? Ya can't.

Same thing with another approach to a military facility that I have flown - the ILS 27 into Volk ANGB. At least in that case it'd be possible to get there using the DLL 342 radial, though that's clearly "unofficial" and you'd be responsible for terrain clearance.

I'm guessing that the IAF's on these approaches like CHRES and IBUCK are probably in the enroute structure on military enroute charts that have airways based on TACANs instead of VOR's or something... Or maybe the military don't need no stinkin' transition routes.

 

[roncachamp]

There is an IAF - CHRES.

Problem is, there's no way to get there without a GPS, so how would you shoot the approach without vectors to final? Ya can't.

Same thing with another approach to a military facility that I have flown - the ILS 27 into Volk ANGB. At least in that case it'd be possible to get there using the DLL 342 radial, though that's clearly "unofficial" and you'd be responsible for terrain clearance.

I'm guessing that the IAF's on these approaches like CHRES and IBUCK are probably in the enroute structure on military enroute charts that have airways based on TACANs instead of VOR's or something... Or maybe the military don't need no stinkin' transition routes.

The "military enroute charts" are the same IFR Enroute High and Low Altitude charts produced by NACO used by civilians.

 

[denverpilot]

So I'll have to ask him "what's different" about the approach and why he feels you have to set it up NAV 1 BKF, NAV 2 ILS/LOC. Perhaps he's trying to set up to fly it coupled to the Autopilot? ... ???

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The "military enroute charts" are the same IFR Enroute High and Low Altitude charts produced by NACO used by civilians.

Well in that case, I guess the standards for military IAP's don't require a transition route. Of course, they probably all have GPS and generally get vectored to final anyway.

 

[Everskyward]

3. Extra credit: If flying a jet do not exceed 200 KIAS because you will be beneath the floor of Class B airspace at some times during transition to this IAP or while inbound from CHRES.

That is unless you are an F-16 flying to or from Buckley. They go over my house, which is incidentally also the practice area for KAPA, easily exceeding the 250 knots below 10,000, let alone the 200 knots below class B.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So I'll have to ask him "what's different" about the approach and why he feels you have to set it up NAV 1 BKF, NAV 2 ILS/LOC. Perhaps he's trying to set up to fly it coupled to the Autopilot? ... ???

I'm sure interested in hearing his reasoning...

If you want to fly a coupled approach with the KAP 140, you just set it up on the G1000, and let the KAP140 continue to do what it was doing before (holding the selected altitude and heading), when you've got the approach activated you just hit "APR" on the autopilot. It'll show "HDG" and "ALT" for the active modes, and "APR ARM" to indicate that approach mode is armed. When it intercepts the localizer, it'll switch to "APR" and "ALT" and have "GS ARM" underneath. When it intercepts the glideslope, it'll show "APR" and "GS". The GFC700 functions in a similar manner.

For those G1000 installations equipped with an actual DME, the DME can be set to couple to Nav1 or Nav2 or held, so it should be possible to use the real DME even with the ILS in Nav1.

So, I'm rather confused about what the big deal is.

 

[aterpster]

That is unless you are an F-16 flying to or from Buckley. They go over my house, which is incidentally also the practice area for KAPA, easily exceeding the 250 knots below 10,000, let alone the 200 knots below class B.

I didn't realize the hypothetical was about flying a military aircraft.

 

[aterpster]

Well in that case, I guess the standards for military IAP's don't require a transition route. Of course, they probably all have GPS and generally get vectored to final anyway.

Don't try to second guess the U.S. military on procedure design.

 

[roncachamp]

Well in that case, I guess the standards for military IAP's don't require a transition route. Of course, they probably all have GPS and generally get vectored to final anyway.

Many nonmilitary IAPs lack feeder routes as well.

 

[roncachamp]

That is unless you are an F-16 flying to or from Buckley. They go over my house, which is incidentally also the practice area for KAPA, easily exceeding the 250 knots below 10,000, let alone the 200 knots below class B.

§ 91.117 Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.


(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).


(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

 

[jason]

There is an IAF - CHRES.

Problem is, there's no way to get there without a GPS, so how would you shoot the approach without vectors to final? Ya can't.

Same thing with another approach to a military facility that I have flown - the ILS 27 into Volk ANGB. At least in that case it'd be possible to get there using the DLL 342 radial, though that's clearly "unofficial" and you'd be responsible for terrain clearance.

I'm guessing that the IAF's on these approaches like CHRES and IBUCK are probably in the enroute structure on military enroute charts that have airways based on TACANs instead of VOR's or something... Or maybe the military don't need no stinkin' transition routes.

How in the world did I miss that the first time?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Many nonmilitary IAPs lack feeder routes as well.

But in those cases, the IAF is part of the low enroute structure instead.

Are there US civilian IAPs that have IAF's that are not part of the enroute structure that do not have feeder routes, and aren't "RADAR REQUIRED?"

 

[Everskyward]

§ 91.117 Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.


(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).


(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

They can fly slower than 250 kts safely.

4.1. Instrument Approach:
Chapter 4 INSTRUMENT PROCEDURES
4.1.1. The F-16 is Approach Category E. Missed approach will be accomplished in accordance with flight manual procedures. Missed approach airspeed is 200-250 KIAS.
4.1.2. Approach Category D minimums may be used at an emergency/divert airfield where no Cate- gory E minimums are published. Airfields with Category D minimums may be designated as an alter- nate (divert) airfield. Further, practice instrument approaches may be flown using Category D minimums if VMC can be maintained throughout the procedure. Under these circumstances, Approach Category D minimums may be used provided:
4.1.2.1. A straight-in approach is flown.
4.1.2.2. The aircraft is flown at a final approach airspeed of 165 KIAS or less.
4.1.2.3. The aircraft is flown at 255 KTAS or less for the missed approach segment of the approach. At high pressure altitudes and temperatures, 255 KTAS may not be compatible with published missed approach airspeeds and Category D approaches should not be flown.

http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/END-Archive/afi11-2f-16v3.pdf

I think they must be getting some kind of waiver from Denver TRACON. They are probably also kept low to stay out of the DIA traffic flow. Still I've wondered why they are allowed to fly so fast in airspace that is used by many different types and speeds of airplane, not all of them IFR.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I think they must be getting some kind of waiver from Denver TRACON. They are probably also kept low to stay out of the DIA traffic flow. Still I've wondered why they are allowed to fly so fast in airspace that is used by many different types and speeds of airplane, not all of them IFR.

1) Because they have guns, so you'd better not complain.

2) I bet they can "see" the other traffic using something other than the Mark I Eyeball.

 

[Doggtyred]

§ 91.117 Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.


(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).


(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

Item D applies to your military fast movers. They can and do routinely fly faster than those limits.

 

[roncachamp]

But in those cases, the IAF is part of the low enroute structure instead.

Sometimes, and sometimes radar is required.

Are there US civilian IAPs that have IAF's that are not part of the enroute structure that do not have feeder routes, and aren't "RADAR REQUIRED?"

I doubt it.