Interesting Impossible turn paper

[jesse]

A zero reaction-time lag for your film shows just how close a from 500ft AGL turn could be with God only knows how many seconds of lag time.

BTW: Do you use stick or cursor controls?

Stick. I am ..fairly good with the C172SP and Extra 300S in flight sim.. I've had another PPL try this same thing, he spun it in the first three times. People don't realize that you have to get that NOSE DOWN and STEEP TURN in.. like NOW..

I've done it at altitude a few times in a 172. Right now I use 800 ft as my number. Right before I takeoff I touch the spot on the altimeter where I would turn back. If I am alone I'll say it verbally " at x feet we turn back".. I keep a pretty good eye on the engine instruments and altimeter every takeoff. I personally think I wouldn't have much of a WTF factor because I am almost expecting it to happen.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

If it's "relatively easy", why is it necessary to initiate it above the minimum altitude?

Are you referencing a reasonable safety margin for flight training purposes or something different?

After they practice at altitude, we do fly it at low obstacle airports to a LDG a few times.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Stick. I am ..fairly good with the C172SP and Extra 300S in flight sim.. I've had another PPL try this same thing, he spun it in the first three times. People don't realize that you have to get that NOSE DOWN and STEEP TURN in.. like NOW..

I've done it at altitude a few times in a 172. Right now I use 800 ft as my number. Right before I takeoff I touch the spot on the altimeter where I would turn back. If I am alone I'll say it verbally " at x feet we turn back".. I keep a pretty good eye on the engine instruments and altimeter every takeoff. I personally think I wouldn't have much of a WTF factor because I am almost expecting it to happen.

The WT_ factor is highly variable in real life. It's hard for some pilots to accept that it's a true emergency, no matter how much they've trained and so much more time goes by than they really would believe and that is the real big deadly variable in these time sensitive but otherwise not difficult maneuvers.

I've got a force feedback stick but never did re-install it after moving the computer so fly sim with the cursors, which is hard. Crashed a lot in the beginning.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Are you referencing a reasonable safety margin for flight training purposes or something different?

After they practice at altitude, we do fly it at low obstacle airports to a LDG a few times.

And at what point are you willing to skip the practice at altitude and bet your life that they'll get it right the first time?

I'm not saying that it isn't a good tool to have in the toolbox...I've just seen way too many cases of theoretically proficient pilots of all certificate levels who can't fly to a Private Pilot standard within a week or two after training.

I trained a guy in a King Air who, day after day, would have died on the first engine failure simulation, then did fine after that.

I acted as captain for a copilot checkride in a Falcon (two weeks out of training, and had been flying the airplane), and we would have Vmc-rolled right into the ground with him trying to correct with aileron had I not stepped on the rudder.

I'll save you the agony of the rest of the list

My point is that I will teach and perform this maneuver so as to have margin. If I decide to turn back to the airport, I can do it at something higher than 1.05 Vs so that if I need to tighten it up, I can; if I get caught yielding to the strong temptation of trying to coordinate my turn based on my path over the ground rather than through the air on a windy day (remember the ol' downwind turn argument?), I've got a little room for error.

My experience with off-airport landings (both planned and unplanned) probably makes me more comfortable than a lot of pilots with that option, and if necessary I'll fly right to the ragged edge between the sweat and the stall, but if you're relying on a maximum-performance maneuver with no room for error to save your hide, you're taking more risk than I am willing to accept.

Fly safe!

David

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

And at what point are you willing to skip the practice at altitude and bet your life that they'll get it right the first time?

I'm not saying that it isn't a good tool to have in the toolbox...I've just seen way too many cases of theoretically proficient pilots of all certificate levels who can't fly to a Private Pilot standard within a week or two after training.

I trained a guy in a King Air who, day after day, would have died on the first engine failure simulation, then did fine after that.

I acted as captain for a copilot checkride in a Falcon (two weeks out of training, and had been flying the airplane), and we would have Vmc-rolled right into the ground with him trying to correct with aileron had I not stepped on the rudder.

I'll save you the agony of the rest of the list

My point is that I will teach and perform this maneuver so as to have margin. If I decide to turn back to the airport, I can do it at something higher than 1.05 Vs so that if I need to tighten it up, I can; if I get caught yielding to the strong temptation of trying to coordinate my turn based on my path over the ground rather than through the air on a windy day (remember the ol' downwind turn argument?), I've got a little room for error.

My experience with off-airport landings (both planned and unplanned) probably makes me more comfortable than a lot of pilots with that option, and if necessary I'll fly right to the ragged edge between the sweat and the stall, but if you're relying on a maximum-performance maneuver with no room for error to save your hide, you're taking more risk than I am willing to accept.

Fly safe!

David

Oh I hear you and nobody knows for sure what the future will bring when any pilot is faced with doing ANY flying maneuver for real, no matter how many times they practiced it in training either by themselves or with somebody else helping. It matters little whether it's a routine, normal landing (how many of them have been turned into accidents over the years by fully trained pilots?) or some other more "complicated" maneuver of any kind. Sometimes in training for this return to runway turn, the best thing some pilots learn is that with their less than refined reflexes and/or dwelling on denial of the real situation, they're not ever even gonna try it unless they're at or above TPA, so the training is valuable in that way.

The training is good for pilots.
Whether we pilots will be good enough in the end, the end will tell.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Oh I hear you and nobody knows for sure what the future will bring when any pilot is faced with doing ANY flying maneuver for real, no matter how many times they practiced it in training either by themselves or with somebody else helping. It matters little whether it's a routine, normal landing (how many of them have been turned into accidents over the years by fully trained pilots?) or some other more "complicated" maneuver of any kind. Sometimes in training for this return to runway turn, the best thing some pilots learn is that with their less than refined reflexes and/or dwelling on denial of the real situation, they're not ever even gonna try it unless they're at or above TPA, so the training is valuable in that way.

The training is good for pilots.
Whether we pilots will be good enough in the end, the end will tell.

I believe we have achieved agreement

Fly safe!

David

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Don't give me some big verbal lesson about doing it; it was purely my choice.

Of course, it does show just how bad MSFS' flight model is. C172 climb out at 15-20 degrees pitch up and still maintain airspeed? Yeah right.

I'll have to try that in X-Plane when I get home.