Interest rates, loans, etc.

Been there, done that. Went to school for 1.5 years on loans after I quit playing basketball b/c it was too much like a 'job' *DOH!*. Then quit school for 3 years. Sure enough, Mr. Direct Loans wanted his money back. Started making the monthly payments (only $80 min at the time). Was making ~$40k, which USED to sound like a lot until you have rent/house payment, car payment, STUDENT LOAN payment, etc. thrown in there -- $40k doesn't last as long as you once thought it would.
...

Yep. I tried the "work & school so I don't have to take loans" bit. It didn't work (for me) - ask my Business Law prof. :hairraise:

I was working at a $14/hr job, Rachel was working two $8+/hr jobs and trying to pay for school ourselves and still meet the previous financial obligations (car payment -$250/month, rent - $700/month, etc.) ...

What thing is not like the other? I'm well established on a fairly high paying job and I don't have a car payment. I have three very old cars.

Contrary to what is seen on TV, it not required by U.S. law that citizens have a monthly car payment until they fall into the grave.

Ok, I still have an airplane payment. :redface: Only 7-8 years left.
 
wtf chuck. that doesnt make any sense. you want me to QUIT school so that i can save up a measly 4 or 5000 bucks to pay for my last semester??? brilliant, i can even further delay my entry into the workforce, where i could probably score at least a 35K a year FLYING job, and much more starting out in engineering.
 
What thing is not like the other? I'm well established on a fairly high paying job and I don't have a car payment. I have three very old cars.

Contrary to what is seen on TV, it not required by U.S. law that citizens have a monthly car payment until they fall into the grave.

Ok, I still have an airplane payment. :redface: Only 7-8 years left.

The car payment is a result of my wife's old beater car finally dieing and we were forced to find something suitable to keep her going until we could get something 'better' post-school. We were dirt broke and had to finance all but $1000 of a car purchase. That $250/month is a $6000 loan over 5 years at an ungodly rate (which is a result of my previous run-ins with bad debt). We're still driving old cars, but we had to finance it as well. :(
 
It is a hell of a lot easier to talk this debt-free **** when you're debt-free. I don't have debt problems at all--and at the same time I'm not blind enough to think that it is the most evil thing in the world and does not sometimes make sense.
 
It is a hell of a lot easier to talk this debt-free **** when you're debt-free. I don't have debt problems at all--and at the same time I'm not blind enough to think that it is the most evil thing in the world and does not sometimes make sense.

With all due respect, Jesse, I was talking debt free **** LONG before I was debt free. It was NOT being debt free that made me want to become so. Though, I think you can only truly appreciate being debt free after you've been through collections calls and you've had to choose between paying them or buying food. Three or four months of "which bill am I paying this month" is what cemented my attitude toward debt. It's just not worth it for me. There isn't anything that I want bad enough right now. But that's me.

While I'm with Chuck in principal, I don't think it makes sense for Tony to stop school right before his last semester to save up for it. He's too close to the real money at this point. As for recovering the glider :dunno:. I'm not in a position to say whether or not he could make it another year.



Tony, in all honesty, I know you're too damn smart to get all strung out in debt. So I've stayed off my soapbox. (Well, that and I value our friendship enough not to lecture you when you really didn't ask me for my opinion on debt). The only danger sign that I've heard in this whole thread is when you were talking about being "able to make the monthly payment". Saying that two or three small times or one big one is where most people get themselves into trouble.

The only unsolicited advice that you'll get from me is to start saving for retirement the second you start your career and you'll be fine. If you do that, I guarantee you that you'll be thankful. If you don't, I guarantee that you'll regret it for years.
 
So, am I right in saying those preaching the "Debt is Evil" attitude have put themselves through some massive debt? That's something like saying guns are evil because people get shot. Hard to blame an inanimate object or resource for its evil nature if you get yourself in over your head.

I can respect wanting to buy things outright and certainly see and know the advantages, but I think a lot of times people talk themselves into thinking something is inherently evil because they've had a bad experience that was largely their own fault. It would seem debt is one of the top items on that list, yet those I know who've funded their own ventures and done well by it were, at some point, in debt to do so.
 
So, am I right in saying those preaching the "Debt is Evil" attitude have put themselves through some massive debt? That's something like saying guns are evil because people get shot. Hard to blame an inanimate object or resource for its evil nature if you get yourself in over your head.

I can respect wanting to buy things outright and certainly see and know the advantages, but I think a lot of times people talk themselves into thinking something is inherently evil because they've had a bad experience that was largely their own fault. It would seem debt is one of the top items on that list, yet those I know who've funded their own ventures and done well by it were, at some point, in debt to do so.

I wouldn't say that's 100% accurate. When I was in "over my head" it was less than $500 in credit card debt. But I could no more pay that than if it had been $10,000.

To me it's just a lifestyle choice. I noticed that when I was using debt it was somewhat of a shell game. Move this here, and buy that. Then try to figure out how to pay it off. When I considered it to be a tool, then I would allow myself to buy things that I couldn't afford.

Money fights are the #1 cause of divorce in North America. My wife and I never ever fight about money. We have six months of expenses saved in case of a rainy day, and knowing that relieves so much stress in our marriage. A year ago our hot water heater went out and I remember thinking "oh well, that's what the emergency fund is for". Not a moment of stress. Too many people turn to debt in that situation and then have to figure out how to pay it off. The problem is that they were riding the edge up to that point and don't have anywhere that they can cut. Something as simple as that can send families into a financial tail spin. I just made the choice that I'm not going to chance that.

Lifestyle choice plain and simple. I'm not blaming debt, I'm blaming my own crappy choices. As a result, I've removed it as an option.
 
I've had debt problems. 2 years ago, I couldn't make ends meet, because of all the consumer debt I had. I refi'd the house and gave the cards (except 1) to the wife. I still thought debt was a good tool then. I never let my 1 remaining cc balance get above $1000.

6 months ago, I put a heloc on the house and bought a rental property, taking our a $90,000 mortgage. I still thought debt was a good tool then.

3 months ago, I started listening to Dave Ramsey. I have, since starting to listen, heard story, after story, after story, about not just people who were BAD with money, but from people who had it all under control, had "good debt", were leveraging, etc.

Right up until the financial rug got pulled out. Medical problems. Accidents. Layoffs. Whatever.

And I started really thinking about the *risk* that comes with debt. Debt is - it truly is - a form of legal slavery - you are BONDING yourself to someone else, voluntarily, to buy today at the cost of the future.

And I started thinking about how tenuous this "all under control" situation I'm in now really is. I have 2 mortgages, 2 car loans, 1 heloc, and $1,600 EXTRA in the budget per month right now. I am NOT struggling to make ends meet.

But if something happened, and I couldn't earn what I earn now, I'm about 60 days from defaulting on those loans. So are 7 out of 10 of you, according to the statistics that show that 70% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. (And yet only 55% worry about it, which means 15% of us are having prozac moments...)

I make it clear, I am not a Christian, but some of the best MONEY wisdom on the planet can be found in the bible.
The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender (Proverbs 22:7).

He who puts up security for another will surely suffer, but whoever refuses to strike hands in pledge is safe (Proverbs 11:5).

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another (Romans 13:8).

Do not be a man who strikes hands in pledge or puts up security for debts; if you lack the means to pay, your very bed will be snatched from under you (Proverbs 22:26-27).

My son, if you have put up security for your neighbor, if you have struck hands in pledge for another, if you have been trapped by what you said, ensnared by the words of your mouth, then do this, my son, to free yourself, since you have fallen into your neighbor's hands: Go and humble yourself; press your plea with your neighbor! Allow no sleep to your eyes, no slumber to your eyelids. Free yourself, like a gazelle from the hand of the hunter, like a bird from the snare of the fowler (Proverbs 6:1-5).
If you want to consider debt a tool, that's your choice, but the thing is, NOBODY can be certain they'll never go through a trying economic time in their lives. Risking today is one thing - but putting ones future at risk for the sake of the present? That's no longer something I'm willing to allow myself to do anymore.
 
A very wise man explained financial derivitives (which include debt, perhaps a financial derivative in its simplest form) to me as follows:
Derivatives are a lot like power tools. They let you get the job done faster. But never forget that they can cut your hand off, too.

-Skip
 
Money fights are the #1 cause of divorce in North America.

We never fought about money when we didn't have any! We probably have more arguments now that we have discretionary funds to spend!:dunno:
 
We never fought about money when we didn't have any! We probably have more arguments now that we have discretionary funds to spend!:dunno:

I'll be pleased to end the arguments in your marriage Barry. I'll send a PM so you know where to send the check. Just doing my part for the aviation community. :D
 
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