Intelligent discussion about security

 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Actual data does not support that conclusion:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/u...es-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/

http://metro.co.uk/2015/01/15/the-n...igiously-motivated-will-surprise-you-5023616/

Or, check in with the FBI(scroll to the bottom for the list) https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005/terror02_05#terror_05sum
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Well, this is one of those cases where the definition of 'is' is. If you want to count it as individual acts, I guess there's a comparison to be made. However, if you want to count it as dead bodies, and injured, well the muslims are far, far ahead in that category. Perhaps it might be more accurate to state that the islamo-terrorists are far more efficient?

There's another way that might be more useful to compare 'attacks' by a per-capita representation of the population. This is where stats can be interesting. I'm an ultra, ultra-right wing person, so therefore I can be counted in the community of "sovereign citizen fringe group". But my neighbor who is merely far right wing can also be counted in the same group depending on if the population consists of anyone who votes for conservative values, or someone who has attended a rally, or written a social right wing blog, etc. So, if we take those populations and compare them to the populations of devout muslims, one could make a case that the islamo-terrorist are either a huge percent by population(per-cap), or a tiny segment depending on how one chooses to manipulate the populations on each side.

BTW, I deplore the violent actions done by right wing extremists just as I deplore it from the islamics. One difference that I see clearly is that the far right wing extremists are actually home grown, as opposed to the islamo-terrorists who for the most part are visitors, or guests in this country. And frankly, I am willing to put up with a nation which has to live with it's own brand of crackpots due to the rights in the BOR, but I think I'll take exception to importing them from undesirable third world shyte-holes just to be PC. :cheerswine:

<edited to change the word 'deploy' to 'deplore' in the last para. Oops, Freudian I guess.>
 
James331 said:
Possibly very slightly higher chance of death > giving freedoms and rights away.
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What "freedoms" and "rights" do you have when you voluntarily go fly a commercial airliner? The freedom to drive instead? The right to take the train?
 
Everskyward said:
I know they do some, because I checked a bag once that missed the flight because the TSA inspected it. When I finally got it, it had a "inspected by TSA label. I'm sure they were fascinated by the "how to fly a Learjet" training materials inside. I was coming back from training not too long after 9/11.
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I used to get these a lot, not so much in the past few years. Though not long ago I unpacked my bag only to find the laces on my running shows neatly tied. That gave me a good chuckle - I assume they ran out of tags. :rofl:
 
Phoenix said:
Well if you only employed white Americans at airports you'd close a whole bunch of likely security holes. Does Israel employ diversity in their security hiring?
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there are plenty of white crazies (speaking as a middle aged white guy). Some of them even post on aviation boards:eek:
 
rocketflyer84 said:
Do I believe there are things we could/should do to increase security? Yes.

Do I have confidence in our government and its agencies to achieve that and not just waste a bunch of taxpayer funds for more "security theatre" or otherwise just screw it up (see TSA audit showing that they were literally completely useless in detecting intentionally hidden stuff)? Hell no.
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But you must remember that at the time of 9-11 the airlines themselves were responsible for their security. Bush introduced the government tsa as the airlines said they did not have the money. This is probably true as the government has had to bail them out repeatedly with the airline CEOs and bankruptcy lawyers taking millions. Big ripoff.
 
Serendipity strikes again:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/11/0...ops-knife-attack-on-california-school-campus/

The student who stabbed four people on the campus of UC Merced was identified Thursday as 18-year-old Faisal Mohammad from Santa Clara, Calif., the university confirms to Fox News.

Even Fox was careful not to ascribe a motive, or even mention Faisal's religion. Wink, wind, nod, nod. Gee, it's almost like - I don't know, another voice of debate and critical thinking is being -- silenced. Hmmmmm.
 
Kritchlow said:
Old news..
Please keep in mind a couple of things.
They were trying to slip by sophisticated stuff that the bad guys have not yet dreamed of.
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Pffft.


http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...-teams-cracked-tsa-security-in-recent-report/
The investigators who were able to smuggle mock explosives and guns through TSA nearly 96 percent of the time were auditors who did not have specialized training, John Roth, the Inspector General of the Department of Homeland Security, testified before the Senate Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee Tuesday...

“TSA’s recent 96 percent failure rate was not the result of sophisticated, so-called ‘Red Teams.’
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45,000 screeners and $4.6 Billion in budget, and this organization can't catch the basic stuff thrown at them by office employees.
 
I fly allot and have a stack of those "inspected by..." cards from TSA. If I were in charge of airline security, I would enforce the carry on bag size limit; section off each gate so the passengers enter a holding area like many international flights and then line everyone up with their bags and have the dogs (drug, explosive, other) come through and check everyone. If your religion or whatever else can't handle this then come early and ask for a strip search.
 
Kritchlow said:
Old news..
Please keep in mind a couple of things.
They were trying to slip by sophisticated stuff that the bad guys have not yet dreamed of.
Also remember the deterrent effect of the TSA.

Regardless, this thread is not meant to be about the effectiveness of current TSA procedures. It's about what we should do in order to counteract recent threats.
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Wrong. Reports say it was basically just random people at the agency given conventional stuff to take though security and the TSA missed it almost every time. That's totally not surprising for anyone that understand security and knows that most of what they're doing is just "security theatre." Obviously the TSA wasn't happy those stats leaked.
 
One of them actually tried to unscrew my CO2 cart from the scuba BC again. And, once again I had to explain their own rules to them. Also tried to confiscate my 6" adj wrench for no reason. Thieves. Just flat out thieves.
 
Phoenix said:
What do the Israeli's do? Do we have the ability and will to do the same?
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Good intel, sophisticated profiling, high-quality, motivated people in security, etc.

Honestly, it's not like it's a big problem. Airliners aren't raining down from these kinds of acts.

It's gonna happen every now and then. Basically, most of the world shouldn't be in a hurry to change much, unless the count goes up. Don't worry, the hysteria over a few in a row will force the pols to way over-react.
 
Kritchlow said:
I know many here despise the TSA. That's all well and good, but with the latest A321 Russian airliner theory, should we just sit back and continue the status quo? Should we increase security (read liquids, shoes...)

I know many here hate security and believe it's useless, but in your opinion what should we do here? In my opinion it's just a matter of time before the "bad guys" try to sneak a bomb on a US carrier.
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We should use profiling. 90 year old grandmothers with knitting needles are not a threat to aircraft security. 25 year old bald Muslim men in groups are.

But we only have to use profiling because we won't go after the root cause - like guns, this is a cultural problem where a culture endorses violence. It doesn't matter how much we check, if someone wants to do violence, they will find a way.

Prevention is nice, but I think preparing people to move on after such an event is equally important. What if an airliner blew up and we didn't have the news media wringing their hands for months on end over it? What if 9-11 happened and we all got back on airplanes the next day and went on with business? That doesn't mean we don't show respect for victims, but let's face it - they were unlucky targets of someone who intended to hurt us. If we weren't hurt then would they have the same interest in attacking? If we all picked up the pieces and quickly moved on with life, what do they gain?

Doesn't matter, asking too much there.
 
bflynn said:
Prevention is nice, but I think preparing people to move on after such an event is equally important. What if an airliner blew up and we didn't have the news media wringing their hands for months on end over it? What if 9-11 happened and we all got back on airplanes the next day and went on with business? That doesn't mean we don't show respect for victims, but let's face it - they were unlucky targets of someone who intended to hurt us. If we weren't hurt then would they have the same interest in attacking? If we all picked up the pieces and quickly moved on with life, what do they gain?

Doesn't matter, asking too much there.
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I made a similar argument the day 9/11 happened. My suggestion was a bit - oh robbing of the 1st amendment - but my suggestion was to step in, gag order the news crews, and not report it at all. Don't give the terr'ists the satisfaction of causing an 'emergency' Just go on like nothing happened. Would have completely neutralized their intent.
 
EdFred said:
I made a similar argument the day 9/11 happened. My suggestion was a bit - oh robbing of the 1st amendment - but my suggestion was to step in, gag order the news crews, and not report it at all. Don't give the terr'ists the satisfaction of causing an 'emergency' Just go on like nothing happened. Would have completely neutralized their intent.
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There have been some non/under reported 'incidents' that were handled as such.
 
Bob Noel said:
90 year old grandmothers with knitting needles are a threat?

really?
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Frazier Glenn Miller was a 74 year old grandfather.

That grandmother could be smuggling the knitting needles for her son / grandson.

Really.

The whole "terrorists are Muslims" concept is contradicted by the actual data.

Sorry, but that's just the way that it is.
 
Yeah, I just love how having me empty my pockets, take off my shoes and belt and then walk through a fancy machine is supposed to keep me from doing harm to an airplane. Meanwhile all I need to do to get into the SIDA is to show the guard at the gate my ID and then drive our company van full of boxes, tools and various liquids without it being searched onto the ramp and next to an airliner. The number of people who have this sort of access at every major airport would blow the mind of the average person especially if they were to meet some of these folks. But hey, if the TSA wants to grope little old ladies so they can fly home for the holidays, let them have it. I'm sure it helps with their self esteem and helps them get past being fired from McDonalds or Walmart.
 
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
The whole "terrorists are Muslims" concept is contradicted by the actual data.

Sorry, but that's just the way that it is.
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Sorry but that is because they have cooked your nuts by thinkspeaking terrorism to include individual acts of violence. Terrorism is violence inspired by religion or politics and those boys be muslims. Religion of peace:rofl:
 
Phoenix said:
Sorry but that is because they have cooked your nuts by thinkspeaking terrorism to include individual acts of violence. Terrorism is violence inspired by religion or politics and those boys be muslims. Religion of peace:rofl:
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Oh, OK

Bombing abortion clinics because of your religious beliefs isn't terrorism.
Anti government bombings aren't terrorism because they are not inspired by your politics.
Shooting up a place of worship isn't terrorism as long as the shooter is a white Christian.
Shooting a bunch of people is terrorism if you just happen to be a Muslim.

Yea, I get it.

:nonod:
 
Paraphrasing what the IRA once said after they nearly got Margaret Thatcher, “She has to be lucky all the time, we only have to be lucky once”

We will never have 100% security when it comes to air travel, TSA is window dressing and 65% of the time, useless.
 
Our enemy is fighting an all out offensive war, and we are fighting a limited defensive war. Doing this, we cannot win and probably shouldn't waste a cent more trying.
 
If you're the sort that wants total control over your checked luggage, unloaded firearms are quite effective as tools to keep your luggage locked and nobody having legal access other than you.

http://deviating.net/firearms/packing/

If you're not the firearms sort, starter pistols and flare guns serve the same legal purpose.
 
Not too long ago I was watching an episode of air crash investigation where they mentioned development of baggage/cargo containers that would mitigate/contain a small bomb well enough to protect the aircraft. They were not implemented due to cost.

These things exist apparently. Is security that important or isn't it? I don't see any realistic way they're going to do better than even the pre 9/11 screenings but if passengers on the aircraft won't let themselves be hijacked and bombs won't do anything then it's not a problem anymore.
 
denverpilot said:
If you're the sort that wants total control over your checked luggage, unloaded firearms are quite effective as tools to keep your luggage locked and nobody having legal access other than you.

http://deviating.net/firearms/packing/

If you're not the firearms sort, starter pistols and flare guns serve the same legal purpose.
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I do this anytime I need to check a bag, which isn't too often. The only downside is of course, the baggage fees imposed. I try to go SWA when I check bags. Since it's not 100% foolproof(nothing is). The only time I had trouble was going through LGA with firearms in a checked bag a few years back. The TSA guy at the scanner had me unlock it, and he was looking around, then he grabbed the pistol, and the clip and inserted it. I immediately asked for a badged airport LEO, and he quickly took it out and put my stuff back.
 
Here we go...looks like they've moved on to hardening the entire hold not just making containers.
https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/news/nr/bomb-proof-fly-bag-1.483527

If we're serious enough about security to make people take off their shoes and throw away their toothpaste surely we're serious enough to spend the money to actually harden the aircraft... right?

Although honestly given the rate of actual attacks and the percentage of those that actually succeed I'm totally comfy with not doing anything. The odds of being in a regular accident are far far higher and those don't stop most of us.
 
Wouldn't it be safer if every airliner and flight crew were Cat IIIc qualified?

Then why aren't they?
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Our enemy is fighting an all out offensive war, and we are fighting a limited defensive war. Doing this, we cannot win and probably shouldn't waste a cent more trying.
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This is my humble opinion also.

Security is the airlines job, not the federal government's.
We could have taken the 9/11 hit, paid the survivors their benefits, and taken the losses of several aircraft, and proven it will not effect us. rather than pay the cost of the Patriot act.

Which IMHO was the largest grab of civil liberties in our country's history.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Bush introduced the government tsa as the airlines said they did not have the money.
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You need to double-check your memory on that. The Republicans wanted to maintain private security security screening with higher standards. The Democrats wanted airport security brought in as a government function.

bflynn said:
We should use profiling. 90 year old grandmothers with knitting needles are not a threat to aircraft security.
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We do use profiling. Seniors, 75 years old or older as well as children, qualify for expedited screening. Also, knitting needles are allowed in carry on baggage.

Bob Noel said:
Wouldn't it be safer if every airliner and flight crew were Cat IIIc qualified?
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Safer? No.

CAT II/III authorization improves dispatch and completion rates, it doesn't increase safety. A non-CAT II/III crew/aircraft simply can't depart/start the approach when conditions are CAT II/III.
 
profiling is of limited use, it assumes that all terrorists are of a certain color or race or whatever .... and the "bad" guys know it so they recruit someone to their cause that does not match the typical profile
 
Scrabo said:
profiling is of limited use, it assumes that all terrorists are of a certain color or race or whatever .... and the "bad" guys know it so they recruit someone to their cause that does not match the typical profile
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The only blank slate is some people's minds. Stereotypes- truer then anything else social science has ever claimed-> Proof
Keep an open mind now...:lol:
 
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