bgdriveway
Pre-takeoff checklist
If you want to know if he lied to the AME, get a copy of the medical form filled out that the AME signed. That's pretty easy if you tell the kid upfront that you need that in this case and he should leave the Dr. office with a copy for you to see.
Also, most kids diagnosed with ADD/ADHD are typically young boys who want to run around all day and don't want to sit still. Why is the ADD diagnosis rate so much higher in the US? It could be a legit diagnosis, it could be something that was a convenient diagnosis. Let the ME system sort it out, and find a good doctor to see what he can do to help. If I had gone to a normal school, who knows whether some teacher would wanted to deal with me. I was all over the place. Even as a senior in college if I wasn't playing ball or something, I couldn't sit still in class. But I can also intensely focus if I decide I need to, and I can fly/drive for a lot longer periods than most people I talk to.
There are other things in the world to do as well. What about all the guys that want to fly, but eyes are too bad, etc. Not trying to say don't help him learn to fly, but being an A&P has been one of the better career things I have done.
Also, most kids diagnosed with ADD/ADHD are typically young boys who want to run around all day and don't want to sit still. Why is the ADD diagnosis rate so much higher in the US? It could be a legit diagnosis, it could be something that was a convenient diagnosis. Let the ME system sort it out, and find a good doctor to see what he can do to help. If I had gone to a normal school, who knows whether some teacher would wanted to deal with me. I was all over the place. Even as a senior in college if I wasn't playing ball or something, I couldn't sit still in class. But I can also intensely focus if I decide I need to, and I can fly/drive for a lot longer periods than most people I talk to.
There are other things in the world to do as well. What about all the guys that want to fly, but eyes are too bad, etc. Not trying to say don't help him learn to fly, but being an A&P has been one of the better career things I have done.
pilot_dude
En-Route
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2010
- Messages
- 2,793
- Display Name
Display name:
pilot_dude
You do that with some regularity when faced with an opposing view.
As long as you have disclosed the situation to them, I see no issue in teaching the kid to fly, just don't solo him.
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
That is possible, but whether it is or not is beyond the ability of any instructor I know (except maybe Bruce Chien, MD, CFI) to determine. That means the instructor involved must respect that medical professional's judgment until that judgment is proven incorrect via the FAA protocol for evaluating anyone with that diagnosis in their past. If it's concealed from the instructor, that's one thing, but in this case, the OP knows about it, and that's when integrity (the title of this thread) comes into play.
Yes, I agree...far beyond the ability of the CFI...as it should be...
At this point, there is no AME or FAA judgement...there have been a shopping cart full of posts pointing the CFI/Dad/Young buck to go at this the right way...I'll pile on that one as well...
Past that, the OP can train the kid right up to solo...but no solo...he can train past solo and do cross countries and check ride prep and all sorts of doo-dads but the kid is prohibited from doing ONE THING and ONE THING only (correct?)
...flying solo...
They have two years...jiminy crickets...I say burn some Avgas...let the dad soak in this while his boy has fun and brother earns a few bucks. Kid should be sharp as a briar come check ride/solo time...
One man's opinion...
At this point, there is no AME or FAA judgement...there have been a shopping cart full of posts pointing the CFI/Dad/Young buck to go at this the right way...I'll pile on that one as well...
Past that, the OP can train the kid right up to solo...but no solo...he can train past solo and do cross countries and check ride prep and all sorts of doo-dads but the kid is prohibited from doing ONE THING and ONE THING only (correct?)
...flying solo...
They have two years...jiminy crickets...I say burn some Avgas...let the dad soak in this while his boy has fun and brother earns a few bucks. Kid should be sharp as a briar come check ride/solo time...
One man's opinion...
That's really the crux of it at this point. He can put 1500 hrs of training on the kid and have him ready to pass an ATP ride, he just can't solo the kid. Until the kid and dad actually lie to the AME and get the kid a medical under false pretense, as long as he provides accurate information to the dad as to what will be involved in getting a medical and the possibility that it may not happen, there is no integrity issue.
redtail
En-Route
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2011
- Messages
- 4,408
- Location
- 93 million miles from the sun
- Display Name
Display name:
Redtail
But then how will young buck deal with the let-down after going through all of that and being told "you can't solo", "you'll never be able to fly as PIC"?
He might feel betrayed knowing that dad and uncle knew this all along. I'd feel horrible if I brought a kid up to the mountaintop just to dash his hopes and dreams.
Integrity
I'm in the camp that says, deal with this NOW, not later.
Edit: I have a son diagnosed ADD/ADHD and I'd never do that to him
Last edited:
Why not be straight up with the kid as well?
redtail
En-Route
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2011
- Messages
- 4,408
- Location
- 93 million miles from the sun
- Display Name
Display name:
Redtail
If you are asking me how I would deal with it? I agree with you...I would have already had all of this crap out in the open...in a New York minute...tell the young buck the truth...
The thing about the truth is you only have to tell it one time.
I'll bet the boy would still want to fly...
The thing about the truth is you only have to tell it one time.
I'll bet the boy would still want to fly...
But then how will young buck deal with the let-down after going through all of that and being told "you can't solo", "you'll never be able to fly as PIC"?
He might feel betrayed knowing that dad and uncle knew this all along. I'd feel horrible if I brought a kid up to the mountaintop just to dash his hopes and dreams.
Integrity
I'm in the camp that says, deal with this NOW, not later.
Edit: I have a son diagnosed ADD/ADHD and I'd never do that to him
redtail
En-Route
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2011
- Messages
- 4,408
- Location
- 93 million miles from the sun
- Display Name
Display name:
Redtail
OK, in that case, we're in agreement. Guess I misunderstood what you were implying.
Yeah. We are in total agreement...as a matter of fact, you triggered me to rethink some of this...from the young bucks perspective...My point in post #47 was based on the possibility that the diagnosis might turn out to be incorrect...
I put myself in the boy's position and tried to think this through...it would be a tremendous let down...these types of situations are complicated...
this one for sure with the dynamic between the brothers and the medical situation.
docmirror
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2007
- Messages
- 12,008
- Display Name
Display name:
Cowboy - yeehah!
next problem you run into is you can't 'unknow' something. If the kid goes to another CFI and the father/son combo has violated the regs on reporting the condition, diagnosis, and treatment there's an obligation involved in the fellow CFI, and the pilot population in general.
Unlike the prev guy who's been a left stick for years, and is making his living as a pro with a 9 year history, we've got a buck who wants to go the whole way, and his parents have thus-far hamstrung him with their ADD/ADHD crap. In this case, I would tell the father in very clear and unambiguous terms of the deal. Kid gets off the meds, kid get a re-eval at whatever cost, kid gets a valid legal medical, goes on to take flight training, and applies for college, then flight school in the AF if he wants.
I don't know if a prev diagnosis of ADD/ADHD is disqual right now for armed forces flight, but sure as heck they are going to be seeing a metric buttload of candidates they are washing out coming down the pike. Drs are giving out the ADD/ADHD cure like candy at a birthday party. The armed forces might choose to re-eval their denial of prev conditions like AD/ADHD because there are some pretty clear signs that the same qualities that make a kid hyper, are the same kind of qualities the AF and Navy aviation look for in candidates. Aggressive, gung-ho, and ability to think fast. Of course it all has to be focused and managed.
YMMV
Unitedcap
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2014
- Messages
- 29
- Display Name
Display name:
Unitedcap
Don't let captainrick scare or discourage you. I've flow with the large airlines for 20yrs. I know guys that have been diagnosed with adhd who have both disclosed and not disclosed. You would be shocked at what some of the "pros" don't disclose. If you disclose there will be an extensive testing session which will be expensive. If he can prove that he can function without meds it will not be an issue, just time consuming and expensive. If he doesn't disclose the chances of the faa every finding out are slim to non. I've worked with the ntsb on accidents. The only time they pull records is if there is an accident and we discover medication in the blood that wasn't listed on the medical, or it is an apparent suicide. Child hood records are EXTREMELY difficult to get a hold of as well.
I've flown with guys who have heart issues, depression, alcoholism, you name it. I've even flown with a guy that had a past history of meth addiction, and eventually got his job back. If you act as his CFi it is your responsibility that you have given him gods blessing that he will not go out and hurt someone. If you feel comfortable with his attention in the air and response to challenges than you have done your job. Sometimes accidents happen and it is out of the control of the CFI. You are not his doctor or medical advisor, like I said your job is to ensure he is safe in the air.
I hear people comment that people with add/adhd cannot and should not be trusted in the air. This is as far from the truth as it gets, some of the best pilots I've had the privilege to fly with were adhd. They would jump from task to task proficiently and ensure everything was right on.
I know people who have worked with dr. Bruce. He is not my first choice. From what I hear he can be a little arrogant. There are a ton of great AMEs out there. Jetcareers has a great forum and flight surgeon.
If he wants to be "honorable" and I use that term very loosely he can report to faa, it will be a headache however very doable. If he doesn't want to, the only time he will be caught is most likely if he is killed in an accident, and that's if they find suspicious medication in the blood. In 90% of situations out there the FAA IS NOT YOUR FRIEND. They are an old outdated administration that needs a major overhaul.
Oh yeah and to add something another way the faa looks into things is through disability bills, if your 14 yr old nephew is claiming disability it could be an issue.
I've flown with guys who have heart issues, depression, alcoholism, you name it. I've even flown with a guy that had a past history of meth addiction, and eventually got his job back. If you act as his CFi it is your responsibility that you have given him gods blessing that he will not go out and hurt someone. If you feel comfortable with his attention in the air and response to challenges than you have done your job. Sometimes accidents happen and it is out of the control of the CFI. You are not his doctor or medical advisor, like I said your job is to ensure he is safe in the air.
I hear people comment that people with add/adhd cannot and should not be trusted in the air. This is as far from the truth as it gets, some of the best pilots I've had the privilege to fly with were adhd. They would jump from task to task proficiently and ensure everything was right on.
I know people who have worked with dr. Bruce. He is not my first choice. From what I hear he can be a little arrogant. There are a ton of great AMEs out there. Jetcareers has a great forum and flight surgeon.
If he wants to be "honorable" and I use that term very loosely he can report to faa, it will be a headache however very doable. If he doesn't want to, the only time he will be caught is most likely if he is killed in an accident, and that's if they find suspicious medication in the blood. In 90% of situations out there the FAA IS NOT YOUR FRIEND. They are an old outdated administration that needs a major overhaul.
Oh yeah and to add something another way the faa looks into things is through disability bills, if your 14 yr old nephew is claiming disability it could be an issue.
U
Unregistered
Guest
Unfortuantly I have to post as unregistered since the moderator is acting like the FAA in approving my account (SLLLLOOOW)
The reason Im posting is because I'm tired of reading post from people who think they know all and try telling you what's right or wrong.
Don't let Ron scare or intimate you. I have flown for the big airlines for more then 20yrs. You would be shocked at how many pilots don't disclose information on there medicals. I'm not condoning it, however, I'm saying it happens and frequently. Don't let people try to scare you into saying the FAA will absolutely find out. In all reality, the FAA will most likely never find out. Even when you have an accident, the only time the FAA and really NTSB pulls past medical data is if the pilot is incapacitated during the incident, I.E lost off consciousness in flight, or they test and find medication in the blood, that should not be there. I Know this because i worked with the NTSB and FAA in accident investigation. I would honestly say about 1/3 of the pilots i have flown with have not disclosed a condition that could be Dqing on there medical. The medical standards are absolutely ridiculous. Another way the FAA could find out about it is if he ever suffers an injury and they disclose to the ER doctor that he is ADHD and the FAA needs those documents for some reason, or if he is receiving government benefits with respect to his condition
Your job as a cfi is to ensure that the pilot can safely operate the aircraft, not to be his medical adviser. In fact, that is not your job at all. People who say that it is your job are trying to butt their nose into business that doesn't concern them. If you can determine that the student is not becoming distracted in flight and is safely operating the aircraft, as a CFI, that is good enough.
If he does choose to disclose, that's his choice, but it will be extremely expensive and time consuming. He may not even be issued, although he most likely would unless the condition is severe.
A lot of the time children have trouble in school because they are studying subjects that just do not interest them, if aviation interests him the ground portion should be no issue.
I here a lot of people on this site reccomend Dr. Bruce. He is good, however, be advised he is very arrogant. I have co-workers that have worked with him and they will attest to that. There are a ton of extremely good AMEs out there, Dr. Bruce is just one of them.
The reason Im posting is because I'm tired of reading post from people who think they know all and try telling you what's right or wrong.
Don't let Ron scare or intimate you. I have flown for the big airlines for more then 20yrs. You would be shocked at how many pilots don't disclose information on there medicals. I'm not condoning it, however, I'm saying it happens and frequently. Don't let people try to scare you into saying the FAA will absolutely find out. In all reality, the FAA will most likely never find out. Even when you have an accident, the only time the FAA and really NTSB pulls past medical data is if the pilot is incapacitated during the incident, I.E lost off consciousness in flight, or they test and find medication in the blood, that should not be there. I Know this because i worked with the NTSB and FAA in accident investigation. I would honestly say about 1/3 of the pilots i have flown with have not disclosed a condition that could be Dqing on there medical. The medical standards are absolutely ridiculous. Another way the FAA could find out about it is if he ever suffers an injury and they disclose to the ER doctor that he is ADHD and the FAA needs those documents for some reason, or if he is receiving government benefits with respect to his condition
Your job as a cfi is to ensure that the pilot can safely operate the aircraft, not to be his medical adviser. In fact, that is not your job at all. People who say that it is your job are trying to butt their nose into business that doesn't concern them. If you can determine that the student is not becoming distracted in flight and is safely operating the aircraft, as a CFI, that is good enough.
If he does choose to disclose, that's his choice, but it will be extremely expensive and time consuming. He may not even be issued, although he most likely would unless the condition is severe.
A lot of the time children have trouble in school because they are studying subjects that just do not interest them, if aviation interests him the ground portion should be no issue.
I here a lot of people on this site reccomend Dr. Bruce. He is good, however, be advised he is very arrogant. I have co-workers that have worked with him and they will attest to that. There are a ton of extremely good AMEs out there, Dr. Bruce is just one of them.
Kiddo's Driver
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2013
- Messages
- 1,526
- Location
- Somewhere in the Southeast
- Display Name
Display name:
Jim
The FAA is VERY clear on what it takes to clear past use of ADD/ADHD meds. Assuming you can function without them it is just a day of testing and less than $1,000 to the doc doing the eval, plus a drug test.
My testing was two sessions, about 3-4 hours each back in 2009. It cost me about $600. Dr. Bethany Lohr did the testing.
http://www.healthgrades.com/provider/bethany-lohr-gj77x
If the kid is really off of the meds then he should do the right thing and clear up the issue. It is not that big of a deal!
Jim
My testing was two sessions, about 3-4 hours each back in 2009. It cost me about $600. Dr. Bethany Lohr did the testing.
http://www.healthgrades.com/provider/bethany-lohr-gj77x
If the kid is really off of the meds then he should do the right thing and clear up the issue. It is not that big of a deal!
Jim
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
Not if you know that person lies to the FAA about his/her medical condition. That tells you the person cannot be trusted to play by the rules, and I'm not trusting that person to fly on my signature. I don't care how many years you or that person has flown with the airlines -- the issue is what the title of this thread says -- INTEGRITY. Either you've got it or you don't. And from his last posts, I think the OP has it.
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
I'm fine with "don't ask," but what if, as in the OP's case, you know?
So he's good but arrogant...
I have never met an airline pilot like THAT. 
Me...I am a Bruce Chien fanboy...
Now...on these other extremely good AME's...name names bro...
Are any of them going to counsel you to not mention your ADHD, because no one will ever find out?
Unitedcap
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2014
- Messages
- 29
- Display Name
Display name:
Unitedcap
From my understanding of the process, as long as you don't bring them the 8500 form, they aren't you AME, instead they are your doctor. Now say you get the problem dealt with by one of them, then if you choose to you can have them administer the evaluation and submit to FAA, I'd always ask before though.
Last edited:
Kiddo's Driver
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2013
- Messages
- 1,526
- Location
- Somewhere in the Southeast
- Display Name
Display name:
Jim
A link to what AOPA says about ADD/ADHD meds based on their interactions with the FAA:
http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources...nd-Conditions/Mental-Health/ADD-and-ADHD.aspx
My advice is that you DO NOT research the mechanics of each test. Knowing about what they test and how they do it will give skewed results. If the results are skewed the Doc will disqualify the test and you will have to take an alternate test, IF there is one available and it MAY cost a whole bunch more.
Jim
http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources...nd-Conditions/Mental-Health/ADD-and-ADHD.aspx
My advice is that you DO NOT research the mechanics of each test. Knowing about what they test and how they do it will give skewed results. If the results are skewed the Doc will disqualify the test and you will have to take an alternate test, IF there is one available and it MAY cost a whole bunch more.
Jim
Unitedcap
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2014
- Messages
- 29
- Display Name
Display name:
Unitedcap
No AME will ever recommend that, remember they pay the bills dealing with these issues, that doesn't change my argument that the FAA most likely will never find out.
Unitedcap
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2014
- Messages
- 29
- Display Name
Display name:
Unitedcap
The data on the AOPA website is actually out of date, they administer a different series of tests starting in 2012 from my understanding.
Kiddo's Driver
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2013
- Messages
- 1,526
- Location
- Somewhere in the Southeast
- Display Name
Display name:
Jim
I wonder what they are using now?
Google to the rescue!
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...ces/aam/ame/guide/dec_cons/disease_prot/adhd/
Jim
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
Does anyone remember the eastern captain who was finally caught after many years of safe flying in left seat who was found to have only a student ticket?! I'm sure, back in those days , the current Mental problems weren't even known much less reported. The eastern capt. Was caught, I think, by a computer records check or maybe by a check pilot. I think they allowed him to retire. Just imagine the lies told and log books doctored back then. And yes, doctor bruce is just one of many excellent aviation type doctors.
Last edited:
U
Unregistered
Guest
Going for your private pilot check ride with 12000hrs
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
IIRC, he had a Private, not Student. There was a time around 1963 or so when EAL was interviewing and hiring PP's, building their time to 250, then getting their CPL and putting them in as co-pilots. This guy's paperwork just fell through the cracks, apparently.
U
Unregistered
Guest
Jeeze any idea how long he stayed with the airline?
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
Long enough to make Captain (on an Electra, IIRC) before they discovered it.
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
As I recall he was caught close to retirement. I think they let him retire as planned. It was brought to my attention by a pal who used to fly for eastern and retired there. Ex navy P2V pilot who claimed they preferred navy pilots over all others.