Insurance for a new AP

Have fun trying to argue with a government lawyer or worse a county commissioner.

People who’ve never had to make an honest living. Good luck.

And you have identified the reason that some airports ask that those operating a business on their property being insured and/or naming the airport as a named insured. Because if there is an issue, the airport gets sued instead.

They’re idiots. Of course everyone in earshot and eyesight is always named in every lawsuit. Nothing new there.

Their defense is: “The FAA certifies mechanics and oversees their work, and the airport is not involved. In fact the FAA would be quite upset if we involved ourselves. Mechanics are the FAA’s jurisdiction. Perhaps the plaintiff should consider naming FAA in their lawsuit instead of us, Your Honor?”

And, they’re removed.

Airport Boards are so often such an amateur hour of wannabe politicians (who can’t hack even basic liability issues, let alone running businesses), this is what you get when the bottom of the political talent barrel holds jobs on them.

Our airport supposedly has a $200 annual fee for anyone doing business of any kind on the airport. Never seen anyone except businesses with an address on the field, pay it. The vast majority of airport users don’t even know it exists. I’d love to see them try to enforce it on a transient CFI who lands there during training for lunch. Utterly stupid. Just some harebrained fee nobody even knows or cares about.
 
This is a tough subject for me being an A&P and claims adjuster. Trust me, if an A&P incorrectly installs a part that leads to significant damage(100k plus) the insurance company who did pay the loss(usually the aircraft owner's) WILL come after you. If there is a death involved, you are ultimately liabile, and you don't have insurance, even the trailer you live in is fair game. The insurance company might not come after you for 100% of the loss if you don't have it, but they won't walk away from a big claim. The small stuff for $20k, maybe, but not the 6,7 figure claims.

Sure that chances of that happening are low for any given mechanic, but is DOES happen, I see it every day.
 
Sure that chances of that happening are low for any given mechanic, but is DOES happen, I see it every day.
If you see it every day, there must be a paper trail,, so show us.
 
Old fear tactic of insurance salesmen, doesn't happen in real life. If a Lawyer can't make 500 grand they won't bother.
The only one who can stop me from practicing my trade is the FAA. Even then, they can only revoke the A&P, 30 days later I can retake all the tests and start over.

Actually it is not a fear tactic. If you do maintence on aircraft, you have a high risk of being named in a suit. You may be eventually dropped from a suit and not pay a settlement, but it is going to cost you a lot in attorney fees even if you were not liable for anything.
 
Actually it is not a fear tactic. If you do maintence on aircraft, you have a high risk of being named in a suit. You may be eventually dropped from a suit and not pay a settlement, but it is going to cost you a lot in attorney fees even if you were not liable for anything.
And remember, you can be sued for anything.
 
We are actually addressing this contentious issue (yet again) at our airport. There appear to be several areas of potential exposure to consider: (1) bodily injury, (2) property damage, (3) completed operations, and (4) hangar keepers liability.

The most important of these from an airport operator's perspective is #1 and #2, bodily injury and property damage that occurs as a result of a maintenance operation by a contractor. We require our airport maintenance business to carry this coverage to limit exposure of the airport in the event of an claim. Contractors are expected to abide by the same rules. The issue for us is what amount of coverage and whether or not it is available/affordable. But the airport cannot be exposed. Hangar keepers liability is kept by the airport, and covers the airport in the event of say, a facility maintenance or failure claim resulting in damage to stored aircraft. (Say moving and airplane out of a hanger to make necessary repairs to the building.) Owners are also expected to carry their own liability coverage, and hull coverage is strongly recommended. (I'm not sure why anyone would go bare on hull, but go figure.)

The completed operations insurance is mainly for the protection of the contractor. That protects the contractor should his/her work result in an aircraft failure. That is of lesser concern to the airport operator.

If there is an incident of any sort at an airport or involving a plane based at the airport, everyone is likely to be sued, including the airport whether or not it is credibly liable. To be without liability protection would be quite foolish, and not responsible to the taxpayer. 99.99% of the time, everything is fine. Insurance is for the 0.01% of the time something very expensive and/or tragic happens. Everyone who has had an accident or incident thought it couldn't happen to them.
 
Airport Boards are so often such an amateur hour of wannabe politicians (who can’t hack even basic liability issues, let alone running businesses), this is what you get when the bottom of the political talent barrel holds jobs on them.

Airport boards or commissions can be quite variable, for sure. Some can be spectacularly inept. But many go out of their way to involve pilots, lawyers, an other useful experts who have organizational oversight experience from the non-profit, military, or business sector. No one on our airport commission (other than the ex officio municipal official who is responsible for managing the airport on top of her regular municipal job) gets paid a dime to serve. We do it for the love of aviation and the sustainability of an airport in our community. Making it work is a challenge, and the airport has cost the taxpayer hardly a nickel for more than a decade.

I heartily encourage pilots and those with flying and organizational management experience to get involved in your local airport governance. One can make things better. Such service is both rewarding and revealing...
 
The most inept Boards I’ve ever served on were full of fine upstanding professionals who’d never run a business in their lives. Like your list. Pilots and lawyers? LOL. Seriously. That’s almost a guarantee of death by committee.

Making it work is a challenge, and the airport has cost the taxpayer hardly a nickel for more than a decade.

Sounds like politician-speak. I’d love to see the balance sheet on that. Haven’t paved it in a few decades or what? No electric bill for the runway lights? I’m not buying that statement at all.
 
The most inept Boards I’ve ever served on were full of fine upstanding professionals who’d never run a business in their lives. Like your list. Pilots and lawyers? LOL. Seriously. That’s almost a guarantee of death by committee.

Sounds like politician-speak. I’d love to see the balance sheet on that. Haven’t paved it in a few decades or what? No electric bill for the runway lights? I’m not buying that statement at all.

Well, In the last decade, we repaved and lengthened a runway, added a taxiway, installed security fencing, added two sets of T-hangars, installed AWOS, commissioned some of the first LPV approaches in our region...I hope I'm not leaving anything out of that list. Scheduled on the AIP is a new GA ramp and a revamped terminal/maintenance building in the next few years. Last fiscal year the balance sheet showed a small surplus. Like almost every year before that in the last decade. Maybe we're doing it all wrong.

There are problem-finders, and problem-solvers. The world has too many of the former, and not enough of the latter.
 
Well, In the last decade, we repaved and lengthened a runway, added a taxiway, installed security fencing, added two sets of T-hangars, installed AWOS, commissioned some of the first LPV approaches in our region...I hope I'm not leaving anything out of that list. Scheduled on the AIP is a new GA ramp and a revamped terminal/maintenance building in the next few years. Last fiscal year the balance sheet showed a small surplus. Like almost every year before that in the last decade. Maybe we're doing it all wrong.

There are problem-finders, and problem-solvers. The world has too many of the former, and not enough of the latter.

And that was all free to the taxpayer? There was no input from the taxpayer to that balance sheet?
 
And that was all free to the taxpayer? There was no input from the taxpayer to that balance sheet?
Yep-per. We are currently generating enough income from fuel sales and hangar rentals, plus some miscellaneous income, to make ends meet and move capital projects forward. I'm looking at the 2018-2019 budget sheet and it shows zero interfund transfers for the last three years, and that has been typical. We are on the razor's edge, but making it work. We are the last, and only public-use airport in our county. All the others have gone belly-up.
 
Yep-per. We are currently generating enough income from fuel sales and hangar rentals, plus some miscellaneous income, to make ends meet and move capital projects forward. I'm looking at the 2018-2019 budget sheet and it shows zero interfund transfers for the last three years, and that has been typical. We are on the razor's edge, but making it work. We are the last, and only public-use airport in our county. All the others have gone belly-up.

That’s actually impressive. No Fed grants either?
 
That’s actually impressive. No Fed grants either?

Fed and state grants for eligible capital projects. Fed and state grants don't pay for operational or maintenance costs, of course, matching funds come from airport budget. Accumulating matching funds is the rate-limiting step for moving grant-eligible capital projects forward.
 
Fed and state grants for eligible capital projects. Fed and state grants don't pay for operational or maintenance costs, of course, matching funds come from airport budget. Accumulating matching funds is the rate-limiting step for moving grant-eligible capital projects forward.

Well there’s the rub. Grants aren’t free to the taxpayer. I didn’t think that original statement was accurate, and it wasn’t.

Grants aren’t free money, they’re mostly debt owed by the taxpayer. Tens of trillions of dollars of debt.
 
Well there’s the rub. Grants aren’t free to the taxpayer. I didn’t think that original statement was accurate, and it wasn’t.

Grants aren’t free money, they’re mostly debt owed by the taxpayer. Tens of trillions of dollars of debt.
ya but....it's OPM. :confused:
 
Well there’s the rub. Grants aren’t free to the taxpayer. I didn’t think that original statement was accurate, and it wasn’t.

Grants aren’t free money, they’re mostly debt owed by the taxpayer. Tens of trillions of dollars of debt.

So you are saying no one should accept federal or state airport improvement funds? Seriously? Nothing will satisfy you.
 
I have a friend who is looking to start up doing AP work at a nearby airport. The airport, is requiring liability insurance. The airport has been kinda vague about the specifics. But there is a new airport manager and he is following airport operating rules. Does anyone have any experience with this kind of thing?
It depends on a number of things but I would get a copy the airport's policies and read yourself before spending any money. Another item is whether he will be a freelance mechanic or a domiciled mechanic as in has a shop on the airport. Once he figures out where he stands then he can determine what insurance he wants to pursue. To many variables to offer anymore.
 
The newest ruling for many airports is, "These are aircraft storage hangars, there will be no maintenance done in these hangars".
 
So you are saying no one should accept federal or state airport improvement funds? Seriously? Nothing will satisfy you.

I didn’t say that. I said you lied when you said no taxpayer funds were utilized. Read carefully.
 
The newest ruling for many airports is, "These are aircraft storage hangars, there will be no maintenance done in these hangars".
Yes, I heard this too, from the airport manager as he was working on his homebuilt in the hangar next to mine.
 
Actually the airport manager is in a bind, caught between his desire to be one of the guys and the airport BOD. There is an old guy that is bored and just likes to stir the pot. He is an ex fighter jock that used to own the FBO. He likes to show that he was somebody by getting the board stirred up. Some Retired people have lots of time on their hands.
 
Actually, there is no insurance company that will write a policy for that, you must be an incorporated company.
So an LLC cannot get insurance? Of course they can.
 
Who's a LLC. most A&Ps aren't
I was addressing your "you must be an incorporated company" comment, of course. An LLC is not a corporation. But it takes about fifteen minutes in most states to become one, including getting a federal tax ID. All independents should spend the few bucks and few minutes to do so. The LLC stands for "Limited Liability Company", which may protect your assets if you haven't done anything deliberate that caused the event for which you are being sued. And then you can get liability insurance for your LLC. I'm not sure all insurers would require you to become an LLC, BTW. I know that I can get such insurance on myself, for commercial use of my tractor. But the liability is likely much less than an A&P, where simply not getting the old oil filter gasket off the engine has caused more than one plane to come down prematurely.
 
Everyone makes mistakes occasionally. I think it is extremely irresponsible of an A&P to not carry insurance. Someone that is hurt due to the A&p’s negligence might need the money to achieve a property recovery.

If your business does not make enough money to buy insurance, it is not a business.

Jim
 
Everyone makes mistakes occasionally. I think it is extremely irresponsible of an A&P to not carry insurance. Someone that is hurt due to the A&p’s negligence might need the money to achieve a property recovery.

If your business does not make enough money to buy insurance, it is not a business.

Jim
The best insurance any A&P can have is to choose their customers very carefully.
 
The best insurance any A&P can have is to choose their customers very carefully.
You can believe that all that you want, but that doesn't make it true. If one can pick and choose their customers, one likely makes enough money to buy liability insurance. If the best A&P is sued by the best customer, it will be costly, even if the mechanic is certain that they are not at fault. One can claim "I have no assets" as a reason to go bare, but in most cases, you'll have tools and a truck, and future earnings and assets which can be attached.
I wonder how many without insurance have actually requested a quote?
 
You can believe that all that you want, but that doesn't make it true. If one can pick and choose their customers, one likely makes enough money to buy liability insurance. If the best A&P is sued by the best customer, it will be costly, even if the mechanic is certain that they are not at fault. One can claim "I have no assets" as a reason to go bare, but in most cases, you'll have tools and a truck, and future earnings and assets which can be attached.
I wonder how many without insurance have actually requested a quote?
My EX-wife got every thing, I own nothing, so sue me. my Ex beat you to it.
 
My EX-wife got every thing, I own nothing, so sue me. my Ex beat you to it.
So you are an A&P that owns no tools, no car, no truck, no furniture, and no potential of future earnings? Oh, and no insurance?
 
So you are an A&P that owns no tools, no car, no truck, no furniture, and no potential of future earnings? Oh, and no insurance?
Yep, every thing is rented, borrowed, or
 
A couple comments: Considering I purchased freelance mechanic insurance for 30+ years, there a few items a number of people fail to consider or don’t know about this issue.

First, aviation insurance and general business insurance are two separate markets. I own two entities, one aviation and one non-aviation. I have (had) two separate policies, from two separate underwriters. Prior to my retirement, the aviation policy cost $11,435.00 per year and the non policy cost $1950.00 for the same $1M liability coverage.

I was fortunate that I had a good day job with a flexible schedule that allowed me to pursue the freelance work and provided a financial cushion. Full-time one man ops weren’t so lucky and increased insurance costs over the years put them out of business as it is hard to turn a profit when one overhead bill consumes 40% of your gross income. And when most mechanics try to charge a livable wage based on 12 to 15% net profit, they get accused of padding the bill or trying to pay for the new boat, as mentioned in a number of posts on this site.

25 years ago there were 20+ underwriters that wrote freelance mechanic policies, e.g., liability insurance only and it was reasonable. Then in the 90s it started a downturn. That is when you saw the one man shops, machines shops, and mom/pop engine shops close simply because the number of underwriters that wrote aircraft mx policies drop to less than 10 or 12 and the prices went up—double in some cases.

The remaining shops who could keep above water picked up the new work opportunities and grew. Most grew big enough to self-insurance themselves for the 1st 1M or more.

The cost increase didn’t hit me right away, but my policy holder reduced the types of maintenance I could perform under the policy. Mainly engine work except for accessory replacement. Guess what most of my work was… As I switched carriers (sometimes with no choice) my insurance options went down and my costs went up to finally on my last policy, my provider could only find 2 underwriters that would write a freelance mechanic policy. One declined coverage but the other offered one provided it was a “hangar keepers” policy which provide coverage for liability, fueling storage/refueling, and aircraft storage. Problem was I could never claim jack on 2/3rds of the coverage I was paying for.

As for the comments referring to business and insurance, today for a new guy he can see the costs vs profit of insurance going in and decide if he wants to have a go at it. It’s the #1 issue when starting a mechanic business especially out in BFE with limited customers. However, for the guy who’s been in business for 20+ years or took over his dad’s shop what is he going to do? Quit at 50 and work at McD’s. I know a few that I help out when they get swamped. And no I don’t charge them for my time.

And whether a mechanic can get a policy under his name or if he needs a registered entity like an LLC that is an internal item to the specific underwriter. I’ve done it both ways. The LLCs, INCs are there to provide a barrier for you, not the insurance provider. If you look on any filed claimant the insurance company(s) is always listed as a separate defendant(s).

On the lawsuit comments, it depends on the State you live in. A number of States do not permit the seizure of a person’s principal domicile, retirement funds, principal means of income, etc from civil actions. Just ask OJ. Also, contrary to what a number of people believe, attorneys follow the big money and not the little guy. There’s no payout. If all you have is a poor mechanic with no insurance to sue, you’ll be amazed how difficult it will be to retain an attorney on contingency. Now if you want to personally shell out $50K+ have at it. But don’t plan to get your investment back.

Granted, this comment was only about freelance ops. Rates are cheaper if you have a domiciled shop, but with a shop comes another round of overhead costs. However, since I retired I carry no insurance. I still help out some old friends and customers but I select who I do what for, just as was mentioned above. But then again everyone is entitled to their opinion…
 
A couple comments: Considering I purchased freelance mechanic insurance for 30+ years, there a few items a number of people fail to consider or don’t know about this issue.

First, aviation insurance and general business insurance are two separate markets. I own two entities, one aviation and one non-aviation. I have (had) two separate policies, from two separate underwriters. Prior to my retirement, the aviation policy cost $11,435.00 per year and the non policy cost $1950.00 for the same $1M liability coverage.

I was fortunate that I had a good day job with a flexible schedule that allowed me to pursue the freelance work and provided a financial cushion. Full-time one man ops weren’t so lucky and increased insurance costs over the years put them out of business as it is hard to turn a profit when one overhead bill consumes 40% of your gross income. And when most mechanics try to charge a livable wage based on 12 to 15% net profit, they get accused of padding the bill or trying to pay for the new boat, as mentioned in a number of posts on this site.

25 years ago there were 20+ underwriters that wrote freelance mechanic policies, e.g., liability insurance only and it was reasonable. Then in the 90s it started a downturn. That is when you saw the one man shops, machines shops, and mom/pop engine shops close simply because the number of underwriters that wrote aircraft mx policies drop to less than 10 or 12 and the prices went up—double in some cases.

The remaining shops who could keep above water picked up the new work opportunities and grew. Most grew big enough to self-insurance themselves for the 1st 1M or more.

The cost increase didn’t hit me right away, but my policy holder reduced the types of maintenance I could perform under the policy. Mainly engine work except for accessory replacement. Guess what most of my work was… As I switched carriers (sometimes with no choice) my insurance options went down and my costs went up to finally on my last policy, my provider could only find 2 underwriters that would write a freelance mechanic policy. One declined coverage but the other offered one provided it was a “hangar keepers” policy which provide coverage for liability, fueling storage/refueling, and aircraft storage. Problem was I could never claim jack on 2/3rds of the coverage I was paying for.

As for the comments referring to business and insurance, today for a new guy he can see the costs vs profit of insurance going in and decide if he wants to have a go at it. It’s the #1 issue when starting a mechanic business especially out in BFE with limited customers. However, for the guy who’s been in business for 20+ years or took over his dad’s shop what is he going to do? Quit at 50 and work at McD’s. I know a few that I help out when they get swamped. And no I don’t charge them for my time.

And whether a mechanic can get a policy under his name or if he needs a registered entity like an LLC that is an internal item to the specific underwriter. I’ve done it both ways. The LLCs, INCs are there to provide a barrier for you, not the insurance provider. If you look on any filed claimant the insurance company(s) is always listed as a separate defendant(s).

On the lawsuit comments, it depends on the State you live in. A number of States do not permit the seizure of a person’s principal domicile, retirement funds, principal means of income, etc from civil actions. Just ask OJ. Also, contrary to what a number of people believe, attorneys follow the big money and not the little guy. There’s no payout. If all you have is a poor mechanic with no insurance to sue, you’ll be amazed how difficult it will be to retain an attorney on contingency. Now if you want to personally shell out $50K+ have at it. But don’t plan to get your investment back.

Granted, this comment was only about freelance ops. Rates are cheaper if you have a domiciled shop, but with a shop comes another round of overhead costs. However, since I retired I carry no insurance. I still help out some old friends and customers but I select who I do what for, just as was mentioned above. But then again everyone is entitled to their opinion…

To comment on a couple points you've made.

In the last ten years I've noted that in my immediate area the 5 A&P-IAs working have dropped to 1, reason = start up costs insurance being the biggest.
 
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