Insurance anyone?

[Iceman]

I just thought I would start a thread on how many people use/value aircraft insurance. I have noticed lately that a lot of people I talk to are not covered by any insurance at all when they are flying. Usually the people that I talk with are renters or own a cheaper aircraft.



Even more disturbing, many of these people do not have any liability insurance either.



I have historically purchased flying insurance from avemco for renter liability only since the planes I rent have a $1000 limit on damage responsibility and I can cover that in a worst case scenario.



How many of you are flying without any insurance and don’t think it’s necessary?



How many have just liability coverage to protect yourself and family?



How many have the mother load and are prepared for the worst case scenario?



What is everyone’s opinion on insurance costs in general? Too expensive? Not enough coverage? Insurance only for bad pilots?

 

[AdamZ]

Chris most if not all of the policies I've been qouted for renters require that to get coverage for damage you also must carry liability of something like 25Kpp /50K per accident

 

[Iceman]

Chris most if not all of the policies I've been qouted for renters require that to get coverage for damage you also must carry liability of something like 25Kpp /50K per accident

Yep thats what I have found too (how it should be in my opinion).

I'm not sure if I stated it well above...the three choices being- no insurance, liability only, or both liability and hull coverage.

 

[EdFred]

$1M liability.
$55k hull damage
$0 deductible - covers any movement.
I can land anywhere I want as long as it's legal.
last year was less than $1000 for the year.

 

[Iceman]

$1M liability.
$55k hull damage
$0 deductible - covers any movement.
I can land anywhere I want as long as it's legal.
last year was less than $1000 for the year.

That looks like a great price. Last year I paid 200 for liability only and I think that was for 25/500 coverage.

We need to meet sometime it looks like you have the area looked over for good deals. That and I live like 17 miles from Hastings.[font=&quot][/font]

 

[kath]

I have AOPA renters insurance. But when I move to Alaska, their rates are going to go way up! Grrrr!!!
--Kath

 

[Bonanza]

I just got my renewal quote yesterday - about the same as last year.
$150k hull $1m smooth for $2500. Bonanza E33C.
Stephen.

 

[Kyle Thornley]

I've got the same thing as Ed, but my hull is $60K. Still under $1000, although the IR helped greatly. I don't think I would ever go 'naked', but everytime you write the check you still think 'hey this insurance stuff is just a racquet.' On the other had I did have the ELT stolen from my plane (Cherokee style drivers beware, real easy to get at) and the insurance co. replaced it no cost to me.

 

[gismo]

How many of you are flying without any insurance and don’t think it’s necessary?

I carry both liability and hull insurance on both planes I own. When I rented planes before owning, I never had any coverage, mistakenly thinking that the FBO's policy would cover me. I didn't have as much to lose then, but a loss and lack of affordable defense would have been a big problem.

Liability is actually required for aircraft owners by law in Minnesota, although I don't think they have any way to check.

How many have just liability coverage to protect yourself and family?

I know of several pilots who carry only liability insurance. Virtually all float plane owners I know are in that boat. Others who go without hull insurance tell me that they figure that if they manage to damage or destroy the plane, they deserve the consequences and would be OK losing the airplane. One thing they aren't considering is that the airplane can be lost or damaged in other ways than a direct result of their actions.

I've had two losses that would have fallen into that category, one when an uninsured airplane hit mine while parked (hand proped and got away) and one where an unknown person vandalized several planes at an FBO including mine which was in for it's annual. Each of those could have been a $10k-$20k hit to my pocket if I didn't have insurance.

How many have the mother load and are prepared for the worst case scenario?

???? If by that do you mean to ask if some owners are so rich that the loss of an airplane wouldn't be felt, I suspect the answer is generally no. If you have more money you probably own more expensive airplanes so the risk is about the same. One factor would be whether or not you owe money on the airplane, in which case you'd not only lose the airplane but would also have to come up with the loan value assuming the loan was secured by the plane.

What is everyone’s opinion on insurance costs in general? Too expensive? Not enough coverage? Insurance only for bad pilots?

It costs more than I like, but it does seem in line with the exposure. Remember that premiums are based on the underwriter's investment returns as much as their loss payouts so when the economy sucks, premiums get raised.

Insurance is intended to spread/share costs, not eliminate them.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

I've got full hull and liability coverage. It's about the same price as my car insurance (and the plane is worth 4x what the car is worth). I'm not in a position to not have insurance. For the folks who don't carry any liability insurance, I sure hope you're extremely careful - a minor lapse in judgement could easily result in a ground-handling accident with another plane, causing $Ks in damage to the other plane. (It's not just your plane being insured!)

Jeff

 

[Iceman]

???? If by that do you mean to ask if some owners are so rich that the loss of an airplane wouldn't be felt, I suspect the answer is generally no. If you have more money you probably own more expensive airplanes so the risk is about the same. One factor would be whether or not you owe money on the airplane, in which case you'd not only lose the airplane but would also have to come up with the loan value assuming the loan was secured by the plane.

No, I was just trying to be funny and imply that the owner would have a top notch insurance policy that would cover everything including the carpet if someone got in with dirty shoes .

 

[Iceman]

For the folks who don't carry any liability insurance, I sure hope you're extremely careful - a minor lapse in judgement could easily result in a ground-handling accident with another plane, causing $Ks in damage to the other plane. (It's not just your plane being insured!)

Jeff

I never thought of that...I just assumed (one of my faults) that the liability insurance would cover that. This is because I thought it would be similar to crashing into a house or hanger and figured the hull insurance was just for covering your plane.

 

[poadeleted20]

How many of you are flying without any insurance and don’t think it’s necessary?

Not me.

How many have just liability coverage to protect yourself and family?

Not me.

How many have the mother load and are prepared for the worst case scenario?

Not me, either. I have $1M/100K liability plus hull (with some deductible). I'm seriously considering going to $1M smooth. I'm also considering an "umbrella" liability policy for another two million or so to cover any spillover off my aviation, automotive, or homeowner's policies.

What is everyone’s opinion on insurance costs in general?

A necessary expense.

Too expensive? Not enough coverage? Insurance only for bad pilots?

Too expensive, maybe, but that's a tort reform issue -- I'd sure like to see us adopt the British model of allowing the judge to award costs to the defendant against the plaintiff in event of an unsuccessful suit without having to coutersue and prove frivolity or maliciousness. I think that would reduce the number of suits. In addition, I think some serious reform in the level of awards for intangible damages is essential. But that's not the insurance industry's fault.

However, in the current situation, it's very clear to me that insurance coverage is an absolute necessity for anyone flying or owning a plane unless that person is judgement-proof by either complete lack or, or overabundance of, personal assets and future income.

 

[EdFred]

you still think 'hey this insurance stuff is just a racquet.'

I used to think that. Until August 15, 2000. On August 10th I close on my house. On August 15th it got struck by lightning. The check hadn't even cleared yet for the huose insurace. $86,000 in damage. Best $400 I ever spent. My airplane insurance is cheaper than my automobile insurance - go figure.

 

[Ken Ibold]

To voice more specifically what Ron and Lance have alluded to, one of the true values of carrying liability insurance is that, if you're sued, the insurance company will pay to defend you. Without that defense, you're looking at $60K in legal fees BEFORE you even get to trial, and that's before any judgment you may have to pay. Try eating that without gagging!

 

[Jeff Oslick]

I never thought of that...I just assumed (one of my faults) that the liability insurance would cover that. This is because I thought it would be similar to crashing into a house or hanger and figured the hull insurance was just for covering your plane.

Right - Hull is just for your plane - the folks who don't even have liability coverage (which is usually "required" if you have hull coverage) are assuming they'll only damage their own plane in an accident/incident. Anyone know what a wing tip or an elevator on a King Air costs? (Plus loss-of-use of the other plane while it's being repaired.)

Jeff

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I carry $1,000,000 smooth on the A-36. $200,000 hull. $3,300 per year.

Made the same mistake on early rentals: thought the FBO policy covered me--ha ha!!
My policy covers me for any plane I might rent as specified in the policy.

The P-Baron is quoted at $8,000 for $1,000,000 smooth at $350,000 hull.

Best,

Dave

 

[pete177]

Not me.
Too expensive, maybe, but that's a tort reform issue -- I'd sure like to see us adopt the British model of allowing the judge to award costs to the defendant against the plaintiff in event of an unsuccessful suit without having to coutersue and prove frivolity or maliciousness. I think that would reduce the number of suits. In addition, I think some serious reform in the level of awards for intangible damages is essential. But that's not the insurance industry's fault.
QUOTE]

AMEN brother

 

[gismo]

I never thought of that...I just assumed (one of my faults) that the liability insurance would cover that. This is because I thought it would be similar to crashing into a house or hanger and figured the hull insurance was just for covering your plane.

I sense some confusion here Chris. Jeff was talking about liability coverage, not hull insurance. Damage to another airplane would be covererd by liability/property damage insurance.

 

[Whirlwind]

I have AOPA renters insurance. But when I move to Alaska, their rates are going to go way up! Grrrr!!!
--Kath

I decided not to renew my AOPA renters insurance this year...

It only covers single engine airplanes, no twins and no helicopters, so its value to me is quite limited...

I carry hull and liability coverage on the Twin Comanche.

 

[Iceman]

I sense some confusion here Chris. Jeff was talking about liability coverage, not hull insurance. Damage to another airplane would be covered by liability/property damage insurance.

Now I'm really lost...Originally I thought that liability would cover (to the stated limit) damage done to other aircraft, houses, people, etc. everything but your own aircraft. However, one of the post above said that other aircraft you damage are not covered unless you have hull insurance which did not really make sense to me...

 

[poadeleted20]

Now I'm really lost...Originally I thought that liability would cover (to the stated limit) damage done to other aircraft, houses, people, etc. everything but your own aircraft. However, one of the post above said that other aircraft you damage are not covered unless you have hull insurance which did not really make sense to me...

Damage to planes other than the one you're flying is covered by your liability coverage; your hull coverage only covers damage to the plane you're flying. However, I believe some insurers may not sell you a non-owned policy with liability coverage unless you buy some hull coverage, too (or maybe it's the other way around), and that may be what the other poster was talking about.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Damage to planes other than the one you're flying is covered by your liability coverage; your hull coverage only covers damage to the plane you're flying. However, I believe some insurers may not sell you a non-owned policy with liability coverage unless you buy some hull coverage, too (or maybe it's the other way around), and that may be what the other poster was talking about.

I think it's the other way around, no hull without liability, on the premise that if you hit something, you've hit SOMETHING.

Well, and plus I'd be willing to wager that liability premiums are more profitable.

 

[gismo]

Now I'm really lost...Originally I thought that liability would cover (to the stated limit) damage done to other aircraft, houses, people, etc. everything but your own aircraft. However, one of the post above said that other aircraft you damage are not covered unless you have hull insurance which did not really make sense to me...

Read Jeff's post again, he was talking about liability insurance. Only the first sentence in his post where he says he carries hull and liability mentions hull insurance.

For the folks who don't carry any liability insurance, I sure hope you're extremely careful - a minor lapse in judgement could easily result in a ground-handling accident with another plane, causing $Ks in damage to the other plane. (It's not just your plane being insured!)

 

[AdamZ]

In my opinion Insurance is like going to prison. You may not get raped but chances better are that you will than had you not. Insurance is a great scam/ business depending upon the company. Some are honorable and pay claims properly and manage their money well. Others use every trick in the book to deny a valid claim.
Insurance companies provide a valuable service that's not the issue. The issue is wether they honor their contracts and how the industry IMHO misleads the public about a mythical tort crisis; saying they will reduce premiums if they get certain laws passed and when the it gets what it wants raises premiums even further.
Do I buy insurance? Yup!

 

[Eamon]

2 planes
$1M liability.
$55K & $30k hull damage
Air & Ground
$1600 yr

I never fly without some type of coverage. It is WAY cheaper than car insurance.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

I decided not to renew my AOPA renters insurance this year...

It only covers single engine airplanes, no twins and no helicopters, so its value to me is quite limited...

I carry hull and liability coverage on the Twin Comanche.

Check the insurance policy on your Twin Co--odds are it covers non-owned aircraft up to the policy limits. If it doesn't, you might consider either requesting such a clause from your current company or consider an insurance company change. My Mooney policy from USAIG covers non-owned aircraft including twins.

 

[AdamZ]

Looking for an answer from owners here. It seems there is more competition in the premium market for owners polices than renters, policies. Have owners found this when they have shopped around? I only found a $1.00 -$10.00 difference between 2-3 carriers including AOPA for a renters policy.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Check the insurance policy on your Twin Co--odds are it covers non-owned aircraft up to the policy limits. If it doesn't, you might consider either requesting such a clause from your current company or consider an insurance company change. My Mooney policy from USAIG covers non-owned aircraft including twins.

Often the non-owned aircraft coverage applies only if your airplane is down for repair of some kind. (I guess you could get your mech to find something! If you're one of the many who occasionally rents to get capability not offered by your owned airplane, you're out of luck.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Looking for an answer from owners here. It seems there is more competition in the premium market for owners polices than renters, policies. Have owners found this when they have shopped around? I only found a $1.00 -$10.00 difference between 2-3 carriers including AOPA for a renters policy.

There isn't really any shopping around. There are many agents, but only a few underwriters. Once one agent gives you a quote by N number, you're locked out from getting competing quotes from other agents.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I decided not to renew my AOPA renters insurance this year...

It only covers single engine airplanes, no twins and no helicopters, so its value to me is quite limited...

FYI, Avemco started covering twins again in January.

 

[Richman67]

Not me, either. I have $1M/100K liability plus hull (with some deductible). I'm seriously considering going to $1M smooth. I'm also considering an "umbrella" liability policy for another two million or so to cover any spillover off my aviation, automotive, or homeowner's policies.

I have to go with Ron here, ESPECIALLY about the umbrella liability policy. 2 million in coverage costs me about $30 a month. If you have any kind of assets, you shouldn't go without it.

If you get any kind of passenger injury, you can bet the injured will drain your insurance THEN go after your personal assets.

Most important...if you transport ANYONE'S children in your car, plane or boat, make sure you have this coverage. JMHO....

Very best,
Rich

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Please check your umbrella coverage; mine specifically excludes aviation related claims. On another discussion board, only one owner had umbrella coverage from a company that did not exclude aviation claims and he had to direct all his other business to that company to get that coverage.

Best,

Dave

 

[Whirlwind]

FYI, Avemco started covering twins again in January.

Good to know, thanks... Now if they would only cover helicopters...