Instruments

[evapilotaz]

During my Recent flight review my CFI never told me when I should stop looking at the instruments during approach to landing. I never even ask him is what I'm doing is normal.

So basically it goes like this. While in Pattern I'm doing my instrument scans and looking out the window. On final approach as I just cross the numbers I stop looking at the instruments and look out the window only.
I focus on roundout and flair judging height by looking out front and using Peripheral to judge Height over the runway.

Is this what you all do? This is all VFR stuff so no need to mention using ILS for landing.

Thanks.

 

[evapilotaz]

I wish we practice partial Instrument failure during landing like lost of airspeed and Vertical speed indicator failure.

 

[frfly172]

On a VFR trip ,why are you fixated on the instruments?

 

[evapilotaz]

On a VFR trip ,why are you fixated on the instruments?

I'm don't consider what I'm doing is fixating on the instruments while in the pattern. I'm mostly looking out the window and take quick looks at the instruments to make sure my airspeed, altitude and VSI is good during my approach.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

So basically it goes like this. While in Pattern I'm doing my instrument scans and looking out the window. On final approach as I just cross the numbers I stop looking at the instruments and look out the window only.
I focus on roundout and flair judging height by looking out front and using Peripheral to judge Height over the runway.

Is this what you all do? This is all VFR stuff so no need to mention using ILS for landing.

Thanks.

Yep...

 

[jordane93]

You're VFR. Most of the flying should be done by outside references. However it's also important to cross check that outside scan with an instrument scan.

 

[evapilotaz]

I do cross check and look out the window. Its just when I cross the numbers I stop cross checking.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[tehmightypirate]

I'm don't consider what I'm doing is fixating on the instruments while in the pattern. I'm mostly looking out the window and take quick looks at the instruments to make sure my airspeed, altitude and VSI is good during my approach.

I'm pretty bad about keeping my eyes outside. Doing steep turns for example I tend to fixate on the instruments. That said, when I'm landing VFR I'm 95% outside and 5% inside. Once I get established at pattern altitude I all but ignore anything that's not the airspeed indicator or tach. Then I'll only reference the airspeed indicator to confirm flap speeds and make minor adjustments. On final I'll glance at the airspeed indicator fairly often but once it's stable it's back outside.

Not saying you can't look inside more often, but you really shouldn't need to. It's generally easy to tell if you're too high, fast, low, or slow based on visual reference alone.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yes, that's what I do, and I don't look much at the instruments in the pattern to start with -- that would distract me from the primary task of see-and-avoid. Once you're on final, there's really no need at all to look at the instruments, as you can tell whether or not you're on speed by pitch attitude, and whether or not you're on glide path by angle to the runway over the nose (or the visual glide slope indicator if there is one).

 

[MAKG1]

The only critical quantities in the pattern are airspeed and altitude. Glance at the ASI and altimeter on occasion. Nothing else inside the airplane needs a look VFR (well, except for the pre-landing checklist, but I like to have that done on the 45 at the latest). Once stabilized, it is no longer necessary. In a pinch, you can do without any of it, but it's always a good idea to have backups.

 

[NJP_MAN]

Next time up with your CFI have him/her cover all of the instruments while you fly in the traffic pattern. Yes including the pressure altitude indication on the 327 transponder. It will get you very comfortable with your senses other than eyes on gauges. Sounds, angles and outside visuals will cue you into all the information required to fly the pattern. Altitude was always the hardest to judge for me

 

[poadeleted20]

The only critical quantities in the pattern are airspeed and altitude. Glance at the ASI and altimeter on occasion.

No real need for looking at airspeed unless you think you're on the edge of a gear or flap limit speed. You can tell all you need to know about speed by checking attitude, and as long as there's a visible horizon, you can do that with your eyes outside. And once you pass the abeam position and leave TPA, there's nothing to be gained by looking at your altimeter, either, as looking outside at the angle to the runway is all you need from that point onward.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

No real need for looking at airspeed unless you think you're on the edge of a gear or flap limit speed. You can tell all you need to know about speed by checking attitude, and as long as there's a visible horizon, you can do that with your eyes outside. And once you pass the abeam position and leave TPA, there's nothing to be gained by looking at your altimeter, either, as looking outside at the angle to the runway is all you need from that point onward.

Couldn't agree more. And this skill will grow as you fly more often.

 

[kenjr]

I do the same thing. Once I'm locked on airspeed I'm eyes out the rest of the way down.

I had a lesson planned where we were heading out to the practice area for various maneuvers and such and as we are climbing out and the airpseed indicator goes to zero. My CFI says, "That's awesome...let's stay in the pattern and do some landings..."

So, I spent an hour doing landings with no airspeed indicator. Loved it.

I've flown all but about 6 of my ~200 hours in the very same plane so I really have a good 'feel' for it. If the airpseed indicator died again, it wouldn't stress me in the slightest.

 

[MAKG1]

No real need for looking at airspeed unless you think you're on the edge of a gear or flap limit speed. You can tell all you need to know about speed by checking attitude, and as long as there's a visible horizon, you can do that with your eyes outside. And once you pass the abeam position and leave TPA, there's nothing to be gained by looking at your altimeter, either, as looking outside at the angle to the runway is all you need from that point onward.

No real need except for redundancy. There are several well known illusions that can bite you. One example would be the first time you approach a 150 foot wide runway after training with 50 feet. Using outside references alone will put you very low on approach.

Absolutely, it's possible. But it's not a good idea to rely exclusively on one method all the time. Cross-check. And it only takes a glance.

 

[TMetzinger]

No real need except for redundancy. There are several well known illusions that can bite you. One example would be the first time you approach a 150 foot wide runway after training with 50 feet. Using outside references alone will put you very low on approach.

Absolutely, it's possible. But it's not a good idea to rely exclusively on one method all the time. Cross-check. And it only takes a glance.

What does that have to do with airspeed? Ron agreed with cross checking altitude. Like Ron, I agree that occasional glances at the altimeter is all that's required, and airspeed "peeks" only needed for configuration changes, sometimes.

 

[Henning]

During my Recent flight review my CFI never told me when I should stop looking at the instruments during approach to landing. I never even ask him is what I'm doing is normal.

So basically it goes like this. While in Pattern I'm doing my instrument scans and looking out the window. On final approach as I just cross the numbers I stop looking at the instruments and look out the window only.
I focus on roundout and flair judging height by looking out front and using Peripheral to judge Height over the runway.

Is this what you all do? This is all VFR stuff so no need to mention using ILS for landing.

Thanks.

Pretty much yeah, I probably pay less attention to the instruments than you once I have a visual on the airport environment, but yeah, basic VFR procedure is just what you describe. On a Flight Review I would not expect the CFI to be that remedial in instruction to bring that up, that is Lesson One/Flight One information that has never changed. I would think that would be knowledge taken for granted on a Flight Review.

 

[MAKG1]

What does that have to do with airspeed? Ron agreed with cross checking altitude. Like Ron, I agree that occasional glances at the altimeter is all that's required, and airspeed "peeks" only needed for configuration changes, sometimes.

No, he didn't. He said it wasn't necessary.

He said to check attitude.

I agree that it's not truly necessary under all circumstances, but it's taking it a few steps too far to say always look outside. Yes, you should be looking outside nearly all the time, but a cross-check is called for when it is possible.

It's very much like saying you time your fuel consumption so there is no need to look at the gauges. Most of the time, that works fine. But, the next time you have a leak, you're screwed.

 

[bluerooster]

I wish we practice partial Instrument failure during landing like lost of airspeed and Vertical speed indicator failure.

Just you wait bubba. If your instructor is half worth his salt, he'll kill all the panel lights at night, at rotation, and make you fly the pattern that way all the way to 3 landings, and one of those with the panel dark, and the runway dark. It's Fun.

 

[bflynn]

If you're good with it and it works, then it works. It sounds like you're doing the same thing most of us do - fly the pattern mostly by visual with a quick cross check of airspeed and altitude.

I may be guilty of looking inside too often, but having caught my airspeed at 50 kts once in gusty conditions (44 kt stall speed), I'm a little paranoid about it.

 

[evapilotaz]

Thanks for all the constructive comments. For the sake of conversation the next time I will fly with a cfi is during my next flight review. I'm just shy of 120 hrs.

 

[Henning]

Thanks for all the constructive comments. For the sake of conversation the next time I will fly with a cfi is during my next flight review. I'm just shy of 120 hrs.

You won't likely be given too much instrument on a VFR FR. IPCs are where that happens.

 

[BillTIZ]

Part of our pre solo syllabus with our students is to cover the airspeed and altimeter at altitude and have them judge pattern entry and landing without instruments.

Yes, we are in a glider, we are flying visual attitude referenced to the outside and we are judging airspeed based on pitch reference and sound.

Flying power, I think I only reference check the ASI with each configuration change and maybe. I know I am not staring at the ASI, it's all outside.

 

[evapilotaz]

I need to take a ride in a Glider someday. No go around options in those things and no power available to adjust your altitude during approach.

 

[David7700]

I need to take a ride in a Glider someday. No go around options in those things and no power available to adjust your altitude during approach.

One thing on my aviation bucket list--glider flight/training.

 

[Henning]

I need to take a ride in a Glider someday. No go around options in those things and no power available to adjust your altitude during approach.

But typically you get a spoiler which allows you to carry a safety margin of energy, plus they use their energy much more efficiently. I did a couple of glider aerobatic rides in high performance gliders and had more fun than powered aerobatics.

 

[fiveoboy01]

No real need for looking at airspeed unless you think you're on the edge of a gear or flap limit speed. You can tell all you need to know about speed by checking attitude, and as long as there's a visible horizon, you can do that with your eyes outside. And once you pass the abeam position and leave TPA, there's nothing to be gained by looking at your altimeter, either, as looking outside at the angle to the runway is all you need from that point onward.

For those of us with fewer hours, we still glance at the ASI on a regular basis especially on final:wink2:

Once I'm over the threshold I ignore the instruments.

 

[Henning]

For those of us with fewer hours, we still glance at the ASI on a regular basis especially on final:wink2:

Once I'm over the threshold I ignore the instruments.

Why? Seriously, you can feel how much reserve lift you have in the yoke pressure much more accurately than you can gauge it from the ASI.

My last FR my CFI asks for a short field landing. On short final he notes, "Hey, we're below the white arc." "Yeah you wanted short right?" "Yeah" "We're still flying right?""Yeah" "you don't hear a stall horn do you?" "Nope" "So why is being below the white arc a problem?" "I guess it isn't". On the touch down the tower called down a score of "10" for the landing.

Unless you calculated the numbers for your weight, or you are flying at max gross, the numbers you are flying from what is written or told to you is likely much too high anyway. These are not swept wing jets being flown, if they were numbers would be much more relevant. With our little straight wing planes, fly the plane more so than the numbers. Practice a lot of slow flight with the stall horn blaring, and also with it just chirping, and with it 5kts over the chirp. Learn the difference in the feel of the yoke. For this it's important to trim as well as you can all the time. Only when the plane is properly trimmed do you get the accuracy of feel required for real finesse, especially at low speed.

 

[WingNut42]

Sounds like your on a reasonable path, once in the pattern VFR there really isn't much other than ASI and Tach that are a big deal. Quick glances to everything, and even those you will learn to judge largely from sound.

 

[fiveoboy01]

Why? Seriously, you can feel how much reserve lift you have in the yoke pressure much more accurately than you can gauge it from the ASI.

My last FR my CFI asks for a short field landing. On short final he notes, "Hey, we're below the white arc." "Yeah you wanted short right?" "Yeah" "We're still flying right?""Yeah" "you don't hear a stall horn do you?" "Nope" "So why is being below the white arc a problem?" "I guess it isn't". On the touch down the tower called down a score of "10" for the landing.

Unless you calculated the numbers for your weight, or you are flying at max gross, the numbers you are flying from what is written or told to you is likely much too high anyway. These are not swept wing jets being flown, if they were numbers would be much more relevant. With our little straight wing planes, fly the plane more so than the numbers. Practice a lot of slow flight with the stall horn blaring, and also with it just chirping, and with it 5kts over the chirp. Learn the difference in the feel of the yoke. For this it's important to trim as well as you can all the time. Only when the plane is properly trimmed do you get the accuracy of feel required for real finesse, especially at low speed.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but all that comes with practice and experience. I've got like 108 hours:wink2:

 

[BillTIZ]

Just you wait bubba. If your instructor is half worth his salt, he'll kill all the panel lights at night, at rotation, and make you fly the pattern that way all the way to 3 landings, and one of those with the panel dark, and the runway dark. It's Fun.

BTDT, unlighted runway at night, full moon with snow on the ground, killed the position lights when we cleared the trees on approach. No fair cheating when the wingtip lights reflect off the snow.

 

[Henning]

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but all that comes with practice and experience. I've got like 108 hours:wink2:

My CFI made sure I was comfortable with a covered ASI (whole panel really) before I was signed off to solo. Start practicing.

 

[evapilotaz]

But typically you get a spoiler which allows you to carry a safety margin of energy, plus they use their energy much more efficiently. I did a couple of glider aerobatic rides in high performance gliders and had more fun than powered aerobatics.

I assuming you have to go through a lot more flight planning so you don't land short of the Runway.

Thanks.

 

[Henning]

I assuming you have to go through a lot more flight planning so you don't land short of the Runway.

Thanks.

Surprisingly little as there was a ridgeline lift we would work that would allow you to play all you wanted, then set yourself up for a clean shot into the pattern.

 

[fiveoboy01]

My CFI made sure I was comfortable with a covered ASI (whole panel really) before I was signed off to solo. Start practicing.

Never had that done to me during my primary training.

Granted, in the pattern I don't look at it really and on final once stabilized I more use throttle to adjust the glide path... but still glance at the ASI.

I do fly a good variety of airplanes so it's hard for me to get used to the feel.

 

[evapilotaz]

So I flew today and I decided to try not look at asi on 1/2 mile final
Once I established approach speed. I landed just the same as before.

 

[Terry L in KY]

My CFI made sure I was comfortable with a covered ASI (whole panel really) before I was signed off to solo. Start practicing.

Ditto - I still remember the dishtowel he used. Was pretty funky as I remember...

Suggest a fair about of stall practice (at altitude, obviously) with the ASI, (or the whole damn panel for that matter) covered. You'd be surprised at what the plane is telling you by feel...once you get the feel for it, you'll have no use for instruments in the pattern. (although I do cheat in normal ops - mostly altimeter for correct pattern altitude).

Eyes belong outside anywhere remotely close to an airfield....

 

[midlifeflyer]

Never had that done to me during my primary training.

Granted, in the pattern I don't look at it really and on final once stabilized I more use throttle to adjust the glide path... but still glance at the ASI.

I do fly a good variety of airplanes so it's hard for me to get used to the feel.

Variety of aircraft doesn't really matter. It was first done to me during a checkout in a make and model I had never flown before (I had probably flown at least 8 different makes/models, both high and low wings up til then). After two landings, the instructor covered the panel. Surprised me but it left me thinking this was the best thing since sliced bread.

Now, a primary student of mine doesn't solo, I don't do a new-to-them aircraft checkout, and I don't give a flight review without the pilot doing at least one. I always get a weird look. And it's always far easier than the pilot expects it to be.