nddons
Touchdown! Greaser!
Where are you with your 50 cross country hours?
Instrument Rating, not needed?
- Thread starter Meanee
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Where are you with your 50 cross country hours?
Gubbins
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Everskyward
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Everskyward
Even the FAA teaches it as "Risk Management" not "Risk Elimination". When someone uses incorrect terminology it can lead to confusion. Or maybe he really means it.
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/pilot_risk/media/1.0 Practical Risk Management.pdf
ChrisK
En-Route
Sorry. I was being a jackass. Not ready until next year.
Gubbins
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Take a good multi leg, preferably multi day cross country of 1000+NM. Go somewhere the excited kid wants to go, play there and come home. That will have you sufficient cross country time that if you do much of your IR training on XC flights (all of my 40hrs except the first 1.* was XC shooting approaches and landings at every airport in CA from the Bay area south that had an approach) that when done you'll have the 50hrs required. Besides that, long days of flying is where you finally start to relax and the hand eye movements start becoming 'automatic'. Once you start being able to keep control of the plane straight and level while studying a chart and working a radio by just glancing up and doing it while keeping your thoughts on the other task you're doing, your ready to toss instruments into the mix. In other words, when controlling the plane takes the least percentage of processing time while multi tasking and you don't have to stop what you're doing/thinking to regain position or situational awareness. The FAA used to have minimum hours, but they took those away which I don't think was all that helpful to people who will stay GA as I think the 125hr minimum which started me on my IR with 85 hrs, that was there when I did mine was pretty representative of when I had reached that level of comfort and ability flying. In the mean time I had flown from Long Beach to Ft Wayne IN and back and got my Multi Engine rating in my Travelair. I did my IR in a week with a brutal but very high time CFII in his 172.
ChrisK
En-Route
That was a serious and good answer.
This is a great thread.
I like what Lance said several pages back that balances GA capability against one's ability to remain IFR current.
My 2 pesos is that GA has really been oversold over the years when it comes to personal transportation. It takes serious hardware, training and experience to realize the full capability of GA flying in bad weather.
That's why I don't attempt it. In a good year, I fly maybe 50-60 hours. I don't think that's enough for me to keep up my basic stick-and-rudder skills and just have fun messing around, much less become or maintain instrument current so I can safely go off into the gray with my family in tow. If someone that got an IR 10 years ago that flies 12 hr/yr now can do that, more power to him/her.
But I don't attempt to justify my flying as anything remotely close to useful. All of my flights are for my own personal amusement, just like a boat or a motorcycle. I have gotten myself stuck away from home and had to take Greyhound home. Not what a person that bought a plane for transportation value would want to admit to, but I did talk to a couple of people on the bus trip that I wouldn't have met otherwise, so that was ok.
I like what Lance said several pages back that balances GA capability against one's ability to remain IFR current.
My 2 pesos is that GA has really been oversold over the years when it comes to personal transportation. It takes serious hardware, training and experience to realize the full capability of GA flying in bad weather.
That's why I don't attempt it. In a good year, I fly maybe 50-60 hours. I don't think that's enough for me to keep up my basic stick-and-rudder skills and just have fun messing around, much less become or maintain instrument current so I can safely go off into the gray with my family in tow. If someone that got an IR 10 years ago that flies 12 hr/yr now can do that, more power to him/her.
But I don't attempt to justify my flying as anything remotely close to useful. All of my flights are for my own personal amusement, just like a boat or a motorcycle. I have gotten myself stuck away from home and had to take Greyhound home. Not what a person that bought a plane for transportation value would want to admit to, but I did talk to a couple of people on the bus trip that I wouldn't have met otherwise, so that was ok.
It was a good question.
denverpilot
Tied Down
As soon as you feel like listening TI these two argue on a Center frequency and not be able to turn them off.
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Bob Noel
Let's not forget that a pilot can choose to get the instrument rating, not maintain proficiency for x number of years, and then regain it sometime in the future when needed. It can be quicker to regain proficiency than to do all the initial training.
Above you posted about " It takes serious hardware, training and experience to realize the full capability of GA flying in bad weather." Well, then is it ok to say that it doesn't take as much hardware and experience to get something less than full capability? Don't have FIKI? Then don't launch into icing conditions. Don't have unlimited range and have a destination with low ceilings etc? Then don't launch if you can't reach a good alternate.
The usefullness of the IR goes beyond 'bad weather'. Yesterday was a perfectly good day to fly and I took a trip from DC to NH that I wouldn't have done VFR. Went straight over JFK at 7000 and keeping track of R-areas and MOAs in central Jersey was a non-issue. My return got pushed into the evening and I ended up flying an approach in dense haze just after sundown.
wabower
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Wayne
Ding! Ding!
Watch the various threads on numerous GA forums for proof of this concept.
The VFR guys are whining about Labor Day weekend trips that are "looking iffy" because of uncertain forecasts that might interfere with their plans, while at the same time the IFR guys are whining that they can't find any "real clouds" in which to practice their skills. What's wrong with this picture?
None of the weather that the VFR's find problematic requires CAT II proficiency or Chuck Yeager flying skills, it's just not quite good enough for VFR.
And even if it's CAVU for the outbound leg(s) they are concerned that it will/could/maybe/might change for the worse over the weekend and cause their airplane (and maybe them as well) to be stranded in BFE when the boss-man wants their happyass back at work on Tuesday.
I've been among the whiners in both camps. For the first 12 years after obtaining VFR-PPL during college, I doop-de-dooped along without any IR training or inclination therefor. Kids were little, money was tight, had nowhere to go and no reason to worry about bigger and better things ahead. Numerous trips "to see Mom and all them" were cancelled over the years due to "VFR not recommended, dark and scary all quadrants" but accepted as part of the territory.
As circumstances changed and the IR became a business necessity, I found myself easily flying many of the trips that had previously been verboten and reflecting about why they were such a big deal then and are such a ho-hum now. Many thousand such hours were flown with no de-ice, no turbo, no radar, no stormscope, no Loran, no GPS, no SVT, no glass cockpit and no XM. I like having all that stuff a lot better than not having it, but it's all "nice to have" rather than '"need to have."
Having now been an IFR whiner for 40-odd years, I've long-since lost track of the number of such trips, but am comfortable in the knowledge that the benefits of obtaining the IR are grossly underestimated by those who don't have the rating and immediately default to the "I don't fly enough to be current for 200' and half-mile ops" as their rationale for remaining in the doop-de-doop group.
I gots no problemo with whatever they decide to do, but am also aware that they don't know what they don't know.
Watch the various threads on numerous GA forums for proof of this concept.
The VFR guys are whining about Labor Day weekend trips that are "looking iffy" because of uncertain forecasts that might interfere with their plans, while at the same time the IFR guys are whining that they can't find any "real clouds" in which to practice their skills. What's wrong with this picture?
None of the weather that the VFR's find problematic requires CAT II proficiency or Chuck Yeager flying skills, it's just not quite good enough for VFR.
And even if it's CAVU for the outbound leg(s) they are concerned that it will/could/maybe/might change for the worse over the weekend and cause their airplane (and maybe them as well) to be stranded in BFE when the boss-man wants their happyass back at work on Tuesday.
I've been among the whiners in both camps. For the first 12 years after obtaining VFR-PPL during college, I doop-de-dooped along without any IR training or inclination therefor. Kids were little, money was tight, had nowhere to go and no reason to worry about bigger and better things ahead. Numerous trips "to see Mom and all them" were cancelled over the years due to "VFR not recommended, dark and scary all quadrants" but accepted as part of the territory.
As circumstances changed and the IR became a business necessity, I found myself easily flying many of the trips that had previously been verboten and reflecting about why they were such a big deal then and are such a ho-hum now. Many thousand such hours were flown with no de-ice, no turbo, no radar, no stormscope, no Loran, no GPS, no SVT, no glass cockpit and no XM. I like having all that stuff a lot better than not having it, but it's all "nice to have" rather than '"need to have."
Having now been an IFR whiner for 40-odd years, I've long-since lost track of the number of such trips, but am comfortable in the knowledge that the benefits of obtaining the IR are grossly underestimated by those who don't have the rating and immediately default to the "I don't fly enough to be current for 200' and half-mile ops" as their rationale for remaining in the doop-de-doop group.
I gots no problemo with whatever they decide to do, but am also aware that they don't know what they don't know.
nddons
Touchdown! Greaser!
ChrisK
En-Route
Yea, I know. I could't get the smiley on my iPhone and tapatalk. Here you go:
Beautiful!
Jaybird180
Final Approach
Yup, this last thing:
Never asked you to name names or employers. But I did ask for the NTSB report (public record). Without it, I'm calling Bovine Scatology.
I'm with you, Wayne, and you make an outstanding point that a lot of those here should pay attention to. I got out of the doop-de-doop group a while back
and am really glad I did, although I am not using the IR much these days.By the way, I think you could have been a song writer. Maybe you missed your calling!
Everskyward
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Everskyward
Then you get to the point where you're whining because you need to make the 25-mile drive to the airport at o-dark-thirty in a snowstorm because you know the weather is good enough for you to fly with the equipment you have...
The reason most people don't get an IR is because they don't want to spend the money and effort required. Even though I prefer not to use it, I still have it and I still do my IPCs. I do occasionally call in for a clearance especially on nights when cloud avoidance Isn't feasible VFR.
Captain
Final Approach
The aspect that often gets left out or glossed over in these discussions is the reality of how much more flying is required to stay proficient for the IFR guy.
Want to fly 100 hours a year? Fine, stay VFR. If you get your IR and only fly that much you have wasted your money. Plus, unless you have great self dicipline and a realistic view of yourself you may even have put yourself in danger.
I'd need around 400 to 500 hours a year in order to feel solid about flying IFR and that's filing around 90% of those flights. IFR adds a lot of system complexity that needs to be kept up on.
If you have the money to just blast into the air then maybe there is value to you in getting an IR and not using it. Sure, it'll make you a better pilot. But so would flying with a CFI and flying to tight standards. That glider rating idea was pretty good too. I've always meant to do that.
Want to fly 100 hours a year? Fine, stay VFR. If you get your IR and only fly that much you have wasted your money. Plus, unless you have great self dicipline and a realistic view of yourself you may even have put yourself in danger.
I'd need around 400 to 500 hours a year in order to feel solid about flying IFR and that's filing around 90% of those flights. IFR adds a lot of system complexity that needs to be kept up on.
If you have the money to just blast into the air then maybe there is value to you in getting an IR and not using it. Sure, it'll make you a better pilot. But so would flying with a CFI and flying to tight standards. That glider rating idea was pretty good too. I've always meant to do that.
flyersfan31
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Freiburgfan31
I accept risk every time I hop in the car to drive to the grocery store.
I guess this makes me a madman.
No wonder I rarely visit POA anymore.
Get the IR. It's excellent training and will make you a better pilot, whether you ever fly through a cloud again or not.
I guess this makes me a madman.
No wonder I rarely visit POA anymore.
Get the IR. It's excellent training and will make you a better pilot, whether you ever fly through a cloud again or not.
Clark1961
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Every village seems to have an idiot. I'm sure that some other village outplaced POA's current idiot for substandard performance...
I concur with the numbers Captain comes up with this as my personal numbers as well, and I'm not a person who is that unrealistic or untested in my own abilities with regards to what it takes to handle equipment in extreme circumstances of multiple cascading failures. That's why it took one IPC behind SVT to know that I had found my hedge to be comfortable in IMC at my current level of flying of 100hrs a year or less. All this talk of being proficient and steam has always been good enough, it's all poppycock in the world of $5 a gallon gas and $150 hr 172s. It's just not a reality most spam can drivers can afford. Traditional IFR has a huge safety and schedule benefit in the world of commercial aviation and even business aviation where people are flying 300+ hrs a year, most of it in the system, much of it in actual. From those people on down in annual hours and IFR, the practical benefit drops rapidly. The reason you get so many VFR into IMC amount IR pilots is because they don't feel comfortable with their ability in flying instruments when it comes to it. We now have an option besides burning avgas and spending hours on sims.
drgwentzel
Pre-takeoff checklist
Gubbins
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I could not have said it better. And that's tough for me to admit!
Yes, he nailed it
craigvince
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The instrument rating will not give you the ability to think ahead. Rather the ability to think ahead will be crucial to your ability to fly safely in IMC. The IR will certainly give you more confidence in flying.
I had 1200 hours before I got my IR. I didn't really realize how much I was limited until I did get it. The freedom to choose whether (weather) to go or not is now mine, not the FAA's. My flying days have increased by about 25% over the days of VMC only.
Whether you fly 20 hours a year or 200 hours a year like I do has nothing to do with your decision. All it takes is 30 seconds of IMC to get disoriented and end up out of control.
Meanee
Line Up and Wait
The reason I am actually thinking about IR is when I took 2 pax to an airport about 55nm from home drome. Outbound, I had low clouds, but TAF showed that it will clear up. I aborted the trip. Landed back at home airport, and waited for 1 hour. Clouds lifted up, but not a lot. I went to that airport 55nm away to visit some relatives with my pax, we had a good meal but I was constantly calling AWOS to make sure I can actually come back legally. TAF showed that conditions will get worse. I had to take off immediately. I did, and ended up scud running. As a low time pilot, with pax on board, and 500' above a hilltop, and 500' below cloud deck was scary. At least approach helped me out with flight following and a vector.
I figured after an incident like that, getting IR would make things a bit safer for myself and my pax.
I figured after an incident like that, getting IR would make things a bit safer for myself and my pax.
When trying to decide whether something is safe, it is a good idea to look at what the pros are doing. The next step up from private pleasure flying would be any kind of commercial operation. For those, an IR is required for passenger carrying flights beyond 25nm or at night. Not doing a flight is often the safest course of action.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
I was once concerned about a return trip at 1500'. I guess everyone has different personal minimums.
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Sounds to me like you were perfectly safe the whole time. The IR may make it a bit more relaxing for you in those circumstances though. Legal, Comfortable, and Safe are three loosely related yet wholly separate issues.
wabower
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Wayne
Which will in all probability be quickly refuted by some PPL who cites the number of GA accidents involving pilots with advanced ratings. The distinctions between pro pilots and amateurs who have taken a few more checkrides are not readily apparent but should be noted in any such discussion.
He was talking about commercial operations, which have stricter operating rules. The level of pilot certificate held is only part of the story.
The primary difference is that pros fly as many hours in a year as the average personal pilot regardless of ratings flies in a decade. It's that first 400+ hour year that makes the big difference, and not only for the obvious reason of doing it and experiencing it, but also for all the extra time one spends aloft bored thinking about it.
Part 91 turbojets, 91(k) and 135 are all safer than VFR general aviation. While some of the orthodoxy involved in part 135 is a bit over the top, looking at the rules those professional operators (as in 'pilot gets paid to fly') go by is probably a good idea. One of those rules is : no pax for trips >25miles or at night without IR.
The mission pressure from putting down your plane at some rural strip and hitching a ride to the next motel is definitely lower if you are alone than if you are trying to fly some co-workers to visit their auntie in the hospital.
wabower
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Wayne
Compare the safety record of part 91 corporate and part 135 pilots flying similar equipment over a long period. For many years, corporate was better. After flying in both environments I concluded that a primary factor was that the GIF's in corporate are directly accountable to the GIB's whose primary goal is to get there safely. They would rather go today, but tomorrow is OK if they think the WX will beat them up. Part 135 drivers are primarily accountable to the 135 operator who is home on the couch when the trip launches into DSAQ. The 135 guys know that the trip needs to happen now or the pax will take SWA tomorrow morning.
The mindset of the pilot determines the amount of pressure he/she feels to complete a trip. My pax always knew (and still do) that their safety was a high priority, but always one step behind mine.
The mindset of the pilot determines the amount of pressure he/she feels to complete a trip. My pax always knew (and still do) that their safety was a high priority, but always one step behind mine.
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
There's a proficient way to screw up and potentially crash into a mountain? News to me.
Very, very well said.
On that note my IR ride is in 7 days. I would have killed to get out today and go fly... 200agl scattered, 800 broken, 2000 overcast... not icy, not convective... and I sat at home and watched all the other airplanes do it. It sucked. And all the airports in the area had slightly different weather.. Up to just the 2000agl overcast.
For me, I wanted my IR before I even got my PPL. It was that important to me from a safety standpoint and a flying places standpoint. My CFI thought I was nuts since I live in Phoenix.
Tarheelpilot
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Tarheelpilot
every time you get out of bed and walk to your car you are accepting some level of risk.
Getting into anything that carries your body above the surface of the earth is a substantial risk. Part of being an airman is ensuring you are intimately aware of what level of risk being assumed to ensure it is acceptable.
Risk awareness and mitigation is a critical skill for all PIC's. It is not possible to fly an airplane of any kind on any mission without accepting risk.
Blanket statements such as yours, in my opinion, discredit anything you contribute to the conversation.
LandSickness
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fri tale
Did you really not understand my comment?
VFR into IMC proficient would mean that if you found yourself in those conditions, you would be proficient in escaping with your life. I see the value in becoming instrument rated. I've never really considered aviation as a way to travel. It's all been about recreational flying to me. That could certainly change.
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Jaybird180
Final Approach
Been awhile since I read this thread, so not sure if this was covered....
Why then are IR pilots coming to grief?