Instrument Instructor Thoughts

DesertNomad

DesertNomad

Pattern Altitude
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DesertNomad
I am doing my IR with the same CFII that did my PPL - older guy (70s), 16,000 hours in everything up to a regional jet.

He doesn't use a syllabus and the best explanation I can give for his style is the "wax on, wax off, paint the fence.... Karate Kid". Basically learning without being told I am learning if that makes sense. We did the PPL the same way - lots of pattern work very early on.

I have done two lessons with him and both were under the hood doing a departure procedure, a bunch of laps around a holding pattern, vectors all over the place and a couple ILS, VOR approaches.

I have read the books and am doing about 80% on the practice written tests.

We have not really discussed the instrument scan or attitude instrument flying.... although I am doing well with the tasks I have been asked to do.

How normal is this? I know a couple other CFIIs that I might ask to do a lesson with, but the guy I am using seems to be the most popular guy around here.

Thoughts?
 
Your CFII is undoubtedly a seasoned veteran and probably knows a lot more than the average Joe. But I strongly disagree with doing instrument procedures in the first two lessons. You don't even know what a procedure turn is. How can you possibly benefit from flying holds and approaches? My opinion is that your first lesson or two should be spent learning basic attitudes and learning the six configurations of instrument flight. Then, start learning the pieces of procedures on the ground before trying them in the air. I think you would benefit from a syllabus and a more structured lesson plan.
 
write-stuff said:
You don't even know what a procedure turn is.
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We did do a few hours of ground school reading instrument plates and going over stuff, so I did know what a procedure turn was and knew about the different holding pattern entry modes, etc. We also brief and debrief each flight. There is probably 30-40 min of briefing before the flight.

You are right that he is not very structured and it bothered me a bit very early on in the PPL until it all clicked. I guess I am experiencing the same thing in the IR.
 
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If it works then fine. Lots of different styles. Have you spoken with your CFII about your concerns?
 
James331 said:
If it works then fine. Lots of different styles. Have you spoken with your CFII about your concerns?
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I am flying with him tomorrow and plan to discuss this with him then just to get a clear picture of where we stand.
 
write-stuff said:
I think you would benefit from a syllabus and a more structured lesson plan.
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Agreed.

The first hours are normally spent on basic attitude instrument flying.

Straight-and-level, level turns to headings, climbing, descending and various combinations thereof. I wanted a student to be able to make it around Patterns A & B before adding in the navigation, holds and approaches.

But maybe he's had good results doing it his way.

Your choice, but I'd find someone with a syllabus, lesson plans, that sort of thing. When I taught at a Part 141 school, these things were not optional.

Take a look at one syllabus here:

http://www.kingschools.com/cfi/documents/King_Instrument_Syllabus_Complete_120722.pdf

In that one the first six lessons are all about the basics.
 
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Approaches and holds were one of the last things I did in my instrument training. The first few lessons were learning the instrument scan, basic instrument flying and instrument interpretation. Next lesson or two was pattern A and B. Doing approaches and holds for your first lesson can be pretty overwhelming. You must first master basic instrument flying before you can throw in more advanced procedures.
 
I say go with it. If he is teaching the most complex stuff first. The rest will be cake. There are a lot of lad school instructors that don't even know what a syllabus is, and I would bet they have a pretty good record.
 
Some people try to teach by osmosis. It may work for some, and not others.
My CFII was pretty loose and much of our airwork was in IMC, including ice, storms and low (real) approaches. But even he got me to do the A-B patterns and "attitude flying" for a lesson or two before moving on to approaches and holds.
 
Another item that needs to be done early is determining the pitch power performance numbers for your aircraft. What MP, RPM, pitch, flaps, etc do you need to set to achieve the typical profiles for IFR flight (initial climb, cruise climb, cruise, cruise descent, approach level, precision descent, non-precision descent)?

Once you have those both written down and committed to memory, many other aspects of IFR training and flying get much easier.

This, plus basic attitude flying, scan, and primary and secondary instruments should be the first batch of lessons.
 
Instrument flying is a whole 'nother ball game. You have got to get the basic scans and patterns down to be an effective pilot for when the "sh*t hits the fan." Knowing basic climb, cruise, and descent profiles in varying degrees. Your SA has to be up 100% of the time. And, more and more.

Stick and rudder skills are most important during the PPL.
SA and mental sharpness are most important during the IR.

A CPL is the mastery of the two. Unfortunately, I don't think I see a mastery of either in some Commercial pilots.

I'd go for a structured training plan over what you're receiving now.
 
It gives me pause as well. I spent my first few lessons practicing "numbers" and then pattern A, pre-briefed on instrument scan.

Approaches require integrating everything. Including changing frequencies and reprogramming GPS while flying a track and an altitude precisely. If this isn't a total mess, I suppose you might be OK, but I suspect it's not good.
 
I am getting some help with that. I know how to load approaches into the 530 but my CFI has done it for me the first couple of times and occasionally handles the radio to keep my workload heavy, but bearable. Thanks for the feedback - I'm seeing my CFI in a few hours and will talk about it.
 
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Meh....some folks are do'ers....and learn by doing. I see nothing wrong with a brand new instrument student learning basic instrument scan and flying.....by doing holds. All the elements are there....
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Meh....some folks are do'ers....and learn by doing. I see nothing wrong with a brand new instrument student learning basic instrument scan and flying.....by doing holds. All the elements are there....
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You have to be able to crawl before you walk. Just like a private student, I wouldn't start off the first lesson practicing landings. Start off simple, let the student master simple, then move on to advanced maneuvers and procedures
 
I doubt he was performing "holds" as we know them.....but turns, maintaining a heading, and altitude in simulated instrument conditions....that happen to be co-located with a holding pattern....and you have the building blocks that get one there.....by doing.

I kinda like the building block approach to learning.....:yes:
 
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jaybee said:
Pattern A and B look a lot like procedure turns, approach profiles , etc etc to me :dunno: :)
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Don't tell anyone. They are.

I don't have the problem others do with doing directed procedures (which is what it kind of sounds like from the OP) instead of the canned patterns A & B, so long as the focus is on aircraft configuration and control rather than the technicalities of the procedure. That's for the "bad CFII! get rid of him!" Greek Chorus that has no idea what the story is.

I do have a bit of an issue though, with the lack of a syllabus. It's not just something that acts as a guide for the CFI (some hardly need it). But it is a way for the student to know what is coming and monitor their own progress.
 
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jordane93 said:
You have to be able to crawl before you walk. Just like a private student, I wouldn't start off the first lesson practicing landings. Start off simple, let the student master simple, then move on to advanced maneuvers and procedures
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I did landings on my second lesson. By 3.5 hours, I had 11 landings. That was in part, at my request. I was going to be flying in Africa with a 777 captain in a 182 and I wanted at least a chance of being able to land our 182 if something happened to him at the controls.

So I left for Africa with 3.5 hours and 11 landings in a 172. I got to fly about 30 hours in the right seat of the 182, but can't log it as the PIC did not have a South African CFI certificate (he only converted his ATP certificate to the PPL level for the Africa trip).
 
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DesertNomad said:
I did landings on my second lesson. By 3.5 hours, I had 11 landings. That was in part, at my request. I was going to be flying in Africa with a 777 captain in a 182 and I wanted at least a chance of being able to land our 182 if something happened to him at the controls.

So I left for Africa with 3.5 hours and 11 landings in a 172. I got to fly about 30 hours in the right seat of the 182, but can't log it as the PIC did not have a South African CFI certificate (he only converted his ATP certificate to the PPL level for the Africa trip).
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How much did you really land though?
 
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