Instructors - Push your students?

tonycondon

tonycondon

Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
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Tony
On the dual cross countries, how much do you push your students when the weather is marginal? Tuesday night I was scheduled for a night cross country with one of my students. weather was 4-5000 overcast for most of the state, with the NW half in light rain, but still good ceilings and visibilities.

He was edging towards re-planning a flight towards the SE. I argued that even though there was rain NW, the weather was no better that direction. Plus, we had planned on going that way and when he got his license there would be a destination, not just a plan to fly *somewhere*

We spent about an hour discussing options. I continued to mention that I was really hungry for some good Pizza. we also talked about outs, and how if it got crummy we could turn around or land at one of the many airports on the route. Weather was forecast to deteriorate through midnight and beyond and I pointed out how it would be better to be stuck in a town where we had a bed (original destination) rather than timbuktu SE Iowa. Those of you in Lincoln know that im not unwilling to take a student on a XC where we end up coming back the next day.

He was finally starting to believe me, so he called for another briefing. FSS was all doom and gloom and scared him pretty well. pointed out how the tops of the clouds were over FL200 and you couldnt see the bases at night (something else that I wanted him to realize). Then they mentioned an Airmet for IFR in extreme SW Iowa, no where near our route. all of this got him going enough that he stopped the briefing and told me no way no how was he going to Estherville and we should go to Ottumwa.

I pointed out that if it was too risky to go to Estherville it was too risky to go to Ottumwa, as it was just as dark in that direction, and the clouds were actually slightly lower in that direction, there just wasnt light rain, which really had no bearing on the weather. so he scrubbed totally.

This whole thing took about an hour and a half. It was a really fun and interesting mental sparring match. I think he walked away with the right lessons learned, even if we didnt get in the air at all. So...how much do you poke and prod at your students in situations like these?

We ended up going last night, in totally clear skies with a nearly full moon. had a really good trip with tailwinds on the way home! and the Pizza was yummy!!
 
Sounds like you did a good job of giving them the information and let them make the decision.

It would be good to get a student like that up there in less-than-ideal situations to see what 5 miles and lowish ceilings REALLY look like - especially with a safety 'out' sitting in the right seat. How the heck will he ever know what 5 miles/light rain really looks like at night if he never tries it!? He might get up there and say "This is stupid" but at least he has well defined lines of "I tried 5 miles/light rain at night, and I didn't like it, so I'll never do that again."
 
Tony,

Good post, as always. During my PPL and now my IR trainning my CFI will "test" me during our pre and post flight reviews and normal conversation while in the air. I think that is the best way to help new students and those of us working towards the IR to really "think" through situations, it provides more then the "what if's" when you can actually go through it or process it in the moment.

Good tools for learning what the real deal is all about and having some knowledge on the process once kicked out of the nest.
 
gary - what sort of "tests"?

my example wasnt the best, but im talking about the kind of pressure the private and maybe instrument rated pilot will be facing in situations like when they take family members on a day trip and weather deteriorates but is marginal and maybe do-able, and IFR is not an option due to icing or tstorms or whatever, and the family member has to be home for work at X:XX PM.
 
I suppose my question is what do you say at the end? If the student says to go for it, do you go for it and then if trouble exists just file a pop up to go home and say "See, this is what can happen," but then if nothing goes wrong, the student may come away with the lesson that he/she can get away with flying in those conditions, which may not always be true. Night adds another dimension to this since you can't see the cloud bases, and don't know where they are until you're in them.

For me, I was willing to push harder with my instructor in the right seat because I knew there was an out, and I'd rather get the experience to see for myself what the conditions are like. Once I started flying VFR by myself, I set significantly different limits, which then gradually shifted as I gained some more experience. IFR was similar - my first solo IFR flights had very little time actually in the clouds. Now my real concern is getting into icing with winter approaching, but that's another dimension.

Of course, I'm no instructor, so this is really just a good discussion for me to read. :)
 
good point ted. there is always the fear of reinforcing poor decision making. ive done at least short MVFR XC flights with students before and spent most of the time talking about how miserable it is having to deal with low weather, towers, and whatever else.

oh and i forgot to mention. By 11 PM on tuesday night Ames was reporting Few at 700 and overcast 3-4000. we wouldve gotten stuck wherever we went until the next morning.
 
Tony,

I think your student got a very valuable lesson in being the pilot IN COMMAND. He made the call, defended it, stuck with it, and refused to let you override him. Good.

That said, I can see it's a tough call to take your students out in conditions that are "grey". If he'd gone last night, he'd likely have learned that night VFR can be accomplished in the weather you described. That could help him some day because he'll have an accurate picture of what those conditions are like, rather than the scarier imaginary one he probably has now. On the other hand, it could hurt him because he might think "5000' wasn't so bad, 3000' should be ok".

In the end, I think it comes down to how well a person is at second-guessing himself. If a person can realize that his experience is what he knows, and he knows what he DOESN'T know, then he'll make good decisions based on his experience. Too many people don't have the automatic "but what if I'm wrong?" question come up in their decision-making process.
 
tonycondon said:
good point ted. there is always the fear of reinforcing poor decision making. ive done at least short MVFR XC flights with students before and spent most of the time talking about how miserable it is having to deal with low weather, towers, and whatever else.

oh and i forgot to mention. By 11 PM on tuesday night Ames was reporting Few at 700 and overcast 3-4000. we wouldve gotten stuck wherever we went until the next morning.
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Sounds like a good follow up discussion with the student on what could of happened if we had gone.
 
yea we talked about it on our trip last night. i metioned how its always nice to fly to places where you know people. especially if they are people you like. makes it a lot easier to stay.
 
I plan on taking every Private Pilot student up into Marginal VFR and IMC (I file) unless he/she plans on launching anyway. It really depend son the student.

Some will just expect to stay grounded because it's overcast at 8,000 with 10 mile Vis. Others will expect to fly simply because they showed up at the airport.

The timid need to be pushed -- the bold need to be challenged.
 
dmccormack said:
S Others will expect to fly simply because they showed up at the airport.
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thats another important thing. its important to do the 1/2 hour or more drive to the airport and end up scrubbing. if you get used to always going it can lead to difficulty saying no down the road
 
Your student may not have agreed with you but then that's a good thing on that particular issue. At least they are applying good judgment and hopefully that will continue long after they are off on their own.

Yesterday, my primary student was hoping to fly and I was leading that way from the start. Looking around, it was the ideal IMC with no convective activity and no potential icing conditions. There were a few yellow areas we flew through that was light rain and light turbulence. It gave him a good lesson and he actually did pretty well for his first time in IMC.

If a student was opposed, I'd ask them to make a valid argument and state the points. I'd then discuss the concept of personal minimums and why we make them.

From the outset with a new student, I tell them that at some point "we will fly in the clouds" indicating it's a valuable experience in learning how easy it is to become disoriented and concentrate on what the instruments are telling them. It's also a selling point for those who think they won't need to go for an instrument rating. Fortunately, I have three committed students who want to learn and put every effort into it.
 
tonycondon said:
thats another important thing. its important to do the 1/2 hour or more drive to the airport and end up scrubbing. if you get used to always going it can lead to difficulty saying no down the road
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Better still is getting the plane packed and scrubbing. That was my trip to Gaston's.
 
Tony,

I'm no CFI but here's my take - and what I wish would have happened to me more often.

Part of training is to learn how to make the go/no-go decision based on your own abilitities and comfort level. Learning that you have the authority and responsibility to make that decision and not be overruled is necessary.

BUT....

There were pleny of times that I canceled because the WX was outside my personal minimums. My CFI went along with my decision. Fine up to that point. Knowing what I know now, I wish I would have had more discussions with my CFI about those marginal conditions. I wish that we would have been able to work out some arrangements so that we would have gone anyway. I would have been able to have seen what MVFR conditions really are like. My CFI is also a CFII so I did more than a few hours in actual, and I did many hours in CAVU, but I don't think I did any in MVFR.

I would have liked to have had that experience then, with a CFI, so that I would have seen it. Now, I'm probably over-cautious. I've been expanding my comfort zone a little at a time, but I think it would have been valuable experience back then.

Matt
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I suppose my question is what do you say at the end? If the student says to go for it, do you go for it
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If you're a good instructor, and you have concluded it's not a good decision, either the student will eventually reach the same conclusion, or you will conclude the student's judgement needs adjusting with a big wrench and shouldn't be allowed solo unsupervised until the adjustment is made.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you're a good instructor, and you have concluded it's not a good decision, either the student will eventually reach the same conclusion, or you will conclude the student's judgement needs adjusting with a big wrench and shouldn't be allowed solo unsupervised until the adjustment is made.
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Right, but then if you want to give your student some exposure to real world bad conditions, there may be value in going. I'm just posing the question. It's important for me to start thinking about these since I'm hoping to be an instructor before long.

I'd think a lot of it comes down to "Know your student," though, since students will be different.
 
Nice discussion, Gents.

Even us non-CFI's enjoy this discourse and can learn from it.

At least I do.
 
scott I agree. And we did look at METARS in the rain and non rain area and they were basically identical. the fact that there was rain was having no real effect on the reportable weather. and like the old saying goes: NEVER make blanket statements :)
 
timwinters said:
Nice discussion, Gents.

Even us non-CFI's enjoy this discourse and can learn from it.

At least I do.
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Absolutely agree. Great discussion!

I'm very glad that my instructor exposed me (after much discussion back and forth about conditions) to marginal conditions during my
primary training. It was invaluable to truely see what 5 miles visibilty was with him in the right seat.
 
If the student starts to paint himself into a corner I just hold the can for him until he's done it up right. If he wants to go (and I know I can let him learn the lesson) I'll let him try to figure out how to get out of the trap.

Until the cheese gets really binding I just ride along, point out stuff on the ground and ask how to use the radio to hear the ballgame. If they scare the crap out of themselves, I figure better now than later. To their credit, nobody has ever gotten close to losing it--yet. YMMV

AdamB said:
Absolutely agree. Great discussion!

I'm very glad that my instructor exposed me (after much discussion back and forth about conditions) to marginal conditions during my
primary training. It was invaluable to truely see what 5 miles visibilty was with him in the right seat.
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I always take them up in MVFR and even seek out MVFR for flight students because there's no other safe way for them to learn to fly in it than to do it with someone experienced flying in it.
 
dmccormack said:
I plan on taking every Private Pilot student up into Marginal VFR and IMC (I file) unless he/she plans on launching anyway. It really depend son the student.

Some will just expect to stay grounded because it's overcast at 8,000 with 10 mile Vis. Others will expect to fly simply because they showed up at the airport.

The timid need to be pushed -- the bold need to be challenged.
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Tony, Dan, and others: Good for you! You are causing your students to experience flight beyond the PTS.

I never received that experience when I got my PPL in 2004. Since that time I became the fairest of fair weather VFR pilots, and consequently my lack of confidence limited where I would go and how far I would go. Consequently, I became motivated to get my IA and I'm about 1/2 way through the program. Unfortunately, I still need about 20 XC hours, because you can't earn XC hours too quickly when you are only going 51nm there and back.

I'm considering a long XC around Lake Michigan to push my XC experience, including weather matters. It will also give me more - and more valuable - XC hours which I need to get to my 50 and beyond.
 
tonycondon said:
yea we talked about it on our trip last night. i metioned how its always nice to fly to places where you know people. especially if they are people you like. makes it a lot easier to stay.
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And point out to him just how many people he'll "know" by participating in a board like this!:yes:
 
tonycondon said:
gary - what sort of "tests"?
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I guess it's an exaggerated what if scenario type of question and answer with actual conditions from our flight. My current CFII has me explain things in detail and he plays devil's advocate, so to speak, which always provides more food for thought. Our flight sessions help with the confidence level knowing I have "been there" in the sense having discussed things that pop up when I am flying on my own.

As if it's not enough I still hear my PPL CFI when I fly and now I have my CFII riding along in the other ear :rolleyes:
 
One of my students planned his first long XC today. The local and route of flight weather was VFR (clg reported and forecast to be at least 4500 /vis P6).

He asked me to look over his flight planning one more time this AM. I did, made a few suggestions (he used AOPA Flight Planner and it added some intersections) and we went over the weather.

We went out to the airport where he asked me to sit right seat while he practiced some landings. It had been a week since he'd flown and the last few outings were still on his mind ("Let me help you straighten this out before we put some severe side load on your airplane...")

Everything was fairly solid, even with the slight crosswind (he still wants to level the wings right before touchdown even after a good setup -- arrgh!)

I asked him to fly one circuit solo and it looked good.

I helped him fuel up, gave him the pep talk, and helped shut the pax door.

It was a LONG runup, and then the 205 rumbled down the runway.

I drove to my next appointment and checked flightaware about an hour in.

2:30 later my cell rang -- he was at his destination, and had to give me a complete rundown of the entire flight. He was noticeably happy and relieved.

Some new pilots need to be urged a bit, and once they head out, they earn confidence alone.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Right, but then if you want to give your student some exposure to real world bad conditions, there may be value in going.
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Perhaps I didn't phrase it right. If the weather is so bad I wouldn't go myself, I am not going to let the flight get airborne, even if that requires me saying "no, we're not going" after the trainee has decided (wrongly) it's OK to go. If it's just a matter of the weather being worse than I'd let the student go solo, but still OK for me, I'm happy to let the trainee get airborne and discover what it's like to find oneself in that corner -- while I've got a good Plan B (and maybe Plans C and D, too) tucked safely in my hip pocket.
 
dmccormack said:
I plan on taking every Private Pilot student up into Marginal VFR and IMC (I file) unless he/she plans on launching anyway. It really depend son the student.

Some will just expect to stay grounded because it's overcast at 8,000 with 10 mile Vis. Others will expect to fly simply because they showed up at the airport.

The timid need to be pushed -- the bold need to be challenged.
Click to expand...

When I was training we never cancelled because of IMC. We flew into it. My long cross country was from OK to WI 1/2 IMC day and night. In my opinion when you are training, running from IMC is not the way to go. You have an instructor (Learn). On my night landings (10) the instructor I had did not want to do stalls at night. I knew it was in the book so I (Told on him when I got back):hairraise: the head instructor made him do them on a night CC the next time out. I no longer fly with that CFI. I think I am a better pilot because of the different training I got, we never went to "The practice area" we went somewhere.

Dan
 
stingray said:
When I was training we never cancelled because of IMC. We flew into it. My long cross country was from OK to WI 1/2 IMC day and night. In my opinion when you are training, running from IMC is not the way to go. You have an instructor (Learn). On my night landings (10) the instructor I had did not want to do stalls at night. I knew it was in the book so I (Told on him when I got back):hairraise: the head instructor made him do them on a night CC the next time out. I no longer fly with that CFI. I think I am a better pilot because of the different training I got, we never went to "The practice area" we went somewhere.

Dan
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I wouldn't routinely file IFR for a Student Pilot -- they need exposure to understand it is beyond current abilities, but not comfort -- that comes with experience after the Instrument rating.

Stalls at night are not required by the PTS.
 
I intend to take all off my students up in IMC at some pilot or another. It will make it that much easier and surviveable for them if they have some familiararity with it.
 
I recently did a dual x-country with a student. It was triangle course. The weather showed that airport #1 was going to be very marginal but airport #2 was easy VFR. The student did an excellent job determining this and was ready just abandon airport #1 or plan another course. I suggested that for training we should try #1 and let him determine when we should divert to #2. This we did and he made an excellent call for diverting, A applauded his decision but then suggested we continue a bit further so as to explore our options and thought processes as we dug ourselve deeper into the bad weather. We stayed VFR but had to descent to stay out of the clouds, When it got my minumums we diverted. This showed how difficult it can be to navigate in reduced visiblity and that we could use the VOR to help navigate back out of the bad weather. I

It does alway concern me with this kind of lesson as to what the student really learns from it. Does he learn what I say or what I do. I probably pushed further into the weather than I would recommend most private pilot should and this I told him. The answer is probably that it depends on the student. He did get a great experience that is rare for private pilot training.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
dmccormack said:
I wouldn't routinely file IFR for a Student Pilot -- they need exposure to understand it is beyond current abilities, but not comfort -- that comes with experience after the Instrument rating.

Stalls at night are not required by the PTS.
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It was in the syllabus.

We did not routinely do it, but we did not let weather stop us. If it was overcast we would go ontop IFR through layer. My instructor told me of a story about a guy that only could fly in the early morning for lessons (different instructor). He did not know what a bump or turbulence was. Even after he got his license he only flew in the early morning hrs.

Dan
 
Ron Levy said:
Perhaps I didn't phrase it right. If the weather is so bad I wouldn't go myself, I am not going to let the flight get airborne, even if that requires me saying "no, we're not going" after the trainee has decided (wrongly) it's OK to go. If it's just a matter of the weather being worse than I'd let the student go solo, but still OK for me, I'm happy to let the trainee get airborne and discover what it's like to find oneself in that corner -- while I've got a good Plan B (and maybe Plans C and D, too) tucked safely in my hip pocket.
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Ahh, ok, that makes a lot more sense and is exactly what I was thinking for my future students. :)
 
tonycondon said:
scott I agree. And we did look at METARS in the rain and non rain area and they were basically identical. the fact that there was rain was having no real effect on the reportable weather. and like the old saying goes: NEVER make blanket statements :)
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I'd keep in mind that even if the ASOS reported visibilities weren't affected by the precip, rain on the windshield can make a difference especially in the dark (or bright low sun).

The only other comment I have is that if the airplane was IFR legal and you were comfortable flying it in IMC, I think it would have been very "instructive" to make the flight or at least part of it with the clearly stated intention of demonstrating how challenging night VFR flying can be in marginal weather. Even if the ceilings and visibilities don't cooperate in providing conditions too poor to continue you should be able to bring up realistic concerns (how would we be able to tell that the vis ahead was too low because of rain?, can you tell how far below the clouds we are and are they getting closer, etc). I think I'd even plan to abort the flight part way by "simulating" deteriorating conditions if they didn't happen in reality (turn up the cockpit lights and say "I can't see comfortably far enough ahead, let's turn around and if it doesn't look good, we'll land at the closest airport"). That would help make the concept of aborting a flight seem more the "norm" than the exception.
 
During most of my training, I was a Clear and unlimited flyer. I wished my instructors got me flying in less than ideal. My personal mins have changed but I'm still not ready for 2,000 and 5. I have flown in some marginal weather, rain, haze, low ceiling; but all with the safety of an instructor.
Now, as a result of that, I'm working on my instrument rating. Cool to fly in actual when the weather isn't knocking you all over the sky.
 
When my now graduated IR student started his IR work (2007) he'd meet me for breakfast and say, "Well, I guess we're not flying today...." (It would be 2500 and 5). I replied, David, you are training to fly on such days, what possibly could be better than to actually do so?

He just completed a trip to MSN and back in about 800-3 . :)
 
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