Instructing in a bird with no insurance?

BellyUpFish

BellyUpFish

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I've been asked to help a guy get his private and he's debating on whether or not he'll be carrying any insurance on the aircraft. It's his bird and his insurance decisions are his, and I feel his pain on whether or not to carry it. I've been back and forth on my own aircraft, but carry it.

I'm just curious how some of you CFI's here might feel about giving instruction in an airplane without coverage?
 
Just remember, his insurance on the airplane (if he had any) wouldn't cover you anyway. You need CFI/professional liability insurance.
 
write-stuff said:
Just remember, his insurance on the airplane (if he had any) wouldn't cover you anyway. You need CFI/professional liability insurance.
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I've been "named insured" on students who have owned their own aircraft, but if he doesn't carry any, that'll be a little hard to do and like you said, I'll be looking at something.

His bird isn't worth getting hull insurance on, he's got less than $20K in it, so I can see where paying $1,500 a year wouldn't make sense for him.

He's considering liability only.
 
Dunno man, but you need to protect yourself somehow. Would a release from any liability (letter) be legal and protect you?
 
An agent told me that being a named insured doesn't protect me while giving instruction. I hear guys poo-poo that advice all the time, but I don't want to be the one to test it. So yes, be a named insured if possible, but if you have any meaningful assets, get yourself a CFI policy with professional liability.
 
If you do ANYTHING for hire, you should insurance yourself. The plane is his problem.

I don't do any paid flying related things, but you better believe I have professional liability, errors and omissions, and workers comp insurance in place to protect my sorry little butt for what I do charge for.

Friends are really friendly until a claim goes unsettled. Insurance is a necessary and valuable cost of doing business.
 
mscard88 said:
Dunno man, but you need to protect yourself somehow. Would a release from any liability (letter) be legal and protect you?
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Good question, as a student, I'd be the PIC, so if something went silly with me in the bird, it's on me..

write-stuff said:
An agent told me that being a named insured doesn't protect me while giving instruction. I hear guys poo-poo that advice all the time, but I don't want to be the one to test it. So yes, be a named insured if possible, but if you have any meaningful assets, get yourself a CFI policy with professional liability.
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Really? I guess I need to speak directly to the providers and find out the ins and outs of that. I'm not really one for playing test guy in these situations either.

Do you carry a CFI policy with liability? Who is yours with?
 
I wouldn't have a problem with it, it's his call and frankly with what I've seen the insurance industry pull on folks, insurance ain't what most people think it is, it's just a product that is good for some folks some and a waste for others.

Just have him do his own risk assessment on weather or not it's a good purchase for him, personally, even as a ATP/CFI, I always carry insurance for the first year recently purchased plane, it's when I'm possibly high enough of a risk that the price of insurance is warranted

As a CFI in his plane, I wouldn't worry about it, and no, I've never had a CFI policy.
 
I was an afterthought, plane was already bought before I was even contacted.. ;)
 
Named pilot means owner will be insured (paid) if the named pilot damages the plane. Insurance will likely subrogate against the named pilot. I'm named pilot on my brother's Pitts. I bend it, insurance pays him to repair/replace. They would then look to me to pay them. Fortunately, my insurance covers me while flying other people's airplanes. We also have the same agent/underwriter so it would be an internal matter with the insurance. :D
 
Giving instruction is a commercial operation, so the CFI may not be covered while instructing even if a named pilot. Commercial ops generally are not covered in a P&B (pleasure and incidental business) policy.

As always, read the po!icy.
 
BellyUpFish said:
Really? I guess I need to speak directly to the providers and find out the ins and outs of that.
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As @Chip Sylverne suggested, most owner policies have language excluding flight instructors while giving instruction from protection, even if they are "named insured" (a "named pilot" typically has no protection to begin with). It's usually in the provisions that talks about excluding commercial activity and the way the policy defines it.

Watch out for what providers say. The policy language is the policy language is the policy language. I've come across a good number of situations in which providers say something the policy doesn't. Guess which the company went with there there was a claim? (a) "Alphonse Agent told me"; (b) "the policy contract says".

Do you carry a CFI policy with liability? Who is yours with?
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I do. I am a member of SAFE and use their provider. Even then, you need to be aware of what the policy covers and does not. For example, Avemco does not cover you for instruction malpractice (the pilot who crashes and claims it was because instruction was faulty), although I understand (but have not confirmed) Avemco does include that coverage if the policy is purchased via NAFI.
 
BellyUpFish said:
I've been asked to help a guy get his private and he's debating on whether or not he'll be carrying any insurance on the aircraft. It's his bird and his insurance decisions are his, and I feel his pain on whether or not to carry it. I've been back and forth on my own aircraft, but carry it.

I'm just curious how some of you CFI's here might feel about giving instruction in an airplane without coverage?
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BTDT. I was not overly concerned. Not much more that I would be if the airplane had insurance since I know the owner's insurance doesn't cover me. What I did was two things:
  1. I had my own CFI insurance
  2. I received a waiver of liability from the owner (in a state where they are usually enforced)
 
Is the owner thinking about not carrying ANY insurance (liability or hull), or thinking about carrying liability but no hull?
 
midlifeflyer said:
BTDT. I was not overly concerned. Not much more that I would be if the airplane had insurance since I know the owner's insurance doesn't cover me. What I did was two things:
  1. I had my own CFI insurance
  2. I received a waiver of liability from the owner (in a state where they are usually enforced)
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Mark - I know you can't give legal advice, but I was curious on the waiver of liability. At one time we checked into for a club and were told having someone sign it is fine, but they can't / don't sign away thier spouse / children / mother/ Father's . . . Right to sue.
Does that cause you any concern?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Is the owner thinking about not carrying ANY insurance (liability or hull), or thinking about carrying liability but no hull?
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Little bit of both..

He's on the fence completely about insurance, but if he carries any, it'll only be liability.
 
In today's litigious society, I'd avoid it if there's no liability coverage, even though only the owner is covered...I may be totally off base, but I'd rather have the potential for an insurance payout in liability with the insurance company then determining whether or not to go after me as opposed to me being the first point of contact for a liability suit.

Obviously issues can occur that will end up with liabilities in excess of the insured amounts, but at least there's a point below which it's buffered.
 
If you have enough money to need insurance they'll probably go after you anyways, if you don't have that much they wont bother to sue you anyways.

80% of the time insurance is only a good deal for the insurance industry, save that insurance money premium for paying someone off and/or for a lawyer, you'll end up with a better result.
 
Jim_CAK said:
Mark - I know you can't give legal advice, but I was curious on the waiver of liability. At one time we checked into for a club and were told having someone sign it is fine, but they can't / don't sign away thier spouse / children / mother/ Father's . . . Right to sue.
Does that cause you any concern?
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Waivers of liability always cause me concern ;)

Again, it depends on the state. Without getting too technical about it, in some states, the types of claims that family and heirs can make are considered to be "derivative," which in lay terms means if the dead or injured person has no claim, neither do they. In other states, the claim is independent and the family members can sue. In some states it can even depend on how the waiver is written and the type of actions it contemplates.
 
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