Installing instruments?

cowman

cowman

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Say I had an airplane without a gps and I found a deal on one. Say a garmin 430...

I work with electronics quite a bit, I'm a programmer, I've installed many car stereos, built some simple circuits, I can solder, etc, etc..

Is this a job I can DIY with basic electrical know-how? What's involved? Would I have to have someone certify it somehow?

I ask because i see many airplanes for sale that I like and are in my price range potentially but lack a nice moving map gps which is something I really want to have. If I could purchase and install one myself it might make a difference.

Initially at least I'll be a VFR only pilot but I may want to pursue IFR training later down the road if that makes a difference.
 
You can do it under the DIRECT supervision of an A&P. Said A&P must be willing to sign off the installation of your work.

<Edit: Your install procedures must follow the mfg install instructions. No deviations allowed.>

There are a few special things to think about with avionics that you won't find in a car stereo, but it's not very hard.
 
The hand-helds are as good as the panel-mounts at about 10% of the cost. Just buy one and plug it in.
cowman said:
Say I had an airplane without a gps and I found a deal on one. Say a garmin 430...

I work with electronics quite a bit, I'm a programmer, I've installed many car stereos, built some simple circuits, I can solder, etc, etc..

Is this a job I can DIY with basic electrical know-how? What's involved? Would I have to have someone certify it somehow?

I ask because i see many airplanes for sale that I like and are in my price range potentially but lack a nice moving map gps which is something I really want to have. If I could purchase and install one myself it might make a difference.

Initially at least I'll be a VFR only pilot but I may want to pursue IFR training later down the road if that makes a difference.
Click to expand...
 
cowman said:
Say I had an airplane without a gps and I found a deal on one. Say a garmin 430...

I work with electronics quite a bit, I'm a programmer, I've installed many car stereos, built some simple circuits, I can solder, etc, etc..

Is this a job I can DIY with basic electrical know-how? What's involved? Would I have to have someone certify it somehow?

I ask because i see many airplanes for sale that I like and are in my price range potentially but lack a nice moving map gps which is something I really want to have. If I could purchase and install one myself it might make a difference.

Initially at least I'll be a VFR only pilot but I may want to pursue IFR training later down the road if that makes a difference.
Click to expand...

You might be capable of doing the work, but an A&P needs to sign off the work and do an updated weight & balance for the plane. If you develop a working relationship with a mechanic you might be able to do most of the work and get him to approve it.
 
Ok, that answers the question pretty well.

Are the handheld ones mounted to the yoke as awkward as they look or do they work pretty well there?
 
Yes, you can install a 430 DIY with supervision and a sign off. It's not difficult as far a skill goes, but you have to be able to understand the instructions. It's time consuming and uncomfortable. The real reason you don't want to DIY it though, especially on an old airplane, is that you will cause at least 6 other wiring issues that will be hell to find in 50 year old harnesses. If you do it, you fix it, if they do it, they fix it.
 
You can't file as a /G with a yoke mount, if that matters. Plus it can't drive an autopilot if you have one.
 
Henning said:
Yes, you can install a 430 DIY with supervision and a sign off. It's not difficult as far a skill goes, but you have to be able to understand the instructions. It's time consuming and uncomfortable. The real reason you don't want to DIY it though, especially on an old airplane, is that you will cause at least 6 other wiring issues that will be hell to find in 50 year old harnesses. If you do it, you fix it, if they do it, they fix it.
Click to expand...

If you look at how many wires you're dealing with, how tight the workspace is, the many different devices with which they'll be interfacing, things like that, you'll see it is not trivial. The quality of work a good avionics shop can do is impressive, too.

But I understand where you come from - I have a pretty solid electronics background, too, and am confident I could do all that stuff... given time.

Read up on the installation procedures and the requirements for certifying the device for IFR flight... and you'll understand why there are so many flying around with "GPS for VFR use only" placards.
 
If you want to fly it IFR, you'll need an IA to sign the STC paperwork as well.
 
What is involved to make it IFR certified? Are there specific interference testing that needs to be done?
 
Marauder said:
What is involved to make it IFR certified? Are there specific interference testing that needs to be done?
Click to expand...

You need the proper CDI and annunciator, maybe something else... Then it needs to be flight tested and proven.
 
An A&P and A&P-IA are not the only ones that can completed the paper work and return these installations to service.

I'd locate a Avionics shop and ask if they will allow you to install the package.

They should know all the little things/ ideas/ shortcuts, that could save you a lot of problems.

What would you do when the smoke gets out? who will put it back? I am an A&P-IA, I don't even do my own electronic installations. unless it comes with a prewired and tested harness.
 
OBTW.... installing radios and GPSs are not the same as installing instruments.
 
wabower said:
The hand-helds are as good as the panel-mounts at about 10% of the cost. Just buy one and plug it in.
Click to expand...
Since the OP is planning on an instrument rating, I suspect he wants something with IFR capability, and a handheld ain't it. Other than that, as Doc and the others said, it's certainly possible if he has both the skill and an A&P willing to supervise and sign his work -- maybe an IA, if there's an STC involved.

As for IFR approval of the GPS, you need to start with a unit which is certified for IFR (like the Garmin 430) and then follow the appropriate instructions in the installation manual (there may be both VFR and IFR instructions). That may include additional periphrals like an annunciator and separate CDI (or hook-up to an existing VOR CDI through a VOR/GPS selector switch). Then, the entire installation has to be tested IAW the instructions and the paperwork signed by the mechanic.
 
Tom-D said:
An A&P and A&P-IA are not the only ones that can completed the paper work and return these installations to service.

I'd locate a Avionics shop and ask if they will allow you to install the package.
Click to expand...
Most avionics shops are certified repair stations, and cannot let anyone but their own employees do any of the work. See 14 CFR 145.151.
 
It takes a certified radio shop to sign off an IFR install according to my FSDO. The inspector says a mechanics signature is not acceptable for this.
Maybe in Cowbell, Idaho your mileage may vary.

I can tell you are making the right decision - but let me add to the others who cautioned, that the chances of you installing it 'all alone' and having it actually work (ignoring regulations, etc.) are pretty slim.
I don't care what electronics experience you think you have, avionics is a different world.
Now, if you can get a certified shop to let you help and they sign it off - well, good luck on that.
 
Dr. O said:
It takes a certified radio shop to sign off an IFR install according to my FSDO. The inspector says a mechanics signature is not acceptable for this.
Click to expand...
Did you ask them for a regulation or AC which says that? Really, it only takes an IA if an STC or field approval is involved. Of course, there are probably a lot of A&P's who for any number of reasons would decline the opportunity to do a full soup-to-nuts GTN750 installation, but there is no regulation saying they can't unless an STC is involved and they don't have an IA. The only time a certified repair station with radio rating would be required is to go inside the radios, not to install them.
 
He said the IR was "down the road." Why spend $10k now, since at this point he doesn't even have an airplane, a PPL or a clue, when the same capabilities can be had on a 696 (with a bigger screen, radar and traffic) for a tiny fraction of the cost?

I have both in the plane, and use the 696 much more than the 430. When the next Garmin hand-held whizbox comes along, I can upgrade for peanuts compared to jacking around with the panel-mount stuff.

Ron Levy said:
Since the OP is planning on an instrument rating, I suspect he wants something with IFR capability, and a handheld ain't it. Other than that, as Doc and the others said, it's certainly possible if he has both the skill and an A&P willing to supervise and sign his work -- maybe an IA, if there's an STC involved.

As for IFR approval of the GPS, you need to start with a unit which is certified for IFR (like the Garmin 430) and then follow the appropriate instructions in the installation manual (there may be both VFR and IFR instructions). That may include additional periphrals like an annunciator and separate CDI (or hook-up to an existing VOR CDI through a VOR/GPS selector switch). Then, the entire installation has to be tested IAW the instructions and the paperwork signed by the mechanic.
Click to expand...
 
We have done this twice. The first was about 5 years ago with a Garmin 430 in a C172. We discussed the install with our FSDO who encouraged us to install the unit and call it VFR. Then do all the testing and a field approval. We built up the wiring harnesses and did the install, did the testing, and our inspector approved only the IFR approval (testing IAW the STC). Building up the wiring harnesses was a lot of work with lots of opportunity for errors. When Garmin offered the 430 to 430W upgrade, with did that and followed the upgrade STC which we executed and sent to FAA records.

Last year we put a 430W in a C172 that was a tail wheel conversion. This time we bought the Approach FastStack hub system and the install was much easier and trouble free. All functions were connected up such as communication between a 496 and 430W, and Xm radio, etc. This was a bit more expensive but i think the install was much better than our field wired system. We Followed the STC and turned in a 337. No FSDO approval needed.

mitch CFI-ATP-A&P/IA
 
It depends on what kind of certificate your aircraft has.

E-AB - get it done. No problems.

Type certified - if you don't get the proper signoffs from the people who have the proper piece of plastic, the airplane will crash into the nearest school for handicapped children.
 
wabower said:
I have both in the plane, and use the 696 much more than the 430. When the next Garmin hand-held whizbox comes along, I can upgrade for peanuts compared to jacking around with the panel-mount stuff.
Click to expand...

I would too! The 696 has a much better & larger display. I personally no longer care for 430's and wouldn't want one.

BTW--- for our "experimentals" & solid state auto-pilots.........the 696 has the required signals to drive these units. Numerous other hand-helds do too, along with the older Garmin 196,296,396 & 496. As mentioned, not for IFR.
 
Ron Levy said:
Most avionics shops are certified repair stations, and cannot let anyone but their own employees do any of the work. See 14 CFR 145.151.
Click to expand...

and many are not.
 
Ron Levy said:
Did you ask them for a regulation or AC which says that? Really, it only takes an IA if an STC or field approval is involved. Of course, there are probably a lot of A&P's who for any number of reasons would decline the opportunity to do a full soup-to-nuts GTN750 installation, but there is no regulation saying they can't unless an STC is involved and they don't have an IA. The only time a certified repair station with radio rating would be required is to go inside the radios, not to install them.
Click to expand...

The FSDO feels the A&P does not comply with FAR 43. for the tools and equipment to complete the job.

I know I couldn't do it, for the lack of tools, plus I have never completed one prior or been shown how to do one (FAR 65.81)
 
Tom-D said:
The FSDO feels the A&P does not comply with FAR 43. for the tools and equipment to complete the job.

I know I couldn't do it, for the lack of tools, plus I have never completed one prior or been shown how to do one (FAR 65.81)
Click to expand...
I thought it went without saying that a mechanic is prohibited from doing anything for which s/he lacks the appropriate tools/equipment. Just as you pointed out that some avionics shops are not certified repair stations, I'm sure there are many A&P's with the tools, equipment, knowledge and experience to do an IFR GPS installation (even if you're not one of them). But for a FSDO to make the blanket statement that only a certified repair station with radio rating is allowed to do an IFR GPS installation and sign off the IFR approval is overstepping their authority and without legal basis.
 
My MX shop is not a CRS or an avionics shop. Some of the mechanics have avionics experience. They installed and signed off a 430W in my plane. They say it's easier for them if the unit is STC'd for most of the fleet (like the 430W) rather than a field approval (like the 430) that has a single aircraft listed on the STC and requires more paperwork and hassle for other make/models.

Tom-D said:
and many are not.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
My MX shop is not a CRS or an avionics shop. Some of the mechanics have avionics experience. They installed and signed off a 430W in my plane. They say it's easier for them if the unit is STC'd for most of the fleet (like the 430W) rather than a field approval (like the 430) that has a single aircraft listed on the STC and requires more paperwork and hassle for other make/models.
Click to expand...
Do they let owners come in and do the work themselves, and then sign it off?
 
Ron Levy said:
I thought it went without saying that a mechanic is prohibited from doing anything for which s/he lacks the appropriate tools/equipment. Just as you pointed out that some avionics shops are not certified repair stations, I'm sure there are many A&P's with the tools, equipment, knowledge and experience to do an IFR GPS installation (even if you're not one of them). But for a FSDO to make the blanket statement that only a certified repair station with radio rating is allowed to do an IFR GPS installation and sign off the IFR approval is overstepping their authority and without legal basis.
Click to expand...

I think as soon as you jamb them with the requirements, they will turn it around and require you to prove you are legal.

Thus, step one of the pizzing contest.

I believe that if you can find an A&P that you can show that you have installed a GPS or any other radio, that works as required they will be willing to sing it off.

then all you need to worry about is the next annual, and the proper paper work. If the installation is approved on a STC then the local A&P-IA can return it to service and the FSDO never sees it.

until the smoking hole occurs.
 
Depends on the owner. I don't happen to be one of them. I'm permitted to change the batteries in the headset, but that's the only complex electrical work with which I am entrusted.



Ron Levy said:
Do they let owners come in and do the work themselves, and then sign it off?
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Depends on the owner. I don't happen to be one of them. I'm permitted to change the batteries in the headset, but that's the only complex electrical work with which I am entrusted.
Click to expand...
is that an decision based upon experience? :)
 
Sac Arrow said:
You can't file as a /G with a yoke mount, if that matters. Plus it can't drive an autopilot if you have one.
Click to expand...
I was talking with a guy recently who says that he has a yoke mount that drives his AP and he flies IFR. He files /A, but ATC routinely gives him GPS vectors and approaches.

Can a panel yoke mount legally drive an AP?
 
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Jaybird180 said:
I was talking with a guy recently who says that he has a yoke mount that drives his AP and he flies IFR. He files /A, but ATC routinely gives him GPS vectors and approaches.

Can a panel mount legally drive an AP?
Click to expand...

Did you mean yoke mount?

I think a yoke mount can't directly drive (GPSS) the autopilot in a certified aircraft. Experimental, sure can if you wanted to go that way.

The closest to a yoke mount driving the autopilot in certified aircraft is through one of the certified "links" to a panel mount TSOd GPS. Aspen and Garmin both have links for uploading/updating flight plans.

Of course the panel mount GPS could be VFR only so it still wouldn't be legal to file /G with it. It can be complicated...
 
Jaybird180 said:
I was talking with a guy recently who says that he has a yoke mount that drives his AP and he flies IFR. He files /A, but ATC routinely gives him GPS vectors and approaches.

Can a panel mount legally drive an AP?
Click to expand...

You mean, "Can a yoke mount drive an A/P?" Can it? Technically yes, but not legal in a certified install, or maybe...:dunno:
 
One might also very carefully consider the potential risks / disadvantages of a used Garmin 430(W) vs. a new Garmin 650.

The non-WAAS models seem to go for around $5,000 to $6,000, the 430W for $6,500 - $7,500, sometimes even more. Used, no warranty, cut wires, possibly damaged antenna, sooner ending factory support etc.. Brand new GTN650s start at just under $10,000.

For me, personally, a non-WAAS GPS doesn't make much sense and savings of only around 30% of a used 430W over a new 650 don't IMHO outweigh the disadvantages that come with it. Including installation, the savings would probably only be around 10 - 20% and the 650 is NOT a plug'n'play replacement for the 430, in case the used unit fails or one wants to upgrade for another reason.
 
Cheapest way to get a WAAS GPS to drive your panel is a Garmin 400w. That and a Flightstream 210 gets you a lot of capability.
 
Henning said:
Cheapest way to get a WAAS GPS to drive your panel is a Garmin 400w. That and a Flightstream 210 gets you a lot of capability.
Click to expand...

Sarasota Avionics list the GTN-625 (GPS only version of the 650) for $7,889. If purchased in combination with a Flightstream, Garmin grants a rebate of $1,000, what pretty much means that Garmin adds it for free.

How much cheaper would a used 400W + Flightstream be than the GTN-625 + Flightstream package? $2,000? I don't think this justifies the risks, related to a used, discontinued GPS and to go through all the trouble to have it installed.
 
German guy said:
Sarasota Avionics list the GTN-625 (GPS only version of the 650) for $7,889. If purchased in combination with a Flightstream, Garmin grants a rebate of $1,000, what pretty much means that Garmin adds it for free.

How much cheaper would a used 400W + Flightstream be than the GTN-625 + Flightstream package? $2,000? I don't think this justifies the risks, related to a used, discontinued GPS and to go through all the trouble to have it installed.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you are concerned with GNS becoming unsupported in its practical lifespan, Garmin is pretty good about maintaining support. Do I think the 625 is a better buy than the 400w? Yep, and I would certainly go that route on a fresh install, although I would probably spring for the 725 and get the screen real-estate, same reason I went with a G-500 instead of an Aspen, except it's even more important with touch screen.
 
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