Incipient spin - YIKES!

[flyersfan31]

I was out practicing today, just basic stuff like steep turns, s-turns, etc. It had been a while, and the day was nice, so why not. Did a couple power on/power off stalls, no problem. Now, I haven't done stalls in my plane for a while because the rudder is still slightly out of rig. The A&P has adjusted it, needs one more tweak. At any rate, I knew that might be a problem in stalls, so I was paying extra attention to the ball. Still, the first 2-3 went fine (I didn't hold them forever).

Ah, heck, let's do one more power-on stall. I was dancing on the pedals a bit more, and held it for a hair too long. All of a sudden, right wing drops like snapping your fingers and I'm looking at the ground. All I can think, no kidding, is "Uh oh. I hope I can fix this." Not very helpful.

Fortunately, my left foot didn't wait for instructions, and things snapped back in place quickly. Ailerons going neutral seemed like a natural thing to do, I don't remember explicitly thinking about doing it, I just did. Then I'm sitting there, still pointed at the ground but stable and thought, "hmmm, what else -- oh yeah, throttle."

Problem solved. I only went maybe a 1/4 turn, so it wasn't fully involved. Ho hum for most of the folks here, but for me... I just entered the 250th hour in my logbook, have only had my ticket since the beginning of '06, and I've never seen a spin except in the movies. I always thought I'd soil myself if I entered a spin. Thank god I've been obsessive about studying spins to prepare myself.

And yeah, I'm getting that rudder rigged properly this week!

 

[Danos]

I've been doing some spin training. It's lots of fun! I had a bit of apprehension going into it but it's really no biggie. I just had to see what was on the other side of it. At any rate, I'm glad you made it out. Were you in a Piper? I did my private training in the Piper but it wasn't approved for spins.

 

[flyersfan31]

Sundowner. Aerobatic models are approved for spins. Mine isn't. I didn't intend to get the practice! I've been meaning to do spin/unusual attitude training. Time to get off my duff and do it!

 

[Tarheel Pilot]

I've been doing some spin training. It's lots of fun! I had a bit of apprehension going into it but it's really no biggie. I just had to see what was on the other side of it. At any rate, I'm glad you made it out. Were you in a Piper? I did my private training in the Piper but it wasn't approved for spins.

Hmm, I didn't know Pipers weren't certified for spins, now that just brings up the spin training I received in the Cherokee 140....

 

[CJones]

Glad you had taught yourself enough to get out of it. I did my PPL in a 152 which is approved for spins, so of course we did some spin training. If you can find a FBO and CFI in the area that will do them, you should consider taking the time to go out and enter into a full spin (more like a very steep spiral in the 152) and practice recoveries. Not only does it make you more apt at recovering from things like you just mentioned, it's also pretty fun.

If I remember correctly, some 172's are also approved for spins as long as you stay within a certain CG/load area.

 

[Danos]

Glad you had taught yourself enough to get out of it. I did my PPL in a 152 which is approved for spins, so of course we did some spin training. If you can find a FBO and CFI in the area that will do them, you should consider taking the time to go out and enter into a full spin (more like a very steep spiral in the 152) and practice recoveries. Not only does it make you more apt at recovering from things like you just mentioned, it's also pretty fun.

If I remember correctly, some 172's are also approved for spins as long as you stay within a certain CG/load area.

I'm parcticing in the 172. We cant go out with full tanks to do it. They're actually harder to spin than the 152 because they're so stable. We only get 3, maybe 4 spins out of it before it recovers itself. I would like to get myself some practice in the 152.

 

[AdamZ]

Four things:

1) Glad you got out of it

2) There are two guys at Wings that give spin and unusual attitude training. Bruce Everett and some other guy I don't know his name

3) Not surprised you were on the ball so to speak. Besides having flown with you I flew with Todd Newberry today (subject of another thread) He was telling me he missed teaching except didn't miss some students trying to spin him. He said " The weren't all as serious and competent as Andrew Morrison"

4) When the heck are you gonna tell us about the Western IFR adventure?

 

[poadeleted20]

The older Hershey-bar wing 140-180 Cherokees were approved for spins when loaded within Utility category limits, but the taper-wing Warrior, et alia, are not.

 

[jesse]

Fortunately, my left foot didn't wait for instructions, and things snapped back in place quickly. Ailerons going neutral seemed like a natural thing to do, I don't remember explicitly thinking about doing it, I just did. Then I'm sitting there, still pointed at the ground but stable and thought, "hmmm, what else -- oh yeah, throttle."

I'm a little curious about the ailerons going neutral. Where were the ailerons during the stall?

 

[Tarheel Pilot]

The older Hershey-bar wing 140-180 Cherokees were approved for spins when loaded within Utility category limits, but the taper-wing Warrior, et alia, are not.

Ahh, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Graueradler]

At least some Pipers are certified for spins. There is an FAA SAIB regurgitating a Piper bulletin reviewing how to spin a Cherokee 140.

 

[flyersfan31]

If they weren't neutral, I made sure they were. If they already were, then I guess I didn't have to move them. The wing break and staring down at the ground thing kind of had my attention, and are etched in my memory. The rest is a bit of a blur.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If I remember correctly, some 172's are also approved for spins as long as you stay within a certain CG/load area.

Yes, utility category W&B limits, and nothing in the back seat or baggage compartment.

 

[SupraPilot]

I had something similar to this happen to me when i was training...

I did all my trianing in tigers but a few flights i took the c152 ... i was out on a solo flight practicing and i did a power off stall and did the same thing..
It was a long time ago so i cant rememeber if i was uncoordinated or not...But just like you explained..i just started the stall and next thing i know the left wind dipped and the nose swung to the left as i stalled...his all happeend in a split second...my natural reaction was just opposite everything...my right foot went to the floor, full power, and i yanked the yoke hard to the right...at the time i wasnt sure if it was the correct thing to do but it got me out of the spin...
i dont think i entered a full spin but it was damn close and it was definitely scary...to this day i still get a little nervous when doing a stall...


Ant

 

[colomtnflyer]

I can remember when I was working on my own PPL, and was learning to do stalls, I spun my instr twice on 2 successive attempts... Boy did I learn quickly not to be lazy with my feet!

While teaching at the USAFA, I had a Major (C141 pilot) who wanted to get his CFI. In accordance, he and I went out to do some spin training in a C172L, a model before the drooped leading edge.
I explained to him what was going to happen, but still he froze the first time it snapped over... He really locked up! After I recovered it, and we went over the whole procedure again, he started nailing them. He just was shocked at how quickly the plane would roll over if uncoordinated

 

[KennyFlys]

I can remember when I was working on my own PPL, and was learning to do stalls, I spun my instr twice on 2 successive attempts... Boy did I learn quickly not to be lazy with my feet!

While teaching at the USAFA, I had a Major (C141 pilot) who wanted to get his CFI. In accordance, he and I went out to do some spin training in a C172L, a model before the drooped leading edge.
I explained to him what was going to happen, but still he froze the first time it snapped over... He really locked up! After I recovered it, and we went over the whole procedure again, he started nailing them. He just was shocked at how quickly the plane would roll over if uncoordinated

Yep, a Skyhawk does have a bit less mass to move around than a Starlifter. I can't even picture rolling a Starlifter but I'm sure they've been on their side just has been a Stratofortress.

 

[JasonCT]

But the big question is... Did your shorts make it out ok?

 

[nosehair]

i dont think i entered a full spin but it was damn close and it was definitely scary...to this day i still get a little nervous when doing a stall...


Ant

..Yeah..., so, the question here is...why don't you get an instructor to do a few spins with you, so you can lose that "little nervous" feeling?

aarrg,..how can you enjoy the flying thing if this little "mental grinch" is lurkin' there in the forever background??...

 

[Ken Ibold]

What do you mean by the rudder not being properly rigged? If it's flying with the ball out of center, that's probably just the trim tab. No need for a mechanic. Just bend it a little, test fly it, repeat as necessary.

 

[Ken Ibold]

my natural reaction was just opposite everything...my right foot went to the floor, full power, and i yanked the yoke hard to the right...at the time i wasnt sure if it was the correct thing to do but it got me out of the spin...

In a lot of airplanes that would have gotten you into trouble. Opposite aileron can aggravate things. Power in a spin can flatten it. Bad juju.

In typical fixed gear/prop singles like Skyhawks etc, just let go of everything and retard power, and it'll fly out of it. Sometimes you have to nudge rudder opposite the spin.

 

[jesse]

I had something similar to this happen to me when i was training...

I did all my trianing in tigers but a few flights i took the c152 ... i was out on a solo flight practicing and i did a power off stall and did the same thing..
It was a long time ago so i cant rememeber if i was uncoordinated or not...But just like you explained..i just started the stall and next thing i know the left wind dipped and the nose swung to the left as i stalled...his all happeend in a split second...my natural reaction was just opposite everything...my right foot went to the floor, full power, and i yanked the yoke hard to the right...at the time i wasnt sure if it was the correct thing to do but it got me out of the spin...
i dont think i entered a full spin but it was damn close and it was definitely scary...to this day i still get a little nervous when doing a stall...


Ant

You really should go over this with an spin competent instructor. You want the recovery to be thoughtless and natural. You don't want there to be a fear of it instead you want there to be an instant response.

You also want the instant response to be the correct response because what you write above may work in a Cessna but in other airplanes you'd be in a world of hurt. It'd also be a good time to review your local airspace and sectionals.

There is no reason to fear a stall. A fear and lack of understanding of stalls will cause problems in every other flying skill. People that fear stalls are the ones that spin into the ground in the pattern. They are too afraid to slow the airplane down to landing speed because of their fear of the stall. They are too afraid to bank as required to make their turn. They have so many fears and so little understanding that they don't recognize the real danger and the real trouble.

I once was flying with a pilot whom had a fear of one two many things and no understanding for what he feared. There were some pretty strong winds aloft that day and he was pilot in command. I was just looking out the window for traffic and pretty much just enjoying aviation. All of the sudden I heard the stall warning go off. At this same moment I felt how uncoordinated we were and noticed we were at about a 30 degree bank. The noise of the stall warning scared him and he reacted to it. His reaction was to pull on the yoke since he was afraid of the ground. He didn't even bother to return to coordinated flight. He kept it in the bank. I don't think he even knew we weren't coordinated. I waited for him to do something. He was the pilot. All of the sudden the nose started to do the classic pre-stall Cessna up/down motion and my foot went to the right rudder pedal and I pushed the yoke forward. What happened scared me. It scared me because I wasn't paying attention. It also scared me because I know if that stall warning wouldn't have went off we would have been a statistic.

Some of you will read that and know exactly what happened. Others will read that and not really get it. The ones that instantly understand the situation are the pilots that are comfortable with stalls and spins. The ones that don't--don't really get it. So let me explain.

This pilot was afraid of stalling and spinning by banking steep in the pattern. A lot of instructors teach students not to bank more than 30 degrees in the pattern and this gets hard coded in their head. Since the winds aloft were so strong that day we were going really fast on base. The pilot realized he was going to overshoot his turn to final so he pulled the power back to try to slow down and at the same time banked to his maximum of 30 degrees. He was still going to overshoot that turn to final so he started to push on the left rudder pedal to "cheat the turn". He was also afraid of stalls so he didn't want the nose to drop so he kept a little back pressure on the yoke. The pilot had placed us in a perfect configuration to spin into the ground to our deaths. He did this because he didn't have any understanding of what will actually cause a spin and what will not. At the same time he didn't want to admit to me that he overshot final so he was doing everything he knew to try to make the turn.

If this pilot would have really understood how to fly he would have banked as steep as it took. He would of let the nose fall into the turn and he would have kept it coordinated or a slight slip (half of ball out of lines on turn coordinator). Of course he still to this day would consider that dangerous. Since that's more than 30 degrees.

This incident really scared me later when I started to think about it. It also really ****ed this other pilot off. He still had no idea why that situation was so dangerous and why I responded with the control inputs I did. I felt bad for having to do something but at the same time it was my life and he wasn't respecting it. I was mad at myself for not paying attention to the situation and for allowing myself to just look out the window. I was thankful for whoever invented the stall warning as that is what triggered the "something is wrong" process in my head and made me pay attention. I was also thankful that I've spent so many hours doing stalls for fun. I understood what was going on and what was about to happen. This one flight made it very hard for me to ride backseat in an airplane. I won't do it unless I have to and there are only a handful of pilots that I can do it with comfortably. I never even wrote about this because I was so mad at myself for letting the situation get that dangerous.

If you read that first paragraph and didn't notice how the pilot had set us up for a perfect spin entry. Please do yourself a favor and get some more training. It's cheap when you think of what is at stake. Spins are something I want to understand very well which is why I want to do more spin training.

 

[flyersfan31]

What do you mean by the rudder not being properly rigged? If it's flying with the ball out of center, that's probably just the trim tab. No need for a mechanic. Just bend it a little, test fly it, repeat as necessary.

No tabs on most Sundowners. Allegedly only the ones that needed tweaking at the factory got them.

 

[KennyFlys]

You really should go over this with an spin competent instructor. You want the recovery to be thoughtless and natural. You don't want there to be a fear of it instead you want there to be an instant response.

You also want the instant response to be the correct response because what you write above may work in a Cessna but in other airplanes you'd be in a world of hurt.

<snip>

If you read that first paragraph and didn't notice how the pilot had set us up for a perfect spin entry. Please do yourself a favor and get some more training. It's cheap when you think of what is at stake. Spins are something I want to understand very well which is why I want to do more spin training.

I agree wholeheartedly. In preparation for CFI training, I went for spin training sign-off but I'm not stopping there. I accomplished the requirements on the first flight but I'm wanting to take this quite a bit further and continue with extensive upset recovery training.

The only way to be immune from the unusual attitudes leading to stalls and spins is to do them to excess with constant practice at recovery. They should be performed from all possible attitudes including skids, slips, steep turns and even a nose-down descent.

Doing these with an accomplished aerobatic instructor is your best bet. An instructor who is adept at these maneuvers and already immune from any potential attitude will provide you the safety margin required. An aerobatic aircraft such as the Super Decathlon, Pitts or Extra 300 will do the trick. Hunt around for suggestions. You'll find the right instructor and plane for your needs.

I did receive one warning before my first flight: "If you throw up in my airplane, I'll have to kill you. I have a charter flight to New York tomorrow. Don't make me miss it by being in jail!"

 

[tonycondon]

Yea getting good spin training is never really a bad thing. I did the cursory hour or so in a 152 before getting my CFI. Not until I got some great spin training in gliders, and especially after spinning the extra with Chip, did I get really comfortable with teaching spins. I was up with a student the other day and he let a power on stall go incipient. we maybe made a quarter rotation, but he recovered well. His comment to me "how can you be so calm!?" Once you know what happens having a wing drop is a non event and easily recoverable. nothing to get your blood pressure up about.

 

[Diana]

What do you mean by the rudder not being properly rigged? If it's flying with the ball out of center, that's probably just the trim tab. No need for a mechanic. Just bend it a little, test fly it, repeat as necessary.

Speaking of rigging, my mechanic tried four variations of rigging last weekend, and we went up and did test flights after every trial. It was quite interesting. He finally put washout back in the wings for me and now when the right wing drops when stalling, it doesn't do so quite as dramatically.

 

[jshawley]

"The pilot realized he was going to overshoot his turn to final so he pulled the power back to try to slow down and at the same time banked to his maximum of 30 degrees. He was still going to overshoot that turn to final so he started to push on the left rudder pedal to "cheat the turn". He was also afraid of stalls so he didn't want the nose to drop so he kept a little back pressure on the yoke. The pilot had placed us in a perfect configuration to spin into the ground to our deaths."

Classic textbook. Glad you were "assertive" Jesse. Nice to have you around--an' we wanna keep you around.

Y'all keep safe up there, y'hear?

Jim

 

[SupraPilot]

Ok well like i said ... that incedent happend along time ago... i have a bit more flight hours under my belt now and have a bunch of spin and attitude recovery training as well...this happened early in my training solo flights..so i was sure that i told my instructor to go over this with me...
For me pretty much any unusual attitude will get my nerves going a little bit...im more of a straight, level , and fast type of person...
and i can still get myself out of trouble..

Ant

 

[PHXAvi8tor]

I was out practicing today, just basic stuff like steep turns, s-turns, etc. It had been a while, and the day was nice, so why not. Did a couple power on/power off stalls, no problem. Now, I haven't done stalls in my plane for a while because the rudder is still slightly out of rig. The A&P has adjusted it, needs one more tweak. At any rate, I knew that might be a problem in stalls, so I was paying extra attention to the ball. Still, the first 2-3 went fine (I didn't hold them forever).

Ah, heck, let's do one more power-on stall. I was dancing on the pedals a bit more, and held it for a hair too long. All of a sudden, right wing drops like snapping your fingers and I'm looking at the ground. All I can think, no kidding, is "Uh oh. I hope I can fix this." Not very helpful.

Fortunately, my left foot didn't wait for instructions, and things snapped back in place quickly. Ailerons going neutral seemed like a natural thing to do, I don't remember explicitly thinking about doing it, I just did. Then I'm sitting there, still pointed at the ground but stable and thought, "hmmm, what else -- oh yeah, throttle."

Problem solved. I only went maybe a 1/4 turn, so it wasn't fully involved. Ho hum for most of the folks here, but for me... I just entered the 250th hour in my logbook, have only had my ticket since the beginning of '06, and I've never seen a spin except in the movies. I always thought I'd soil myself if I entered a spin. Thank god I've been obsessive about studying spins to prepare myself.

And yeah, I'm getting that rudder rigged properly this week!

I tried to carefully re-created the spin entry as described above, and things still don't quite add up.

Here is what I think happened:

1. Most planes exhibit strong left-turning tendencies during a power-on stall. Why? P-factor and torque, primarily!

2. This means you have to really use a lot of RIGHT rudder as you enter the power-on stall. And, you have to hold that right rudder to keep the ball centered and your nose on your outside reference point.

3. From your description above, you had way too much right rudder, and were over-correcting.

That would and should advance it into a spin entry, for sure.

But, rather than kicking in left rudder, you usually just need to relax the right rudder during the stall onset.

If you kick in hard left rudder, you may aggravate the situation.

As for spins in a Cherokee, the recovery procedure is different than that in a high-wing airplane. It's basically "RATS." That stands for:

Rudder Full Opposite.
Ailerons Neutral and Yoke Full Foward.
Throttle Off.
Stabilator as required to smoothly regain level flight altitude.

 

[KennyFlys]

As for spins in a Cherokee, the recovery procedure is different than that in a high-wing airplane. It's basically "RATS." That stands for:

Rudder Full Opposite.
Ailerons Neutral and Yoke Full Foward.
Throttle Off.
Stabilator as required to smoothly regain level flight altitude.

Power off before opposite rudder??? I've not flown a low wing and my upset recovery training is in a Super D. So, I need some help understanding that one.

 

[jesse]

As for spins in a Cherokee, the recovery procedure is different than that in a high-wing airplane. It's basically "RATS." That stands for:

Rudder Full Opposite.
Ailerons Neutral and Yoke Full Foward.
Throttle Off.
Stabilator as required to smoothly regain level flight altitude.

How is that different? Counteract the spin with the rudder and reduce the loading on the wings by pushing the yoke forward.

It should all be one fast movement. Throttle should already be in the hand. Pull it to idle. Full Opposite Rudder. and yoke forward briskly.

I'm not a big fan of teaching a verbal checklist for this. It needs to be an INSTANT response that is programmed into your brain. You may not have time to think about it. I promise you if you enter a spin you are going to react. The reaction is either going to be:

1.) Freeze up, Brain quits, Everything quits.
2.) You do the wrong thing
3.) You do the right thing

You want to program that right thing in. That's what spin training is all about. If you spin from power on you don't want to be sitting there "OK...uhh..RATS..my instructor said to..uh..,.R...Rudder there we go!.....A..what is a...uh...ok ok Ailerons.....ok... T..****..T...oh throttle!..which way up or down? ****."

 

[flyersfan31]

That's pretty much it. I just held the stall for too too long, ended up dancing on the rudder pedals and overcorrected, as you speculated. Whether I took pressure off the right or actually pushed the left in the recovery, well, that's a bit of a blur. At least my mind was thinking the right way. However, it did feel as though the aircraft was doing everything it could to help me get back into controlled flight. That's why they call them trainers!!

It was a good experience to have, even if I would rather have had it in more controlled circumstances.

 

[nosehair]

It was a good experience to have, even if I would rather have had it in more controlled circumstances.

This is the very best.

The very best training you can ever get is what happens to you alone that scares your heart up into you mouth.

You just can't buy that kind of training.

 

[sbonek]

This is the very best.

The very best training you can ever get is what happens to you alone that scares your heart up into you mouth.

You just can't buy that kind of training.

speaking of that.. ok not specifically scaring yourself, but how does everybody approach getting practice with stalls, steep turns, etc... do you also do that with a CFI (or at least a safety pilot in the right seat), or do you practice those will solo?

 

[Danos]

speaking of that.. ok not specifically scaring yourself, but how does everybody approach getting practice with stalls, steep turns, etc... do you also do that with a CFI (or at least a safety pilot in the right seat), or do you practice those will solo?

I do them both with and without my instructor. The commercial maneuvers have a lot of climbing turns which affect both your stall speed and likelyhood of a spin. Not to mention they're right on the edge of the performance envelope without actually busting it. This is why I wanted to get some spin experience before going and doing them solo.
I think it's important for many resons to do them both ways. Most importantly, the change in performance parameters due to weight. For instance, when doing a lazy eight, the power setting is crucial. I got the feel of it and was able to nail them with my insructor in the plane. When I went out to do them solo for the first time using the same settigns I couldnt get the stall horn to go off and I was comming out of it too hot and therefore too high. The 190 lb. weight change made a definite noticeable difference in the power setting.
A stall or spin can occur in any weight and balllance situation only the envelopes change. The feeling of not having your instructor to bail you out is also a more realistic thing.

 

[jesse]

speaking of that.. ok not specifically scaring yourself, but how does everybody approach getting practice with stalls, steep turns, etc... do you also do that with a CFI (or at least a safety pilot in the right seat), or do you practice those will solo?

I do them on every flight. Stalls in a 172 are a great way to chop and drop and lose altitude. Steep turns are the same thing. Get comfortable with both of them and they are just another trick in the book--no more special than hitting the flap switch on landing.

I haven't received training from an instructor since my private other than required checkouts at new FBOs and the little flying I did with Chip in the Extra.

 

[tonycondon]

I haven't received training from an instructor since my private other than required checkouts at new FBOs and the little flying I did with Chip in the Extra.

yea and a trip to arkansas and back, and maybe a glider intro or a couple landings in a supercub.

 

[jesse]

yea and a trip to arkansas and back

Lotsa instruction going on there

and maybe a glider intro or a couple landings in a supercub.

ok. you've got me. something like .2 in a glider....and two landings in a super cub, with it too loud to even hear you. and too short to see an instrument. lol

 

[midlifeflyer]

speaking of that.. ok not specifically scaring yourself, but how does everybody approach getting practice with stalls, steep turns, etc... do you also do that with a CFI (or at least a safety pilot in the right seat), or do you practice those will solo?

What's the safety pilot for?

There 'might' be some argument about stalls, but what's the big deal about steep turns? It's just a maneuver

 

[Chache]

What's the safety pilot for?

Looking out for School busses

You heard that one no??
Man takes his blonde girlfriend for her first flight, and during the pax briefing told her to keep an eye out for other traffic.....
" Oh you mean like School busses? " she replied......

Fuggedaboudid!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

speaking of that.. ok not specifically scaring yourself, but how does everybody approach getting practice with stalls, steep turns, etc... do you also do that with a CFI (or at least a safety pilot in the right seat), or do you practice those will solo?

I practice 'em solo.

A CFI is a great thing, if you need or want one.

A safety pilot is utterly pointless, IMHO. Just one more person to kill if you botch the maneuver, unless they're comfortable with recovering from the right seat and you've briefed them that you want help before the poop hits the prop.

Solo is fine, if you're comfortable with the maneuvers. However, it could be argued that if you're not comfortable with the maneuvers, you shouldn't be flying solo at all. If you're not comfortable with stall recoveries, for instance, how are you going to react when you enter one inadvertently?