In-Flight Mag Checks

Late to the thread and haven't bothered reading 80 posts, but:

@raynb - what kind of moron is flying along and says, "What can I do to **** this up? Hmmm.. I'll practice trying to stop this smooth running engine."

Remember the lovely tale about someone failing one engine to show how single engine operation is safe? That didn't get a lot of "yah, I need to do that more often" replies, it got a bent airplane.

While you're at it... flying along and everything is great, turn that fuel selector to off. Wait for the engine to quit. Switch the fuel back on. Gotta prove the starter and or wind milling prop will restart the engine, right?

There's a time and a place to test the systems. The time is before take-off. The place is on the ground.

Find a POH supporting this stupidity and I'll eat my hat. And continue to not do it.
 
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Ok....now that we've done all the cruise and higher RPM mag checks.....now, do one at low speed/idle. This checks the low voltage (low RPM) high current capabilities of the ignition system. You'll find wiring issues, bad distributor gear, and other stuff. Trust me on this.....it's quick and easy. Many of these issues will not show up at higher RPMs.....
 
I do it routinely, helped me diagnose a specific fouled plug once. I do, however take advantage of where it takes place, usually within gliding distance of an airport!
 
You couldn’t pay me to do this.

If you have Gami’s you have to do this in flight to obtain you Gami spread. Not a big deal.


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One day back when I was still a kid I somehow inadvertently didn't get my mag switch back to both when doing my runup checks and flew my 150 from Winslow to Albuquerque on the right mag only. Does that count?
 
Definitely a BAD IDEA! Mag checks are performed on the ground for a reason. They identify a potential problem BEFORE that problem could cause an issue in the air. The only reason one would have to do something like this in the air would be in diagnosing a problem that popped up during flight. However, if that problem in engine performance was enough to make you hunt for an issue, your time would be better spent in searching for the nearest available airport to land. Nothing about checking the mag in the air would make a problem any better so what benefit could there possibly be in doing something like this? There are MANY downsides to doing an in-flight mag check and no upsides that I can think of.

I disagree. The engine needs to have its ignition system working perfectly at altitude and leaned. This will not show up on a runup at full mixture and 2000rpm. Hence the reason to inflight mag checks. I have had this exact problem the last few months on my Comanche with a -540. I noticed that a couple cylinders were getting hotter than normal (410-415 climb 390-400 in cruise). Above 7000ft I found out that a cylinder would shut off when my mag was switched to ground the right, but not all cylinder would shut off. Turns out the plug wires use air as in insulator and as the air thins, you can get arching in the wire that can cause a pre-ignition or an advance in timing situation. This cannot be found on the ground, even in a full power runup. I tried and cannot duplicate it on the ground. So plug wires and a Surefly Mag will be on the next annual. I did have a lot of engine work done on the last annual and i think a plug wire got damaged in the process.
 
I tried and cannot duplicate it on the ground. So plug wires and a Surefly Mag will be on the next annual.

You used this "excellent" diagnostic to discover an issue and immediately deferred resolution to your next annual?

Quite the endorsement.
 
Find a POH supporting this stupidity and I'll eat my hat. And continue to not do it.

From the 172N POH, page 3-16: https://wayman.edu/files/Cessna-172N-POH.pdf

upload_2020-12-25_16-44-14.png

The 182Q POH has exactly the same thing in it; page 3-16: http://kirtlandflightcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/C182-POH.pdf

Piper PA-28-181 Archer POH, page3-4: https://ramaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/PA28-181-POH.pdf

upload_2020-12-25_16-51-24.png

Beech Bonanza 36, A36 POH/AFM, page 3-5: https://jasonblair.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Beechcraft-Bonanza-A36-AFM.pdf

upload_2020-12-25_16-55-13.png

Mooney M20J POH, page 3-6: https://pilotage.e-monsite.com/medias/files/m20j-poh3203b.pdf

upload_2020-12-25_16-58-13.png

Cessna T206H AFM, pages 3-22 and 3-23: http://blueskyaviation.cz/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/POH_T206H-OK-MCP.pdf

upload_2020-12-25_17-2-20.png

Cirrus SR22 POH, page 3-14, under partial power loss: https://jasonblair.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Cirrus-SR22-POH.pdf

upload_2020-12-25_17-13-53.png

I could find many more. You can start eating that hat now. A bit of mustard or ketchup will help it go down easier.
 
I’ve been routinely performing an in-flight check...

So, does anyone else do in-flight mag checks on a regular basis?
There’s a difference between doing this when you suspect you aren’t getting power and just doing it because *you* are a nervous nelly. Use your book numbers, set your power, fuel flow, etc... run mag checks if you suspect something to be wrong. All of the above POH references are in reference to rough running engines, not normal ops, although doing it to “practice” an emergency isn’t likely to hurt you. And yes, my crew has made a precautionary landing for a scenario like this and it got worse as we approached the airport and a mag was slipping off it’s timing seriously. In fact, the rental aircraft’s owner couldn’t even get plane to start for troubleshooting when he arrived to look at it.
 
There’s a difference between doing this when you suspect you aren’t getting power and just doing it because *you* are a nervous nelly.
I haven’t done these in-flight checks out of nervousness.
 
Which of those say to do it with a smooth running engine? Reading is difficult, I know, but thanks for playing.
Do you really think the airframe and engine manufacturers would recommend fooling with the mag switch if it posed a sigificant risk of making things worse? Wouldn't they overtly prohibit it instead?
 
Do you really think the airframe and engine manufacturers would recommend fooling with the mag switch if it posed a sigificant risk of making things worse? Wouldn't they overtly prohibit it instead?

You really are just playing now, right? None of your referenced POH's had it in their "Normal Operation" sections or checklists, did they?

I seem to recall there is a section in the Cirrus POH about BRS deployment. Should people follow that process from time to time to test it?

You keen on killing the master switch in cruise too, or did you read the little bit about how that's if you suspect electrical fire?
 
I'd like to know how many pilots in the don't-monkey-with-the-mag-switch camp have real aircraft maintenance training and experience. How many of them understand magneto theory and mechanics? How many have had a mag switch apart? Or a magneto? What is their experience in troubleshooting engine malfunctions?

And by "maintenance experience" I don't mean cleaning and gapping sparkplugs or changing oil. I mean the real thing. For a living.

Dan
Retired CPL/IFR/CFI/AME (Aircraft Maintenance Engineer, the Canadian A&P/IA)
 
I'd like to know how many pilots in the don't-monkey-with-the-mag-switch camp have real aircraft maintenance training and experience. How many of them understand magneto theory and mechanics? How many have had a mag switch apart? Or a magneto? What is their experience in troubleshooting engine malfunctions?

And by "maintenance experience" I don't mean cleaning and gapping sparkplugs or changing oil. I mean the real thing. For a living.

Dan
Retired CPL/IFR/CFI/AME (Aircraft Maintenance Engineer, the Canadian A&P/IA)

That’s some strange logic. The POH doesn’t say “check mags in flight every 5 hours” it says “if you have a rough running engine...”
 
From the 172N POH, page 3-16: https://wayman.edu/files/Cessna-172N-POH.pdf

View attachment 92706

The 182Q POH has exactly the same thing in it; page 3-16: http://kirtlandflightcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/C182-POH.pdf

Piper PA-28-181 Archer POH, page3-4: https://ramaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/PA28-181-POH.pdf

View attachment 92707

Beech Bonanza 36, A36 POH/AFM, page 3-5: https://jasonblair.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Beechcraft-Bonanza-A36-AFM.pdf

View attachment 92708

Mooney M20J POH, page 3-6: https://pilotage.e-monsite.com/medias/files/m20j-poh3203b.pdf

View attachment 92709

Cessna T206H AFM, pages 3-22 and 3-23: http://blueskyaviation.cz/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/POH_T206H-OK-MCP.pdf

View attachment 92710

Cirrus SR22 POH, page 3-14, under partial power loss: https://jasonblair.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Cirrus-SR22-POH.pdf

View attachment 92711

I could find many more. You can start eating that hat now. A bit of mustard or ketchup will help it go down easier.

But those are all excerpts from the emergency procedures checklist for troubleshooting a rough running engine. In flight mag checks do not appear in the normal procedures, nor should they.
 
If it's safe to check it if the engine is rough, it's safe to check it if it's smooth. If it wasn't safe when smooth the POH would say so.

Honestly. The unreasonable fears some people carry around.
 
If it's safe to check it if the engine is rough, it's safe to check it if it's smooth. If it wasn't safe when smooth the POH would say so.

Honestly. The unreasonable fears some people carry around.

I like to reach out the window and sump my tanks in flight to check for water contamination. If it wasn’t safe, the POH would say so.
 
If it's safe to check it if the engine is rough, it's safe to check it if it's smooth. If it wasn't safe when smooth the POH would say so.

Honestly. The unreasonable fears some people carry around.

It’s not unreasonable fear to advocate not messing with a smooth running engine in flight.

The unreasonable / irrational is when you:

1. Hopefully already did a good mag check on the ground per the POH (or taxied back to have it looked at if you couldn’t clear your fouled plugs because you were running too rich).
2. Don’t have a rough running engine
3. Feel like you need to mess with a perfectly fine running engine by inducing irrational temporarily reduced ignition efficiency just because some MX guy put an idea you don’t apparently understand in your head.
 
It’s not unreasonable fear to advocate not messing with a smooth running engine in flight.

The unreasonable / irrational is when you:

1. Hopefully already did a good mag check on the ground per the POH (or taxied back to have it looked at if you couldn’t clear your fouled plugs because you were running too rich).
2. Don’t have a rough running engine
3. Feel like you need to mess with a perfectly fine running engine by inducing irrational temporarily reduced ignition efficiency just because some MX guy put an idea you don’t apparently understand in your head.

My experience with many pilots (as an instructor) is that they often don't notice the subtle warning signals an engine makes. A bit of roughness or vibration. A little hesitation sometimes. If pilots checked their mags in flight once in a great while they might suddenly realize that one of them isn't all that healthy and get it looked at, instead of running stuff until it fails at some inconvenient time and place.

I used to take the flight school airplanes out once in a while and fly them myself. I'd find some stuff that needed attention, sometimes serious stuff. I'd mention it to the other instructors and they'd often say "Oh, that's been doing that for a while. Thought it was normal." So why didn't they ask about it? Ignorance of the meaning of the little signals that mechanical or electrical stuff makes when it's not happy.

We often see threads started here about someone who's had a mag or an alternator or a vacuum pump fail in flight. There is no excuse for that, given that airframe manufacturers recommend, in their service manuals, that these things be checked periodically. Vac pumps are supposed to be replaced every 600 hours, typically, or a pump with vane wear inspection provisions be installed and the checks done periodically and failure is thereby avoided. Alternator brushes are supposed to get checked at 500-hour intervals. Mags are 500-hour inspection items. These things aren't mandated by the regulations so in most cases they don't get done and they inevitably let the pilot down. I ran the maintenance program in that flight school, and we did all those recommended inspections and never had inflight failures of mags or alternators or vacuum pumps. Many thousands of hours without a failure.

So don't fool with your switch. Nobody is forcing you. There are numerous posters in this thread that have done and still do it and sometimes find flaws that weren't apparent on the ground run. You'll just have to let them be. Worse, some of them even fly taildraggers, a notoriously dangerous pursuit in the view of many POAers.

Around 44 years ago I had an engine fail in flight. I was towing gliders. On one pull, while the rope was being connected, the idling engine was making a whistling sound. Unusual. But it went away when I opened the throttle a little, so I didn't worry about it. Took off, towed the glider to altitude, and closed the throttle when he cut loose and I glided back down to pattern altitude. Opened the throttle, and no power came forth. None at all. No amount of fooling with anything made any difference. Made a tight circuit and landed. This was a Gipsy Major engine, with a downdraft carb sitting on the intake manifold alongside the cylinders. The whistling was the carb gasket howling as air was sucked past it at idle, since the four bolts holding the carb were backing out. Hadn't been lockwired. Three of the four fell out entirely during the climb, and when I closed the throttle the linkage (pushrods and bellcranks, not a cable) pulled the carb backward and it hung there, cocked on the remaining bolt. If I had been older and wiser I would have shut the thing down when I first heard that whistle and had someone look at it. But I was young and ignorant. That was a taildragger, too. Dangerous living.
 
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I like to reach out the window and sump my tanks in flight to check for water contamination. If it wasn’t safe, the POH would say so.
Spurious comparison. If there was no water when you checked it on the ground, there won't be enough to cause trouble in the flight. Water doesn't accumulate in tanks in flight, but magnetos and other ignition components can and do wear and fail in flight. As others have pointed out, ignition troubles can often be found at cruise power levels well before they show up in a runup. The cylinder pressures are much higher, everything is hotter, and so on. Necessary spark strength is directly related to cylinder pressures; it takes a lot more voltage to jump the plug gap at high power settings than at runup. Air is a dielectic. Poor spark in climb or cruise wastes fuel, too.

Old Cessnas had a strainer drain control on the instrument panel. You could drain the strainer in flight if you were getting roughness. Now that I would leave alone in flight unless I absolutely had to use it; knowing the way push-pull cables get old and worn and corroded and break, and that strainers are often ill-maintained, you could yank it open, have the cable break, the strainer drain valve stick, and now you're dumping fuel. I've seen carb heat and throttle cables fail because they were run to failure. I've never seen an ignition switch fail in flight. Or on the ground. Maybe Tom has. Aircraft ignition switches, if they fail, will likely fail to ground the magneto, which means they'll fail to shut it off. Magnetos are wired that way for a reason. If they weren't, the all-too-common broken P-lead would kill the ignition. It doesn't.
 
You used this "excellent" diagnostic to discover an issue and immediately deferred resolution to your next annual?

Quite the endorsement.
Nope, maybe I should've elaborated my plan in the already long post i did. Replaced the damaged wire on #5 cylinder and since Surefly recommends a new harness with their setup, replace all wires with new. Since my other mag is getting close to the 500hr, I'll send it off to Kelly Aerospace to get rebuilt. Then I wont have to do anymore inflight mag checks (for those who are concerned/scared). Oh, and my annual is in two months, so you don't need to worry the other 11 plug wires not making it to annual.
 
From the 172N POH, page 3-16: https://wayman.edu/files/Cessna-172N-POH.pdf

View attachment 92706

The 182Q POH has exactly the same thing in it; page 3-16: http://kirtlandflightcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/C182-POH.pdf

Piper PA-28-181 Archer POH, page3-4: https://ramaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/PA28-181-POH.pdf

View attachment 92707

Beech Bonanza 36, A36 POH/AFM, page 3-5: https://jasonblair.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Beechcraft-Bonanza-A36-AFM.pdf

View attachment 92708

Mooney M20J POH, page 3-6: https://pilotage.e-monsite.com/medias/files/m20j-poh3203b.pdf

View attachment 92709

Cessna T206H AFM, pages 3-22 and 3-23: http://blueskyaviation.cz/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/POH_T206H-OK-MCP.pdf

View attachment 92710

Cirrus SR22 POH, page 3-14, under partial power loss: https://jasonblair.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Cirrus-SR22-POH.pdf

View attachment 92711

I could find many more. You can start eating that hat now. A bit of mustard or ketchup will help it go down easier.
It is also in the Piper Comanche POH. Lets see that hat eating contest!
 
But those are all excerpts from the emergency procedures checklist for troubleshooting a rough running engine. In flight mag checks do not appear in the normal procedures, nor should they.
So is using carb heat for a rough running engine. But it can be used all the time in cruise flight if you have a temp probe. Thats not in the normal ops checklist.
 
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Once again, Dr. @Dan Thomas is citing the procedures as if they were included in Normal Operating. The best is his call out to the Lycoming 0-360 which begins with: "During normal flight, leave the carburetor air heat control in the full cod position." He also seems to read past this "Use the minimum carburetor heat required..." in every one of the other clips.

We should all just save some maintenance and throw away the air filters. Not needed, it would seem. Then go full carb heat all the time, and save closing it for when we need that extra power, right?

[Note: Not advocating any of the preceding behaviors]
 
Once again, Dr. @Dan Thomas is citing the procedures as if they were included in Normal Operating. The best is his call out to the Lycoming 0-360 which begins with: "During normal flight, leave the carburetor air heat control in the full cod position." He also seems to read past this "Use the minimum carburetor heat required..." in every one of the other clips.

We should all just save some maintenance and throw away the air filters. Not needed, it would seem. Then go full carb heat all the time, and save closing it for when we need that extra power, right?

[Note: Not advocating any of the preceding behaviors]
Those quotes from the C182P POH are from the Normal Operating Procedures section of the manual. You would know that if you had clicked on the link and looked it up.

And since you freely admitted that you had not read the entire thread, you missed a lot of other good opinions and experience on the subject. And it would help if you linked to, and quoted, authoritative sources to support your opinions.

Most pilots don't realize the huge effect their instructors had on them. Some instructors don't know what they don't know, and they transmit a lot of old wives' tales and aviation mythology to the student. The result can be a pilot that never touches the mixture control, for instance. Or one that encounters engine roughness and pulls the carb heat, and when the engine runs worse they push the heat off again. It ices up and quits. Carb ice is blamed for over 200 accidents and 13 fatalities in less than a decade (AOPA). Completely preventable. Some are afraid of stalling so they approach at 10 or 15 knots above POH numbers and wonder why they can't nail their landings. One of the Seven Learning Factors is Primacy, which says that the things first taught stick the most, even if they're totally wrong. Another factor is Readiness: is that student ready to learn? Or are there factors that are holding him back? Is he worried or scared? Does he already know it all already?
 
Those quotes from the C182P POH are from the Normal Operating Procedures section of the manual. You would know that if you had clicked on the link and looked it up.

And since you freely admitted that you had not read the entire thread, you missed a lot of other good opinions and experience on the subject. And it would help if you linked to, and quoted, authoritative sources to support your opinions.

Most pilots don't realize the huge effect their instructors had on them. Some instructors don't know what they don't know, and they transmit a lot of old wives' tales and aviation mythology to the student. The result can be a pilot that never touches the mixture control, for instance. Or one that encounters engine roughness and pulls the carb heat, and when the engine runs worse they push the heat off again. It ices up and quits. Carb ice is blamed for over 200 accidents and 13 fatalities in less than a decade (AOPA). Completely preventable. Some are afraid of stalling so they approach at 10 or 15 knots above POH numbers and wonder why they can't nail their landings. One of the Seven Learning Factors is Primacy, which says that the things first taught stick the most, even if they're totally wrong. Another factor is Readiness: is that student ready to learn? Or are there factors that are holding him back? Is he worried or scared? Does he already know it all already?

You are generalizing and painting some of those who disagree with you in this thread into boxes they don’t fit in. Like, uh, I teach tailwheel, proper use of the mixture, landing on the numbers and on centerline, and slow flight a lot slower. None of my old timer instructors would have agreed with you on random mag checks when the engine isn’t running rough except as a demonstration of procedures.
The rest of y’all reading this should take this stuff with a grain of salt...
 
You are generalizing and painting some of those who disagree with you in this thread into boxes they don’t fit in.
To be fair, there’s a good number of posters in this thread who clearly didn’t read the article before commenting, or they wouldn’t be questioning and asking the things they have. Many of those same posters also don’t have any experience on the topic to back up their negative opinions, other than their own preconceived ideas. It all makes for good discussion, and I’m glad to hear everyone’s viewpoint.
 
You are generalizing and painting some of those who disagree with you in this thread into boxes they don’t fit in.

I've never met Dan but I do find he is very knowledgeable and I respect him greatly for not only what he knows but his willingness to share it. Thank you Dan!

Not speaking of Dan in particular now, but it seems that sometimes people get caught up perusing a point so far that they become dogmatic and argumentative about it and begin to wander away from the original point. We all should take a step back and realize that sometimes the way other people do things works for them too. I say that as one who comes from the world of experimental aviation which makes a difference.

I guess I should've kept out of this conversation as I don't technically have "mags" as my experimental has "ignitions" (the term I've used in my postings) and so my set up is different than what the OP was actually asking about.

But when I have flown mag equipped airplanes I have never, nor ever, tested or been instructed to test them in flight unless there was a concern that gave a reason to.

YMMV ... but I doubt it! :cool:
 
For those who didn’t read the entire PDF linked, here’s Mike Busch’s final statement that is probably why the OP has chosen to incorporate this into normal ops.

81b77501ff4e14d7f1c03ee253362b94.jpg


I don’t think Mike’s crazy, but I’m also not sure, for instance, that I would encourage a student of mine to adopt it as a regular practice, especially where it is not listed as a normal thing in any of the POH’s in the aircraft we fly. I don’t feel it’s really necessary if you have a functional EGT / CHT that is showing normal operations with consistent numbers; and in the Luscombe without the instrumentation, it’s also of marginal usefulness since we don’t have the info to safely even try to run LOP (don’t even have a mixture).
The times I’ve had ignition system issues, we’ve noticed it without running an in-flight mag check first and we used the mag check per the POH when the engine was running rough to isolate which harness to check first once we got on the ground. Mind you, we are pretty familiar with what our engine numbers ought to look like with an average of over 500 hours per year the past two years.
 
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WOAH! @RyanShort1 just threw a great new fact into this. Dr. Mike Busch says "an in-flight LOP mag check..."

OP, (that's @RyanB if you've forgotten) flies an Archer. IIRC it is an O-360. Is that of any interest to the discussion?

Also, @Dan Thomas, as I previously pointed out, ignores that his own citations about carb hear ALL tend towards "less is more" for carb heat. It MAY help a rough running engine, but nothing in there directs the use.
 
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