Importance of Religion in Your Life

[bstratt]

Religious zeal sets U.S. apart from allies
By RACHEL ZOLL
Monday, June 6, 2005
Updated at 10:43 AM EDT
Associated Press

Religious devotion sets the United States apart from some of its closest allies. Americans profess unquestioning belief in God and are far more willing to mix faith and politics than people in other countries, AP-Ipsos polling found.
In Western Europe, where Pope Benedict XVI complains that growing secularism has left churches unfilled on Sundays, people are the least devout among the 10 countries surveyed for the Associated Press by Ipsos.
Only Mexicans come close to Americans in embracing faith, the poll found. Unlike Americans, however, Mexicans strongly object to clergy lobbying legislators, in line with the nation's historical opposition to church influence.
"In the United States, you have an abundance of religions trying to motivate Americans to greater involvement," Roger Finke, a sociologist at Penn State University, said. "It's one thing that makes a tremendous difference here."
The polling was conducted in May in the United States, Australia, Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Mexico, South Korea and Spain.
Nearly all U.S. respondents said faith is important to them, and only 2 per cent said they do not believe in God. Almost 40 per cent said religious leaders should try to sway politicians, notably higher than in other countries.
"Our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian policies, and religious leaders have an obligation to speak out on public policy, otherwise they're wimps," said David Black, a retiree from Osborne, Pa., who agreed to be interviewed after he was polled.
In contrast, 85 per cent of French object to clergy activism — the strongest opposition of any nation surveyed. France has strict curbs on public religious expression and, according to the poll, 19 per cent are atheists. South Korea is the only other nation with that high a percentage of nonbelievers.
Australians are generally split over the importance of faith, while two-thirds of South Koreans and Canadians said religion is central to their lives. People in all three countries strongly oppose mixing religion and politics.
Researchers disagree over why people in the United States have such a different religious outlook, said Brent Nelsen, an expert in politics and religion at Furman University in South Carolina.
Some say rejecting religion is a natural response to modernization and consider the United States a strange exception to the trend. Others say Europe is the anomaly; people in modernized countries inevitably return to religion because they yearn for tradition, according to the theory.
Some analysts, like Mr. Finke, use a business model. According to his theory, a long history of religious freedom in the United States created a greater supply of worship options than in other countries, and that proliferation inspired wider observance. Some European countries still subsidize churches, in effect regulating or limiting religious options, Mr. Finke said.
History also could be a factor.
Many countries other than the United States have been through bloody religious conflict that contributes to their suspicion of giving clergy any say in policy.
A variety of factors contribute to the sentiment about separating religion and politics.
"In Germany, they have a Christian Democratic Party, and they talk about Christian values, but they don't talk about them in quite the same way that we do," Mr. Nelsen said. "For them, the Christian part of the Christian values are held privately, and it's not that acceptable to bring those out into the open."
In Spain, where the government subsidizes the Roman Catholic Church, and in Germany, which is split between Catholics and Protestants, people are about evenly divided over whether they consider faith important. The results are almost identical in Britain, whose state church, the Church of England, is struggling to fill pews.
Italians are the only European exception in the poll. Eighty per cent said religion is significant to them, and just over half said they unquestioningly believe in God.
Even in Italy, however, home to the Catholic Church, resistance to religious engagement in politics is evident. Only three in 10 think the clergy should try to influence government decisions; a lower percentage in Spain, Germany and England said the same.
Within the United States, some of the most pressing policy issues involve complex moral questions — such as gay marriage, abortion and stem cell research — that understandably draw religious leaders into public debate, said John Green, an expert on religion and politics at the University of Akron.
The poll found Republicans are much more likely than Democrats to think clergy should try to influence government decisions — a sign of the challenges ahead for Democrats as they try to reach out to more religious voters.
"Rightly or wrongly, Republicans tend to perceive religion as, quote-unquote, 'on their side,'" Mr. Green said.
The survey did find trends in belief that transcend national boundaries. Women tend to be more devout than men, and older people have stronger faith than younger people.
The Associated Press-Ipsos polls of about 1,000 adults in each of the 10 countries were taken May 12-26. Each has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.



Highlights

Australia: Three-fourths of Australians say religious leaders should not try to influence government decisions. Just over half say religion is important in their lives. Just under half say they definitely believe in God, though some have occasional doubts. Australians are not closely aligned with one religion. The Roman Catholic church claims the largest share at 27 percent.

Britain: A majority of Britons, 57 percent, say religion is not that important to them. Three-fourths think religious leaders should not try to influence government decisions. Only about a third say they definitely believe in God, and some of those admit to occasional doubts. Almost six in 10 Britons describe themselves as Protestant, with 14 per cent saying they're Catholic and 19 per cent saying "no religion."

Canada: Almost two-thirds of Canadians say religion is important to them, but most seem to prefer that religion and politics not mix too closely. Seven in 10 Canadians say religious leaders should not try to influence government decisions. A majority of Canadians say they believe in God, though some believers admit to occasional doubts. Four in 10 Canadians describe themselves as Catholic, 14 per cent as Protestant, with others saying they had other religions or no religion.

France: Though many French describe themselves as Roman Catholics, nearly half either say they do not believe in God or are agnostics. They overwhelmingly believe that religious leaders should not try to influence government decisions, with 85 per cent taking that view.

Germany: Most Germans say they do not think religious leaders should try to influence government decisions, and about half say they do not believe in God, though many in that group say they do believe in some kind of higher power. Just over half say religion is important in their own lives. More than a third, 36 per cent, said they were Protestant, while about a fourth said they were Catholic.

Italy: Italians are overwhelmingly Roman Catholic and most, 80 per cent, say religion is important to them. Yet almost two-thirds say they do not think religious leaders should try to influence government decisions. More than two-thirds said they definitely believe in God.

Mexico: Mexicans are as devoutly religious as people in the United States. Eight in 10 in the heavily Catholic country said they definitely believe in God, and slightly more said religion is important in their own lives. But three-fourths of Mexicans oppose religious leaders' getting involved in politics.
South Korea: Two-thirds of South Koreans say religion is important in their own personal lives, although only half said they definitely believe in God. Two-thirds said religious leaders should not try to influence government decisions. About one-third in South Korea identified themselves as Christians — either Catholic or Protestant — and one-fourth identified themselves as Buddhist. Four in 10 said they have no religion.

Spain: More than half of Spaniards say that religion is not important in their personal lives. About half say they definitely believe in God, and three-fourths say religious leaders should not try to influence government decisions. The lukewarm enthusiasm for religion comes even though Spain is heavily Roman Catholic, with eight in 10 describing themselves as Catholic.

United States: People in the United States have some of the strongest religious sentiments of all the countries polled. Eight in 10 say they definitely believe in God, and most in that group say they believe it without doubt. Almost nine in 10 say religion is important in their own personal lives. Almost four in 10, 37 per cent, said they believe religious leaders should try to influence government decisions, the highest rate of any country polled.
The AP-Ipsos polls of about 1,000 adults in each of the countries were taken May 12-26. Each has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.
Associated Press

 

[MSmith]

I used to be heavily involved in my church (locally and regionally) when I was in high school and college - I was more or less on the road to the ministry.

I took a sharp turn away from organized religion when it became apparent to me that folks who worked their way into the church hierarchy were more interested in politics and controlling others' actions than in spreading the Word.

That leaves me a believer who does not participate in organized religion. Religion is between God and me and nobody else.

 

[woodstock]

United States: People in the United States have some of the strongest religious sentiments of all the countries polled. Eight in 10 say they definitely believe in God, and most in that group say they believe it without doubt. Almost nine in 10 say religion is important in their own personal lives. Almost four in 10, 37 per cent, said they believe religious leaders should try to influence government decisions, the highest rate of any country polled.

wonder how that has changed over the years? especially the 37% - has that gone up, or down?

 

[SJP]

I don't do 'religion' per se. Most people do, so when I get invited to Weddings or Funerals, I repect their choice. I was raised Anglican, most of my wife's family is lasped Catholic or practicing Lutheran.

I believe in a higher power, I don't call it God, Saguna-Brahman, Waheguru, Allah, or anything else. I also believe that any entity that far advanced, all-seeing, all-knowing, couldn't care less whether I genuflect, kneel, pray, sacrifice or follow any particular doctrine or ritual. What others may believe however is entirely up to them, and if it makes them happy/fulfilled/complete, then thats great.

I guess in most people's eyes, that will make me an agnostic, or a cosmotheist, but those doesn't really fit either .

 

[Ken Ibold]

I grew up in a heavily catholic house, as did my wife. Over the years she has become a holiday catholic/agnostic. I realized many years ago that I did not accept the existence of an omnipotent fantasy being and am an avowed atheist. We are frank in our discussions with our kids, who sometimes ask why their friends go to church and we don't, and why their friends parents pray before meals and we don't. I am as honest as I can be in explaining what some people get out of religion, what it's all about (after 11 years of catholic schools, I can handle that part of the conversation), and then I explain why we choose not to participate. The bottom line: we are good people if we do what we think is right, we are not if we do what we know is wrong. I see no need to complicate it further.

 

[Frank Browne]

In the movie "Shadowlands" Anthony Hopkins has a line where he says..."I have no answers anymore. Only the life I live." Recent events in my life have precipitated a re-evaluation of my beliefs and values. That sentence pretty well sums up where I'm at right now.

 

[jkaduk]

I realized many years ago that I did not accept the existence of an omnipotent fantasy being and am an avowed atheist.

This is me exactly. I recall being skeptical in Sunday School from early on. What I can't figure out is how it didn't "stick" with me but my brother and sister are both believers.

 

[Anthony]

I believe there is another set of rules that we don't or can't understand. Earthly physics and the concept of the creation of the universe from nothing are inconsistant. There has to be something more, but I sure don't know what that is.

 

[waldo]

It really amazes me that I don't see more pilots "walking" with God. After all, we are "living on the edge".

I attend church weekly (most of the time). I don't attend because I feel that I have to. I attend becasue it's more to me than just a meeting with other Christians or learning something new from the word of God.

It's all about a relationship "with" God. No other religion offers what the Christian religion offers. Only the Christian religion worships a God that claims to have risen from the dead. No other religion takes such a bold stand. Many folks that go to church really don't understand that it's about a relationship with God. That's the whole Christian message wrapped up in a nutshell.

I'm not trying to "preach" at anyone here. Just pitching in my two cents for what it may be worth.

 

[Len Lanetti]

I realized many years ago that I did not accept the existence of an omnipotent fantasy being and am an avowed atheist.

Would a loud snapping sound while doing an Immelman change your mind?

Len

 

[bstratt]

Interesting. I purposefully kept my views out of the original post and only quoted the article as I wanted to solicit unbiased views. I find that I am close to the views expressed by the majority of posters.

I was raised going to the United Church (protestant) every Sunday with the natural progression - Sunday School followed by confirmation. I had enough questions that I didn't think were answered competently during the confirmation process that I stopped going and would have labelled myself an agnostic at the time. In 1988 my wife was killed in an accident leaving me to raise a 5 year old. It was a life altering experience in many ways.

Suffice it to say that I do not believe in any organized religion. I believe most religions, when stripped down to basic principals, are based on the Golden Rule, however at various times in history have been hijacked/corrupted by power mad individuals/groups. Organized religion is a self serving institution whose primary goal is continuing its existence and amassing power. More people have been killed by religions who profess to be peaceful than I think any other reason (Spanish Inquisition, Jewish Pogroms, Islamic Terrorists, Crusades, KKK, the Holocaust).

However I have become more convinced than ever of a form of continued consciousness after death - whether it is Heaven or Nirvana or neither I cannot say. I don't believe in a God as some form of omnipresent, omnipotent individual who dabbles in our lives. God, as a form of metaphysical consciousness I can accept.

 

[Frank Browne]

Would a loud snapping sound while doing an Immelman change your mind?

Len

Are you suggesting that there are no atheists in foxholes?

 

[bstratt]

When renowned atheist WC Fields was dying in the hospital a friend visited and found him reading the Bible. When he enquired whether WC Fields had found religion now that he was dying, WC replied "I'm looking for loopholes!"

 

[Henning]

Some say rejecting religion is a natural response to modernization and consider the United States a strange exception to the trend. Others say Europe is the anomaly; people in modernized countries inevitably return to religion because they yearn for tradition, according to the theory.

That's a very Amercanocentrist point of view. Much of that is because of the short history of the USA and no institution memory left of pre Reformationist Church and its exploitation of the people. St. Peters Bassilica was built on the backs of poor people buying from the Church entry to heaven for their departed loved ones, mostly in Germany. This is all what led up to Martin Luther posting notice on the church door and starting the whole Prodestant movement. Those grand cathedrals in Europe were not built on voluntary contributions to the Church, rather by forced and further extorted payment which was enforced by the nobles tax collectors, BTW, that's where the whole Seperation of Church and State issue in our own law comes from.

I am surprised that in America this institutional history has been lost considering those of whom were the first Europeans setting here, I guess they want to forget, and eventually the Constitution was written in such a way that America was never at risk from these issues. Much of the background and intent of the framers in regards to this issue and the way it is used and argued in the courts today.

I believe the root cause of this may be the loss of oral history of immigrants as the extended family and community is left behind with the stories they hold, and new histories are being forged in a new land.
Most Europeans still learn of these times as part of their history as do Americans learn of the pilgrims and the first Thanksgiving. The statement most of the Europeans were making wasn't so much "I don't believe" but rather "I don't believe they should be involved with the gov't, we been there, done that, didn't work out too slick for most people, actually, it sucked."

I was an immigrant in a growing age of communication, even so, I missed a great deal of oral history, luckily my dad is a great repository of such. BTW, You don't want to ask him his views on religion, he was sent to a Monastery school/ farm when he was 10 during WWII.

 

[Licketysplit]

I believe every word the Bible says without question. I believe Jesus is who He says He is without question, and He is the Christ. I was simi raised in Church, but I didn't want it. Later in life I experenced some things that I understood as supernatural events, and that brought me to God. I walked the walk and talked the talk for many years. With great anguish I came to understand that Religion and Church is big business in this Country and doesn't have much to do with true worship. This made me cold, and I quit, walked away. Am I still a believer? yes I am, Am I still covered by Christ blood sacrifice for my rebellion against God? yes I am, Will I meet Jesus on the other side for judgement after death? Yes we will. And you know what? This is something we all have to face alone. Good luck.

 

[grattonja]

Interesting posts. My beliefs continue to evolve as I grow older (My wife would kick me if I said "as I mature". She would certainly argue that will never happen ).

When I was younger than now, I had little use for religion at all. I was not brought up particularly religious, and really didn't think about it. Now that I have a daughter myself, well... it does make you think.

I, like many here, don't have much preference for "organized" religion. I have seen one too many churches like one that I went to in college, on account of a girlfriend and her family who went there. The place had folks that I knew well, many of whom I liked. But the girlfriend's family would go on Sunday, make nice with all, then spend the next week backbiting about how this one didn't go all the time, that one ran a cheap Sunday brunch downstairs, that one was cheating on his/her spouse... Yuck. I found this inconsistent with the concept of "love thy fellow man". Backbiting and politics. I know that folks on this board belong in congregations that they adore. More power to them. I may just be a bit too cynical for that, perhaps.

I guess the sex scandal within the Catholic Church, and some of the broad institutional rules that I see there are off-putting for me. Someone else posted a comment to the effect that many of the basic faiths are simply about "being nice". That is my feeling. When you boil many faiths down to their core, not what codicils or haddiths (sorry about spelling) preached by bishops or Imams say, they are about doing unto others, not killing, not stealing, turning the other cheek.

By the same token, this universe seems awfully complex and complicated to have been simply created by some accidental "big bang". So I am inclined to look at the concept of a higher power as much more acceptible to me than it was, say, 10 years ago.

As to afterlife, energy is changed, neither created nor destroyed. So, I think science and the concept of an afterlife, of a soul, are not so in opposition to each other as some would say. I see the concepts of science and faith as being far more interrelated than competing.

It is a large, beautiful and complex universe that we are allowed to live in.

Jim G

 

[waldo]

By the same token, this universe seems awfully complex and complicated to have been simply created by some accidental "big bang". So I am inclined to look at the concept of a higher power as much more acceptible to me than it was, say, 10 years ago.

Jim G

Well I believe in the "Big Bang" theory . . . . . sort of . . . . . God is BIG and He said "Let there be . . . " and, get this, BANG, it happened!

Just a little Humor,
Waldo

 

[sierra]

I was going to point out that the Importance of Religion and the poll Qs were not very well correlated, but then I realized that I was thinking of the Importance of Spirituality, not Religion. I suspect that the original intent was on the Active Participation in a Faith based on the Spiritual values of such faith, not in traditional participation in an organization without thought as to the spiritual ramifications such a Faith may require in terms of actions matching statements of Faith, but I may be wrong. If i was correct, then the poll should include utilization of such faith vs. merely arriving at a destination X number of times per week.

 

[bstratt]

I was going to point out that the Importance of Religion and the poll Qs were not very well correlated, but then I realized that I was thinking of the Importance of Spirituality, not Religion.

You're right. Thread should probably have been entitled "Importance of Organized Religion in Your Life". In my mind "religion" equates with "organized religion" as opposed to faith.

 

[sierra]

That leaves me a believer who does not participate in organized religion. Religion is between God and me and nobody else.

Although, Mark, wouldn't you say that your Faith is between you and God and therefore, everyone else? After all Jesus said that to serve him you deal with the rest of the humans!

 

[mattaxelrod]

I"m not gonna take part in the poll because I'd skew the results. I'm a cantor, a member of the clergy in the Jewish religion. As such, I go to temple EVERYDAY! (except for my day off, when I fly)

I do think, however, that a couple of my flight instructors found religion during some of our lessons.

 

[sierra]

I do think, however, that a couple of my flight instructors found religion during some of our lessons.

Mine, too (-: Or at least the aisle in the supermarket where the Depends are kept.

 

[RogerT]

I do think, however, that a couple of my flight instructors found religion during some of our lessons.

My CFI for my PPL was a minister. I used to tell him that I felt
like I had TWO instructors up there with me.

 

[Eamon]

I"m not gonna take part in the poll because I'd skew the results. I'm a cantor, a member of the clergy in the Jewish religion. As such, I go to temple EVERYDAY! (except for my day off, when I fly)

I do think, however, that a couple of my flight instructors found religion during some of our lessons.

Hi Matt,

I totally respect anyone that can spend most of their time helping people find God inside themselves.

God was beat into me in Catholic school & 2 Sunday masses every week over many years.....

After I left that branch, I tried many other Christian religions, them many other religions (Temple included). I am usually ok with most of all of them, being that are all essentially the same..............

What gets me to walk away is when they start with the "I'm going to heaven & you're not"


So, How do you feel about that as a man of God? Does it at all seem strange that you have devoted a lot of your life to God & a Catholic believes that you are not good enough to go to heaven?

I have a great relationship with my maker & he chuckles with me about how a human can think that going to the right church can get you a "get into heaven" ticket

 

[bbchien]

God was beat into me in Catholic school & 2 Sunday masses every week over many years.....

I still have bursitis in my left elbow from a whack out of noplace from Sister Mary Prefect of Discipline. Seems when I was in 7th grade and changing classes on the landing, I was talking in the hall. I really don't think I was talking- I wasn't with any friends at that moment. The crack was so electrical (ulnar nerve charlie horse) that I dropped all my books.

Said to my Father, "I'm not going back to that school" Said he, "Public education for you, son!".

The institutions of man leave a lot to be desired.

 

[RobertGerace]

It is very difficult for me to believe that all of the order in our world (despite all the chaos) came from nowhere. I chose to believe in the being that most people call God, and to call Him (and/or Her) God. I believe my prayers are answered.

As for religion, I believe it is 70% about building small empires for organizations called Churches, 10% about self-appointed saviours (who are either hypocrits and/or modern day Pharisees )telling all who will listen how they should live their life -- in order to be found worthy in God's eyes, 10% about using guilt to enforce the prior 80%, and 10% about helping people to find God.

Since I have already found God, I prefer to abstain from the 90% load of crap I've found in churches.

Importance of Religion in my life? Zero. Importance of God? Off the scale high.

 

[Maverick]

I still have bursitis in my left elbow from a whack out of noplace from Sister Mary Prefect of Discipline. Seems when I was in 7th grade and changing classes on the landing, I was talking in the hall. I really don't think I was talking- I wasn't with any friends at that moment. The crack was so electrical (ulnar nerve charlie horse) that I dropped all my books.

Said to my Father, "I'm not going back to that school" Said he, "Public education for you, son!".

The institutions of man leave a lot to be desired.

I'll never forget something that happened during the eleventh grade in Catholic high school. I was in our english class, it was a study period and we were all reading silently in our books while the Nun, our teacher, was cruising up and down the isles. She stopped next to me and hit me over the head with the book she had in her hands. I looked up at her startled and what she said to me still bothers me to this day. She said " Do you know what's wrong with you? You're a thinker and that's what makes you dangerous."

This woman didn't know me, this was her first year teaching at my school. As far as I know I didn't have any sort of reputation that would warrant some sort of wrath from her or anyone else, but I knew that she did not like me from the first day of class. That incident left me with the impression that we were being brainwashed, or programmed and that individual thought was not a desirable thing.

I believe in God but I am not a practicing Catholic and haven't been for a long long time now. Things that I have seen have pushed me away from organized religions for many of the reasons others have already given. It's my opinion that religious beliefs are a good thing but all too often those beliefs are perverted by those who would use religion to exert control over others. God gave us all free will, what we do with that is between ourselves and our God. I also believe it is not up to our government to enforce religious doctrine. I believe the framers of our constitution made it clear that they did not want religion coming anywhere near the law of this land.

Jeannie.

 

[mattaxelrod]

I'm not your typical "man of God". I don't take myself too seriously, and I have no patience for Bible thumpers or fundamentalists of any persuasion. I never make anyone feel guilty for whatever life choices they make. Religion's not for everyone and I most certainly don't believe in the whole heaven and hell thing.

I love teaching kids and adults, and I love to sing and lead my choirs, and play piano and guitar. I also love being (I think!) the only cantor who flies! I have to check that one out.

 

[Eamon]

I'm not your typical "man of God". I don't take myself too seriously, and I have no patience for Bible thumpers or fundamentalists of any persuasion. I never make anyone feel guilty for whatever life choices they make. Religion's not for everyone and I most certainly don't believe in the whole heaven and hell thing.

I love teaching kids and adults, and I love to sing and lead my choirs, and play piano and guitar. I also love being (I think!) the only cantor who flies! I have to check that one out.

Good for you Rock On Brother !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DeeG]

In simple terms, while I respect everyones choice of religion, method of worship or whatever, I have no use for organized religion. If God (or whatever you chose to call him/her) is supposed to be everywhere, why do I need a middleman? So many different opinions about which religion is 'right', and that you will burn in hell if you don't believe what we believe. It reminds me of part of the lyircs of XTC's song called Dear God:

"Dear God, sorry to disturb you, but...
I feel that I should be heard loud and clear.
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears
and all the people that you made in your image,
see them fighting in the street
'cause they can't make opinions meet about God....."

I went to a funeral on Saturday for one of my deputies that commited suicide on Wednesday. I overheard a Catholic aquaintance of mine that said, "Nice service for Matt, but he's going to burn in hell no matter what their Pastor says." (It was a Presbyterian church.) And coming out of the mouth of someone that is FAR from perfect. Made me ill.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I believe in The Golden Rule and God but, I've got serious reservations about many of "God's representatives."

 

[Ghery]

I love teaching kids and adults, and I love to sing and lead my choirs, and play piano and guitar. I also love being (I think!) the only cantor who flies! I have to check that one out.

Well, our choir director/organist and I are both pilots. He directs and I sing baritone. I think you are in good company.

I've been singing in church choirs since I was a kid (over 40 years) and am a Ruling Elder in the Presbyterian church, presently the moderator of the Worship and Music Department at our church. Not being Catholic I never had the experience some have described in their schools. I can see where you might have gained a strained view of the church. On the other hand, I know that Jesus Christ is my lord and savior and that through him my sins (and they are many) are forgiven. It is that grace that we have not earned, but are freely given, that saves all believers, regardless of what denomination one may affiliate themselves with. I know that I am not perfect, but Jesus came to minister to those in need, just as a doctor treats those who are sick.

 

[mattaxelrod]

I believe in The Golden Rule and God but, I've got serious reservations about many of "God's representatives."

As the saying goes, most people who claim to be doing God's work are actually self-employed. (I thought the lightning bolt might be appropriate for this thread)

 

[Frank Browne]

The institutions of man leave a lot to be desired.

Amen.

 

[grattonja]

In simple terms, while I respect everyones choice of religion, method of worship or whatever, I have no use for organized religion. If God (or whatever you chose to call him/her) is supposed to be everywhere, why do I need a middleman? So many different opinions about which religion is 'right', and that you will burn in hell if you don't believe what we believe. It reminds me of part of the lyircs of XTC's song called Dear God:

"Dear God, sorry to disturb you, but...
I feel that I should be heard loud and clear.
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears
and all the people that you made in your image,
see them fighting in the street
'cause they can't make opinions meet about God....."

I went to a funeral on Saturday for one of my deputies that commited suicide on Wednesday. I overheard a Catholic aquaintance of mine that said, "Nice service for Matt, but he's going to burn in hell no matter what their Pastor says." (It was a Presbyterian church.) And coming out of the mouth of someone that is FAR from perfect. Made me ill.

It was that sort of thinking that has kept me out of organized religion (vs belief) for some years. To speak ill of the dead like that because they were of a different faith... As some have said here, the core beliefs of being nice, doing good, are the same. How can a catholic like Mother Theresa go to hell and a similar Protestant go to heaven? That can't be right? Is a Jehovah's Witness going to hell because the believe that Jesus died on a torture stick, or a Catholic going to hell for calling it a cross? (yes, this is a genuine debate issue)

Do good, believe in some power higher or greater than yourself. Do your best. Every day. End of story for me.

Jim G

 

[bstratt]

I went to a funeral on Saturday for one of my deputies that commited suicide on Wednesday. I overheard a Catholic aquaintance of mine that said, "Nice service for Matt, but he's going to burn in hell no matter what their Pastor says." (It was a Presbyterian church.) And coming out of the mouth of someone that is FAR from perfect. Made me ill.

I do believe that some of the stupidest things are said at funerals. I could fill you in for hours on some of the things said to me at my wife's funeral but the one that "took the cake" was when a Lutheran minister who came with her grandparents told me "God called her home because he had more need of her than you did". I looked at my 5 year old and wondered how any omnipotent being had a greater need.

When I went to the funeral of my brother in law's father, the catholic priest officiating went on at great lengths about how he hadn't seen the family in church much and then proceeded to tell everyone at the service that they had better start attending regularly if they wanted to save their souls, with the clear implication that the departed was going to hell. He was a nice person who thought of others, very self-effacing and humble. It irritated the family so much they held a second service the following week for friends and family only.

 

[poadeleted3]

I do believe that some of the stupidest things are said at funerals. I could fill you in for hours on some of the things said to me at my wife's funeral but the one that "took the cake" was when a Lutheran minister who came with her grandparents told me "God called her home because he had more need of her than you did". I looked at my 5 year old and wondered how any omnipotent being had a greater need.

When I went to the funeral of my brother in law's father, the catholic priest officiating went on at great lengths about how he hadn't seen the family in church much and then proceeded to tell everyone at the service that they had better start attending regularly if they wanted to save their souls, with the clear implication that the departed was going to hell. He was a nice person who thought of others, very self-effacing and humble. It irritated the family so much they held a second service the following week for friends and family only.

It's really hard to know what to say at a funeral. I generally limit myself to "I'm sorry for your loss" or something similar. "Your dead beloved is going to hell" seems inappropriate unless one has a deliberate wish to hurt the family and friends. Aside from the fact that such a judgement isn't going to be made by us, it's just not helpful at that point.

I'd have no issue firing a preacher who started making such a speech over a member of my family.

 

[Len Lanetti]

So, How do you feel about that as a man of God? Does it at all seem strange that you have devoted a lot of your life to God & a Catholic believes that you are not good enough to go to heaven?

Some people who happen to be Catholic might think that Jews are not going to heaven just like some Catholics may have other prejudices. As far as the Catholic Church as an institution goes it does not teach that those of the Jewish faith are not going to heaven.

It is interesting to note that many Catholics never grow in the knowledge of their faith past the grade school level. Think about the level of learning a person has of math, science or history at the 5th through 8th grade or even the high school level. Now apply that thought to religion (any religon). If someone has not taken the time to learn any subject at a deeper level do they really understand that subject.

As a side note...I'll be teaching vacation bible school for a week this summer at the Catholic School & Church where my wife volunteers. The program this year focuses on the Old Testament and the Jewish faith. I'm not through prep'ng for the program but the basic idea is to show the kids how closely intertwined the Jewish religion is with Catholicism. I have to build an Arc to store the word of God and my wife is busy sewing 100 yamulkas for the kids and other volunteers. I'll be playing the part of a Rabbi (teacher) and hopefully God will give me the talent to do a good job.

Len

 

[corjulo]

I'll never forget something that happened during the eleventh grade in Catholic high school. I was in our english class, it was a study period and we were all reading silently in our books while the Nun, our teacher, was cruising up and down the isles. She stopped next to me and hit me over the head with the book she had in her hands. I looked up at her startled and what she said to me still bothers me to this day. She said " Do you know what's wrong with you? You're a thinker and that's what makes you dangerous."

This woman didn't know me, this was her first year teaching at my school. As far as I know I didn't have any sort of reputation that would warrant some sort of wrath from her or anyone else, but I knew that she did not like me from the first day of class. That incident left me with the impression that we were being brainwashed, or programmed and that individual thought was not a desirable thing.

I believe in God but I am not a practicing Catholic and haven't been for a long long time now. Things that I have seen have pushed me away from organized religions for many of the reasons others have already given. It's my opinion that religious beliefs are a good thing but all too often those beliefs are perverted by those who would use religion to exert control over others. God gave us all free will, what we do with that is between ourselves and our God. I also believe it is not up to our government to enforce religious doctrine. I believe the framers of our constitution made it clear that they did not want religion coming anywhere near the law of this land.

Jeannie.

That's terrible, what happen to you. But I set in that same kind of catholic school and a very different nun took a great interest in this apparently smart kid who had trouble reading and writing. That same nun educated her self in dyslexia and other learning disabilities and worked with my parent on new approaches to learning. That same nun went on to design programs for learning disabilities later adapted by the public schools.

She was not some young idealistic nun, she was an rather old, very christian woman. She had a profound lasting impact on my view of teachers, nun, what it is to be a christian. The current leadership of the catholic church falls far short of her standards.

 

[judypilot]

Generally I stay out of religious discussions (or try to), but the stories about comments at funerals reminds me of what the minister at my first wedding did to us. While we didn't have a formal rehearsal, we did go over the service with him in some detail. The service did not include a sermon. For whatever reason, he decided at the event itself to give a sermon (and, obviously, since we didn't know he was going to give one, we hadn't discussed the topic with him). His topic? The sin of living together. I don't know what the heck he was thinking--maybe he thought he was congratulating us for actually getting married. But we had numerous couples among our friends who were living together and our attitude about that was that it was their choice and we aren't going to judge them. We were horrified. One of the wedding pictures taken of my husband shows him with his arms crossed and a scowl on his face--out of context, it would be a very weird picture for a wedding, but it was taken during the sermon.

Of course, they all thought the sermon had been approved by us and was directed toward them. It took months for us to get to everyone and calm them down. It really threw a pall over what should have been a celebration, and it was shortly thereafter that I left organized religion.

Judy