I'm on the Homeland Security Watch List!

Ted

Ted

The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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Oct 9, 2007
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iFlyNothing
I had a feeling this would happen at some point given how much I fly my Aztec, including over long distances on a regular basis.

For the past few days I've been stuck in the western half of the country because the weather over the Great Lakes has not facilitated a return. I have a feeling that tomorrow will end up being my return day. For having flown the Aztec 350 hours in a bit over a year, almost all of which has been on a schedule, this is the first time that weather has had a significant impact in my travel plans. Really not too bad considering, and this winter has been pretty awful.

Last night, I was on my way back to Iowa and stopped in Liberal, KS for fuel. I figured I'd add another state on the map and the fuel there was a reasonable price, so good enough. I called the FBO about 10 minutes out, said I was coming in and looking for a quick turnaround. He did a good job, got the truck ready and everything. While he fueled I checked the weather and was ready to go back out in about 10 minutes. Not a bad deal. Before I got in, he told me that Homeland Security had called the FBO asking about me. Good to know I'm on the watch list.

Hopped back in, fired the engines up, and taxiied out. Then got a call from the FBO saying there was a problem with my credit card. Yeah, right... I saw a car pulling up as I was leaving. Well I know what's coming. Come back, and the Special Agent introduces himself, and explains that I'm on the watch list, leaving out I'm sure a ton of reasons. He was professional enough, so I figured I'd be cooperative.

He and his crew seemed rather convinced they were going to find drugs or other illegal items in my plane. After about 30-40 minutes of searching, all they found were clothes, dog cages, and an oxygen bottle. They didn't know what oxygen cannulas were, so I had to explain. It would really be good if they knew what they were looking at. They were rather sheepish upon completion having found nothing and said they'd tell Homeland Security everything appeared to be legit and in order.

The part that I found the most idiotic about this was that they knew I was going to be there in the first place because I had flight following coming in and an IFR flight plan going out. If I was really trying to be covert on a perfect VFR day, why would I do that? I can understand the logic about an Aztec flying a lot having some suspicion, but there are no shortage of people and companies that fly a lot. Then again, they may receive similar treatment.

Be warned - big brother is watching. I have a feeling it's only going to get worse.
 
Did you consent to a search? What was their probable cause to conduct a search?


Trapper John
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Be warned - big brother is watching. I have a feeling it's only going to get worse.
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FWIW, I think this kind of thing has been going on for a long time. I was intercepted and searched by US customs back in the early 1990s when flying the C-320. Actually they only made it up on the wing. When they looked inside and saw the mapping equipment they didn't bother going ahead with the search. I guess they felt a little sheepish having dispatched a Citation from ABQ to Roswell to intercept me.
 
I wonder if it was the pattern of flying you have done lately meeting some obscure computer program criteria.

In any event, it was the dog cages they were after you for. Dog fighting and all. You Michael Vick you. :mad3:


:rofl:
 
Ted I was gonna goof on you but this is absolute Horse excrement!!! Who exactly was this TSA? Some other Alphabet Agency? You weren't comming in over the boarder ( Arizona is still part of the Union right?) what gave them the right to search your plane? I'm sure the agents were just dispatched from some cubicle in DC But REALLY.

As they were holding the cannula you should have told them it was a used urniary relief tube. What the hell did they search for 30-40 minutes? The Aztec is big but really!

Did you ask the guy at the FBO why he freaking lied to you? He should have gotten on the radio and said ABC agents are hear they want to speak to you at which point you could tell them sorry don't have time want to beat the Wx tell them to stop by KXYZ in Iowa and I'll be happy to let them buy me a cup of Joe and talk to them there.

I will go on record as saying the only thing you are a threat to is bathroom throw rugs. Sorry you had to deal with this. Man I can't wait to read Scott's post.

Oh by the Way Kent you drive those huge Tractor Trailers all over the country how many times have you been delayed and searched by the ABC agency!!:mad3::mad3:
 
Everskyward said:
FWIW, I think this kind of thing has been going on for a long time. I was intercepted and searched by US customs back in the early 1990s when flying the C-320. Actually they only made it up on the wing. When they looked inside and saw the mapping equipment they didn't bother going ahead with the search. I guess they felt a little sheepish having dispatched a Citation from ABQ to Roswell to intercept me.
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I believe it. Given how much flying I've been doing (and the long distances traveled, etc.) I understood their reasons for suspicion. They seemed pretty sheepish for dispatching 5 or 6 people, a squad car, and all being out when they'd rather be at home for someone who saves puppies in his spare time.

I did consent to the search. Knowing that I'm on their watch list (and understanding why) I knew that if I didn't consent it would be a virtual guarantee that they'd come back and bug me further at other occasions that might be less opportune (such as when I have 47 dogs on board). As much as I wanted to get where I was going and go to sleep, really that was overall not a bad time to get interrupted. It just would have been nicer had I not been trying to go to sleep. In the future, I'm far more likely to cite that I previously cooperated fully with a search that showed nothing, so I see no reason to allow them to waste more of my time.
 
AdamZ said:
Ted I was gonna goof on you but this is absolute Horse excrement!!! Who exactly was this TSA? Some other Alphabet Agency? You weren't comming in over the boarder ( Arizona is still part of the Union right?) what gave them the right to search your plane? I'm sure the agents were just dispatched from some cubicle in DC But REALLY.
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The agents were all locals, nobody was dispatched from DC or anywhere else. So at least they didn't waste the money on a jet to come inspect me. The guy who was running the thing was a special agent from the Kansas Bureau of Investigation, and the rest were with the Sherriff's office. It seemed to me it was a combination of local drug problems they've been having with airplanes and the fact that Homeland Security has been keeping an eye on my plane.

As they were holding the cannula you should have told them it was a used urniary relief tube. What the hell did they search for 30-40 minutes? The Aztec is big but really!
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I was really surprised at how much time they took. Granted they had to get the dog crates out (which was laughable at how they were trying to do it - I'm the only person who can get them in and out), but then they spent time going through my laundry, backpack, camera bag, etc. The oxygen bottle they found suspicious - these guys didn't know a propeller from a window. They asked me about the handheld GPS, too. Like I said, they were professional but didn't know what they were talking about. Once they realized they weren't going to find anything then they got sheepish.

Oh, and the guy asked if the nose cannulas were for the dogs. I couldn't believe he was serious. The woman they sent out was talking to me about the local animal shelter putting down 1000 per year (probably trying to figure out if I actually knew what I was talking about), and I laughed and said "That's low. Most of the areas I pull from put down 200-300 per week at an individual shelter." She shut up after that.

Did you ask the guy at the FBO why he freaking lied to you? He should have gotten on the radio and said ABC agents are hear they want to speak to you at which point you could tell them sorry don't have time want to beat the Wx tell them to stop by KXYZ in Iowa and I'll be happy to let them buy me a cup of Joe and talk to them there.
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Actually, I don't blame the FBO guy. He told me when I was leaving that Homeland Security called him asking about me, which I appreciated. I knew he was lying over the radio as soon as he said it, he told me what the agents told him to say. He's a local and has to deal with them. I could have just as easily pretended I didn't hear him (volume down, etc.). I had a strong suspicion what I was going back for, and had I really wanted to just avoid it I could have taken off anyway. In the future I may do so.

I will go on record as saying the only thing you are a threat to is bathroom throw rugs. Sorry you had to deal with this. Man I can't wait to read Scott's post.
Click to expand...

:rofl: It should be good.

I mainly wanted to share this so that you all know it goes on and can happen. I've learned all too well that no good deed goes unpunished.
 
Time to get rid of the TSA and put the money towards something useful.

How about that gate agent that had the 4 year old take off his leg braces and walk through the metal detector unassisted?

They're a disaster.

Tim
 
An attorney, who I trust greatly, told me a long time ago to never consent to a search, there's no upside.


Trapper John
 
For the record, these were not TSA agents. As I understand it, Homeland Security has my airplane on a watch list for suspicious behavior, and the agents were local people, dispatched for whatever their reasons were plus Homeland Security.

To me, the whole DHS should be scrapped with all of its agencies. This just proves the point to me.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Hopped back in, fired the engines up, and taxiied out. Then got a call from the FBO saying there was a problem with my credit card.
Click to expand...

Aztec 12-puppy: Gotta go, beat the weather. Send me a bill.
 
Trapper John said:
An attorney, who I trust greatly, told me a long time ago to never consent to a search, there's no upside.
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Sure there is. The upside is that they just laugh and let you go. I've always thought it was much better than stonewalling. I feel that way about dealings with the FAA to, BTW.
 
Everskyward said:
Sure there is. The upside is that they just laugh and let you go. I've always thought it was much better than stonewalling. I feel that way about dealings with the FAA to, BTW.
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That definitely was part of it. While it is annoying, these people are still just trying to do their jobs. Generally, I've found them to be professional (FAA and law enforcement).

In this case I was primarily annoyed with the guilty until proven innocent assumption, and the fact that I was considered suspect.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
That definitely was part of it. While it is annoying, these people are still just trying to do their jobs. Generally, I've found them to be professional (FAA and law enforcement).

In this case I was primarily annoyed with the guilty until proven innocent assumption, and the fact that I was considered suspect.
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My argument with the "May we search..." question is that unreasonable searches are not part of their job. Those folks need to follow the rules and do things right so if one chooses to decline the search there must be no negative connotation. Of course those folks don't see it that way and make the "we're just doing our jobs" and "you're not cooperating" claims. Both claims are patently false but hey, it's no skin off their teeth.

Sorry to hear about your interrupted travels. There are lots of good folks in Kansas (I'm originally from there) but there are some real blockheads too. If you're choosing places to spend the night, you can get a really good steak in Liberal. Nothing fancy but the cut will be tender and have great flavor. Now if I could just remember the name of the place...
 
Admit it, you're just on the list because of your unconventional long golden hair. :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
For the record, these were not TSA agents. As I understand it, Homeland Security has my airplane on a watch list for suspicious behavior, and the agents were local people, dispatched for whatever their reasons were plus Homeland Security.

To me, the whole DHS should be scrapped with all of its agencies. This just proves the point to me.
Click to expand...

Very, very troubling.

If you are on a watch list, time to engage an attorney to make sure you get off. It really will affect everything in your life since some banks will screen against the DHS lists, as will some lenders. Not to mention commercial flying and attempting to travel in and out of the country.

Welcome to Amerika, folks, where it's OK to detain you on mere suspicion. The Revolutionary War was fought to keep us free from this kind of behavior.

DHS and TSA need to go.
 
I'd be interested to know if there's something in the Patriot Act which authorizes searches of aircraft owned/piloted by those on the watch list, or any other relevant language in that Act. In any event, in most cases, law enforcement officers generally have the authority to detain a vehicle under suspicion while they go get (or at least try to get) a search warrant. It's not like dealing with an FAA Inspector who wants to ramp check you but has no authority to detain you if you refuse (only to cause you pain and agony later). In addition, before anyone does anything to annoy TSA, see what 14 CFR 61.18 says about what happens if you manage to get yourself elevated from the watch list to the threat list.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Then got a call from the FBO saying there was a problem with my credit card. Yeah, right... I saw a car pulling up as I was leaving..
Click to expand...

I would have not answered the radio call and taken off if I suspected something was afoul. I only say that because I don't play well with others and that would have me so POed I would have had to stay the night there. If I was VFR I also would not have gotten flight following for at least a hundred miles to add to their unhappiness, heck I mighta flown the rest of the way home without it.:mad3: I don't need no stinkin' big brother.:mad2:
 
Ron Levy said:
In addition, before anyone does anything to annoy TSA, see what 14 CFR 61.18 says about what happens if you manage to get yourself elevated from the watch list to the threat list.
Click to expand...

And that, Ron, is the real issue. There is no due process involved in either the watch list nor the threat list (Ted's case is prima facia demonstration). In fact, they claim that they can't even tell you if you're on the list.

As Dean Wormer said so eloquently: "They're on double secret probation!"
 
wsuffa said:
And that, Ron, is the real issue. There is no due process involved in either the watch list nor the threat list (Ted's case is prima facia demonstration). In fact, they claim that they can't even tell you if you're on the list.
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You'll figure it out quick enough.
As Dean Wormer said so eloquently: "They're on double secret probation!"
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As if the boys of Delta Tau Chi didn't know they were on the Dean's list (and I don't mean the one for academic achievement).
 
Ron Levy said:
You'll figure it out quick enough.
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Yes, but it's awful hard to bring action against something that the TSA/DHS refuses to acknowledge exists. Look at how long it's taken - and what folks have to go through - to even attempt to bring action.

We currently have a system that effectively denies due process, both on the "getting on the list" side and "getting off the list". The agency regularly declines to make information available to the courts claiming "national security".

Hardly in keeping with the spirit of "right to redress" and "due process". Last I checked, DHS and TSA are not military organizations.

As if the boys of Delta Tau Chi didn't know they were on the Dean's list (and I don't mean the one for academic achievement).
Click to expand...

Exactly. In the case of TSA/DHS, you won't even know that you're on the list.

Just ask Robert Gray about it.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
For the record, these were not TSA agents. As I understand it, Homeland Security has my airplane on a watch list for suspicious behavior, and the agents were local people, dispatched for whatever their reasons were plus Homeland Security.

~~~~~~~~~ What suspicious behavior? You have a plane, you fly a lot - why on earth is using your plane more than the average GA individual pilot particularly suspicious? That is so bogus.
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Jeanie said:
~~~~~~~~~ What suspicious behavior? You have a plane, you fly a lot - why on earth is using your plane more than the average GA individual pilot particularly suspicious? That is so bogus.
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You got it. This is the state of our union today.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'd be interested to know if there's something in the Patriot Act which authorizes searches of aircraft owned/piloted by those on the watch list, or any other relevant language in that Act. In any event, in most cases, law enforcement officers generally have the authority to detain a vehicle under suspicion while they go get (or at least try to get) a search warrant. It's not like dealing with an FAA Inspector who wants to ramp check you but has no authority to detain you if you refuse (only to cause you pain and agony later). In addition, before anyone does anything to annoy TSA, see what 14 CFR 61.18 says about what happens if you manage to get yourself elevated from the watch list to the threat list.
Click to expand...

No, there isn't.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=107_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ056.107
 
You should have flown past Li-berial and flown into HUT were a lot more friendly here.

Kevin
 
That'll teach you to fly your airplane so much!!

Just to make sure this gets sent to spin zone.... I blame this on the oil companies. I think that Ted flying so much and burning through so much 100LL has caused them to junk their idea of 'we don't make enough 100LL for it to be profitable'. Because of this, they decided to get the federalies on Ted's butt. :D :D :D
 
I am speechless!!!

The 'fraidy cat sheeple that tolerate this absolute BS from the government is beyond me. What kills me is that it is often the people that demand freedom who, at the same time support the a-holes who pass these laws.

My $.02

See if you can interest a news reporter in the story about overbearing government and their attempts to catch terrorist canines. A bumbling government is usually news.

Talk to the local ACLU. Ya I know a bunch of you guys think they are commies, but they live for this type of stuff and have been fighting the Patriot Act for a long time. They may be interested in this as an example of violation of privacy and the 4th amendment. Next up call the Chief of Staff of your local Congrescriters and complain to them. ASK THEM FOR HELP, you might get lucky and have one that has a chip on his shoulder about the DHS.

Any attorney here wish to comment about a possible civil rights lawsuit?

All of this is work, if you do nothing, then nothing will change. Well at least for the better.
 
wsuffa said:
Hardly in keeping with the spirit of "right to redress" and "due process". Last I checked, DHS and TSA are not military organizations.
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My years in the military never led me to the conclusion that service members lost either the "right to redress" or their "due process" rights. Those rights might be a bit different than the civilian world's, but the did exist.
In the case of TSA/DHS, you won't even know that you're on the list.
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As I said before, I think you'll figure it out quick enough. You may not be able to do anything about it, but I think you'll know what's wrong.
 
Tim Abbott said:
Time to get rid of the TSA and put the money towards something useful.

How about that gate agent that had the 4 year old take off his leg braces and walk through the metal detector unassisted?

They're a disaster.

Tim
Click to expand...

Not relevant to the discussion at hand. The OP's incident didn't have anything to do with TSA.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'd be interested to know if there's something in the Patriot Act which authorizes searches of aircraft owned/piloted by those on the watch list, or any other relevant language in that Act. In any event, in most cases, law enforcement officers generally have the authority to detain a vehicle under suspicion while they go get (or at least try to get) a search warrant. It's not like dealing with an FAA Inspector who wants to ramp check you but has no authority to detain you if you refuse (only to cause you pain and agony later). In addition, before anyone does anything to annoy TSA, see what 14 CFR 61.18 says about what happens if you manage to get yourself elevated from the watch list to the threat list.
Click to expand...

I doubt it was because he was on a watch list; it was probably because Customs was interested in the aircraft because its flights fit some pattern indicative of smuggling.
 
smigaldi said:
Talk to the local ACLU. Ya I know a bunch of you guys think they are commies, but they live for this type of stuff and have been fighting the Patriot Act for a long time. They may be interested in this as an example of violation of privacy and the 4th amendment.
Click to expand...

Scott, typically, when the ACLU steps up to protect someone whose beliefs and attitudes don't mesh with the complainers, well, that's when they are communists trying to tear down our country. Of course, when they step in to help someone with whom one agrees, that's protection of liberty.

A gutsy bunch, they surely are, and if they: (1) are not the government; (2) are not breaking the law; and (3) are p-ing off a lot of folks - odds are, they're doing something taht needs doing.

smigaldi said:
Next up call the Chief of Staff of your local Congrescriters and complain to them. ASK THEM FOR HELP, you might get lucky and have one that has a chip on his shoulder about the DHS.
Click to expand...

Yep - good idea. "Why are you harassing my public-spirited and generous constituent?"
 
Ron Levy said:
... In any event, in most cases, law enforcement officers generally have the authority to detain a vehicle under reasonable suspicion while they go get (or at least try to get) a search warrant. ...
Click to expand...

Fixed it for ya.

Now the question is: is it reasonable to detain an aircraft because someone in DC calls sheriff Bubba in Liberal and sez "Some guy who flys around a lot is fixin' to land at ya'lls airport. Why don't ya'll go and check'im out?"

I think it is rather unreasonable. In fact, it's abusive.
 
your last known destination was in the southwest. then all of the sudden a flight plan pops up for you departing liberal for north central iowa, very near two major interstate highways. Nothing in between to connect the dots so they can only think you are coming into Liberal from somewhere South. And you're doing it in the middle of the night. Plus they've busted at least two other airplanes in Liberal in the last couple months for doing the same sort of thing. I can see why they thought you were suspicious.
 
kkoran said:
I doubt it was because he was on a watch list; it was probably because Customs was interested in the aircraft because its flights fit some pattern indicative of smuggling.
Click to expand...

Of course it does. He flew to California and back over a weekend. SOUTHERN California. :yikes:
 
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