I'm not rich - how do I get regular access to a plane?

MattyG

MattyG

Filing Flight Plan
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Lackawanna, NY
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Matt
Hi Everyone,

I just went on my "Discovery Flight" with Clear Air Aviation, LLC today which served as my first flight lesson and I am officially HOOKED. Wow - this is definitely my new hobby and I am committed to getting my PPL. My instructor Steve was fantastic.

My question though is, short of purchasing an airplane, which I am not currently in a position to do, how do I get regular access to a plane?

I've seen airplane rentals for a certain dollar amount per hour - is that just for flying hours or would that be total hours during which you have possession of the plane? Like if I wanted to use a plane to fly to Cape Cod for a long weekend, would I be paying the hourly rate for flying time only or the full 4 days of use?

Do a lot of people do partnerships? Like go 50/50 with a friend on owning a plane? That would at least cut the cost in half.

Thanks!
 
Aircraft rentals are generally done by the hour, based on what's called a Hobbs meter. Either when the engine is running or electrical power is on the plane starts the clock. To protect the FBO and the plane owner, most rentals will have some kind of minimum rental hours per 24 hours. So taking a plane for a weekend, might cost you 4-6 hours at the rental rate.

As with everything else, you may be able to negotiate a better deal.

Some do partnerships. A quick search will yield many threads on the pros, cons and how to on partnerships.

I'm glad you're excited about flying. Take the next step and schedule that next lesson. Before you know it, you'll be flying solo.
 
MattyG said:
Hi Everyone,

I just went on my "Discovery Flight" with Clear Air Aviation, LLC today which served as my first flight lesson and I am officially HOOKED. Wow - this is definitely my new hobby and I am committed to getting my PPL. My instructor Steve was fantastic.

My question though is, short of purchasing an airplane, which I am not currently in a position to do, how do I get regular access to a plane?

I've seen airplane rentals for a certain dollar amount per hour - is that just for flying hours or would that be total hours during which you have possession of the plane? Like if I wanted to use a plane to fly to Cape Cod for a long weekend, would I be paying the hourly rate for flying time only or the full 4 days of use?

Do a lot of people do partnerships? Like go 50/50 with a friend on owning a plane? That would at least cut the cost in half.

Thanks!
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If you can afford 150$ per hour to rent for 10 hours a month then you can afford to buy. IMO

You only pay for the time in the plane that the engine or (hobbs) meter is running. If you stop at a differnt airport and grab a burger your not getting charged for that time the engine isnt running.

Partnerships are also a great idea, they have 50% 25% all the way down to whatever you can find. I've seen 1/16th ownership available.
 
you can probably find a cessna 152 in reasonably good shape for under $20,000, closer to $15,000 or less. buy the airplane instead of a new car.
 
See if you can find a flying club. I just left one (medial issue) that only cost me $45 per month dues, and a Cessna 172 was $86 per hour wet. Thats substantially less than a rental tainer goes for around here, and the club has a 182 an an Arrow when you want to move up.

Or, as others have note, you can probably afford a plane... just make sure you understand what a hangar and insurance are going to cost you. 152s, Cherokees, 172s, Beech Mousketeers are pretty cheap, as are some pretty decent Aeronca Champs and epecially Chiefs.
 
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When you rent the plane, you only pay for when the engine runs. There may be a daily minimum number of hours.

Another good way is to join a non- profit flying club. Everyone splits the costs. (You want to make sure the club is a non- profit). All the members are part owners.

Aircraft partnerships with one or two other people are also a good way to do it. You'll fly a nicer plane that way than you can typically rent.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
Aircraft rentals are generally done by the hour, based on what's called a Hobbs meter. Either when the engine is running or electrical power is on the plane starts the clock. To protect the FBO and the plane owner, most rentals will have some kind of minimum rental hours per 24 hours. So taking a plane for a weekend, might cost you 4-6 hours at the rental rate.

As with everything else, you may be able to negotiate a better deal.

Some do partnerships. A quick search will yield many threads on the pros, cons and how to on partnerships.

I'm glad you're excited about flying. Take the next step and schedule that next lesson. Before you know it, you'll be flying solo.
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To be clear, the minimums usually only apply to overnight use of the plane and can vary from a couple hours per day to three or four depending on the FBO. There are also clubs that you can join for a sign up fee (sometimes equity based, sometimes not) and a monthly fee that often don't have a minimum. Ask around in your area and see what the options are.
 
As others have mentioned, you might want to see if there are any flying clubs in your area, some of them offer pretty good deals compared to standard rentals. Sometimes it can be helpful to call your local AOPA airport representative or EAA chapter as they may have information relevant to your locale. I've also found that just hanging out at the local airport and chit-chatting with the pilots there can lead your down the right path to a partnership or some other similarly beneficial situation.
 
I would start by looking for a flying club.

All will rent you a plane. Some can also provide the instructor. The AOPA has a web page for finding a club.

Make sure you can get out of the club easily, without being stuck trying to "sell your share" to someone. Not all clubs are organized that way.
 
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jonnyjetprop said:
Aircraft rentals are generally done by the hour, based on what's called a Hobbs meter. Either when the engine is running or electrical power is on the plane starts the clock. To protect the FBO and the plane owner, most rentals will have some kind of minimum rental hours per 24 hours. So taking a plane for a weekend, might cost you 4-6 hours at the rental rate.
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Also, the hourly rate is typically (though not always) what's called "wet", which means fuel is included (though if you refuel away from your home base, you may have to pay for any cost in excess of your home base's fuel rate). Always ask your FBO for details.
 
Thanks for all the great advice!

As far as owning a plane, I've noticed prices vary greatly - I've seen Cessnas for as cheap as $10K to as expensive as $388K (the 2014 model). Is a $15K - $20K Cessna actually worth buying? What are maintenance/insurance/hangar costs like annually?
 
Cost of ownership varies, but it will soon total much more than $15 to $20k. So the initial purchase price is just a starter.

Ask yourself if these numbers sound comfortable or scary:

$1k or more per month, plus fuel at $60 per hour, not including any loan payments.

$25k at an unexpected time for a major repair.

If those two figures sound like they might work for you, then it's worth investigating ownership more to pin it down better. If they are way too much, then you know you need a club, which is going to be the case for most folks.
 
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NoHeat said:
Cost of ownership varies, but it will soon total much more than $15 to $20k. So the initial purchase price is just a starter.

Ask yourself if these numbers sound comfortable or scary:

$1k or more per month, plus fuel at $60 per hour, not including any loan payments.

$25k at an unexpected time for a major repair.

If those two figures sound like they might work for you, then it's worth investigating ownership more to pin it down better. If they are way too much, then you know you need a club, which is going to be the case for most folks.
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There you go, scare heck out of the poor guy. Another convert I'm sure.....
 
NoHeat said:
Cost of ownership varies, but it will soon total much more than $15 to $20k. So the initial purchase price is just a starter.

Ask yourself if these numbers sound comfortable or scary:

$1k or more per month, plus fuel at $60 per hour, not including any loan payments.

$25k at an unexpected time for a major repair.

If those two figures sound like they might work for you, then it's worth investigating ownership more to pin it down better. If they are way too much, then you know you need a club, which is going to be the case for most folks.
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Those numbers are not a representation of a normal ownership cost.

My 235 costs 1250$ per month to fly 10 hours. This includes hanger,insurance, fuel&oil AND the loan paymen. Your trying to scare the guy.

25K and unexpected time for major repair? Yea cause thats normal right? Wrong. I dont have 25K saved up at all. Am I scared, hell no. If I want to sell my plane with out an engine i'll lose about 10K, way better then shelling out 25K for a reman.

If I want to fix a motor issue, I just wont fly for a few months or a year.

Keep in mind, my 235 uses 14GPH. You get a 172 and you'll use way less.
 
I have owned a 78 Archer for about 10 months now. So far my non-fuel costs have been 140/mo t-hangar rental, about $1500 in avionics repairs, about $3000 for annual inspection which included a couple spendy items. Insurance for me as a student pilot is just under $1,000/year.

YMMV I know these things vary quite a bit with location, aircraft, and luck.
 
Well you said you're not rich, so I'm not sure what that means... but if it's what I think it means, your best bet is to join a flying club or rent an airplane from the flight school.
 
Also, should you decide to buy check out hangaring or tie down rates. They can vary greatly by location.
 
Your close to Dunkirk. Go to the FBO owned by Lou Nalbone at Dunkirk airport. He's been there for many years. He will explain it all to you. Partnerships , unless you know the other partners well can be very costly. Usually partnerships are only good for dancing and f$&@ ing.
 
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Find a good partnership. I am one of 5, availability is still good. The hangar next to us is a 172 owned by a 12 way partnership. That plane is booked solid until october. The best cost benefit ratio is at 3 partners, adding n+1 partners has diminishing returns.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Those numbers are not a representation of a normal ownership cost.
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I did say that costs vary. So it is no surprise to find someone with lower costs. It is good to have your numbers, as a datapoint for the OP and lurkers alike.

And I do congratulate you for flying 10 hours per month without any mentionable maintenance costs. Most of us have to pay those, and in many cases they will represent the biggest line item of the ballpark $1k monthly non-fuel, non-loan cost that I mentioned.
 
I am in a club of 16 members around 2 aircraft, wwww.metroflyersclub.com

While I have the means to be a sole owner, this particular club arrangement make for a smarter use of the money. Modest equity buy-in, $300/mo dues, and very affordable rental rate.

Many benefits abound, including access to the knowledge of other capable pilots, the club A&P who is more than willing to teach how to be a good airplane owner and how to do the permitted owner allowed maintenance, and lots of affordable flying.

Yup, a good club is definitely a solid solution to having access to a good aircraft.
 
And if you hang around the local airports and meet enough pilots, you will uncover some "hidden" and "word-of-mouth only" deals.

I have come across a few of these unadvertised opportunities recently that would be a good fit for me if I wasn't already a 1/16th owner of 2 airplanes.
 
Additional recurring costs, which are factors for some owners but not others, include property tax (depending tremendously on where you live) and data subscriptions (depending on your panel and how you fly). For me, those two items together cost more than insurance.
 
I paid $19k for my EZ, $5k for some avionics upgrades. My all-in monthly costs (hangar, insurance, annual and contingency maintenance, fuel and oil) are about $650/month for the 10 hours of flying that I average; but the marginal cost of flying another 160 knot IFR hour is only $30. It is all mine and I can go where I want, when I want.

Beats the heck out of renting.
 
As an owner, the first hour you fly every month/year is super expensive. After that they get cheaper in a hurry.

That said, I think that for the average GA pilot, total ownership and operating costs of about $12,000 per year are typical. They do vary tremendously. There are folks on this board who pay $50 a month for a hangar and some who pay $1,500.
 
Thank you for all the great replies!

Sounds like ownership may be a little out of my range at the moment. Especially after I've spent some $20K on my PPL and instrument rating.

I will talk to my instructor and the folks at the airport to find out about potential partnerships. There are a few local flying clubs, but they require a referral, so perhaps I can get that now that I am "in" the scene.

Thanks again for sharing your stories and knowledge everyone!!
 
Aside from looking at buying, during flight training you might come across someone who's willing to let you build time in their plane. I didn't expect anything like that, but after I passed my checkride, my instructor starting offering to split time in a Sundowner for nothing but the cost of fuel. Isn't loggable as PIC for me as a sport pilot, but offers like that do come up. Lot of generous people out there who know that some of us aren't going to be in a position to do anything but rent for a while.
 
MattyG said:
I just went on my "Discovery Flight" with Clear Air Aviation, LLC today which served as my first flight lesson and I am officially HOOKED. Wow - this is definitely my new hobby and I am committed to getting my PPL. My instructor Steve was fantastic.
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Awesome - Welcome to the club! :)

My question though is, short of purchasing an airplane, which I am not currently in a position to do, how do I get regular access to a plane?
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Depends what you mean by "regular access." There are lots of rentals out there, and most of them are available "regularly" for lessons and short flights. If you're wanting to go on a long weekend trip on a whim on Friday, different story.

I've seen airplane rentals for a certain dollar amount per hour - is that just for flying hours or would that be total hours during which you have possession of the plane? Like if I wanted to use a plane to fly to Cape Cod for a long weekend, would I be paying the hourly rate for flying time only or the full 4 days of use?
Click to expand...

Just the hours the engine is running, generally. You'll also see rates listed as "wet" (Including fuel) or "dry" which doesn't include fuel - So you'll need to add the fuel cost to a dry rate to figure out what you'd be paying in that case. For something like a Cessna 172, figure about 8 gph * $6/gal = $48/hr.

You'll also sometimes see "Hobbs" vs. "Tach" time. Most rentals are on Hobbs time, but many clubs bill by tach time. Hobbs time is pretty much the time the engine is running (or in some cases, the time the Master switch is on). Tach time is based on the speed of the engine, so you won't be paying full price for the time you're taxiing around on the ground, and you'll generally spend less when doing pattern work and other reduced-power operations as well.

As mentioned previously, often there's a minimum per-day charge so you don't fly an hour away, stay for a week, and fly back - The flight school could have put a lot of hours on the plane while you were holding it hostage!

Do a lot of people do partnerships? Like go 50/50 with a friend on owning a plane? That would at least cut the cost in half.
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Yes. TONS of people fly in clubs or in partnerships.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
If you can afford 150$ per hour to rent for 10 hours a month then you can afford to buy. IMO
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Yeah, I would say this is true. $1500/month is about what I figure I spend on the Mooney, and that's a high-performance, complex airplane. No capital costs involved, though.

DaleB said:
See if you can find a flying club. I just left one (medial issue) that only cost me $45 per month dues, and a Cessna 172 was $86 per hour wet. Thats substantially less than a rental tainer goes for around here, and the club has a 182 an an Arrow when you want to move up.
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Yep - Joining a flying club is a GREAT way to get into flying, meet more people, and learn about aircraft ownership without having to learn everything the hard way. Joining the club linked to in my signature is really one of the things that has contributed most to both my skill and enjoyment as a pilot.

MattyG said:
As far as owning a plane, I've noticed prices vary greatly - I've seen Cessnas for as cheap as $10K to as expensive as $388K (the 2014 model). Is a $15K - $20K Cessna actually worth buying? What are maintenance/insurance/hangar costs like annually?
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A plane that is cheap to buy is cheap to buy for a reason.

You'll find lots of Cessna 150/152's in the 15-20 thousand range. They're slow and only have two seats, so while they're great trainers, they're not so great for going on trips. But, you can get one in that $15-20K range that doesn't have anything major wrong with it. If you just want to poke holes in the sky and go for $100 hamburger runs, there's nothing wrong with buying and owning one.

Moving up the ladder a bit, you can find a good older Cessna 172 or Piper Cherokee 160/180/Warrior/Archer for $35K. You'll go 10-15 knots faster and gain a couple of seats, so it's good for taking your family or friends sightseeing, or taking one person with you on a short (say, 300-mile) trip for a weekend. However, if you find one of these in the $15-20K range, RUN. It's likely got a high time engine, or it's out of annual, or... Not to say you can't find a good deal from someone who's trying to unload it fast for other reasons, but tread VERY carefully.

Moving up the ladder one more time, a good Cessna 182 can be had in the $50-60K range. You'll gain another 20 knots over the 172, you'll be able to fill both the seats and the fuel tanks, and you'll get a bigger cabin. The 182 is a great airplane for a family of four with bigger kids, and with the extra speed and range you'll be able to take longer trips with everyone (say, 400 miles - Realize that the rest of the family probably doesn't want to sit in a plane for as long as you do) and take more stuff. Again, if you find a 182 for $20K, RUN. And nobody's going to give you a deal that good on one that's worth it, period.
 
MattyG said:
Thank you for all the great replies!

Sounds like ownership may be a little out of my range at the moment. Especially after I've spent some $20K on my PPL and instrument rating.

I will talk to my instructor and the folks at the airport to find out about potential partnerships. There are a few local flying clubs, but they require a referral, so perhaps I can get that now that I am "in" the scene.

Thanks again for sharing your stories and knowledge everyone!!
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I'm also in the "join a club" camp if you can find a good one. A club will give you a significant appreciation for the ownership experience with very little financial risk. If the club has some different types you'll also get a chance to learn more about what you want, like, and dislike in an airplane. Plus the social aspect of most good clubs can provide mentorship and motivation to continue pursuing your aviation interests.

Buying an airplane, even in partnership with a few other pilots can be very rewarding but it's also quite possible to get in way over your head financially without a clear understanding of the potential risks. There are indeed affordable airplanes that cost less to purchase and maintain than most SUVs but there are also some $15,000 airplanes that will end up costing you $50,000 in the first few years not including fuel. At this point in your recreational aviation experience how would you tell the difference?

There are good and bad deals in clubs as well so take your time and check into as many possibilities as you can find. Look for one that has a fairly steady member population size and if more than 4 members are involved, one that's controlled by a subgroup of the members and elected by the full group. There's not much quite as dysfunctional as a group of 25 pilots trying to collectively manage a flying club. A good club will have reasonably well maintained airplanes and a well developed set of rules to keep things like expenses, scheduling, and share transfers fair. Ask for references by long term members as well as past members, each will have a useful perspective.

There may come a time when you're airplane needs would be better met by sole ownership or a small partnership but after a few years in a good club you'll be much better equipped to make a good choice about that.
 
I got my 1977 Piper Warrior II for $30k with a fresh annual, had a little over 1000 hours on the engine since the last major overhaul however the airframe time was over 7000 hours so that drove the price down a little. I enjoy the plane and it is currently my trainer...once I am certified to learn on my own who knows where I will take it or where it will take me!

Hanger fees for my own hanger run me a little over $2k a year.
 
MattyG said:
I will talk to my instructor and the folks at the airport to find out about potential partnerships. There are a few local flying clubs, but they require a referral, so perhaps I can get that now that I am "in" the scene.
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Make sure you talk to all of the mechanics you can find. They typically know which airplanes are being kept airworthy by owners who don't fly much, and cold calling those folks may lead to something as well.
 
Find an owner that doesn't fly there plane much and offer to share expenses with them. I take care of a c150 for an owner that never flies. The plane is mine to use, maintain, insure, etc. We do put $15/hr into an overhaul fund.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Those numbers are not a representation of a normal ownership cost.

My 235 costs 1250$ per month to fly 10 hours. This includes hanger,insurance, fuel&oil AND the loan paymen. Your trying to scare the guy.

25K and unexpected time for major repair? Yea cause thats normal right? Wrong. I dont have 25K saved up at all. Am I scared, hell no. If I want to sell my plane with out an engine i'll lose about 10K, way better then shelling out 25K for a reman.

If I want to fix a motor issue, I just wont fly for a few months or a year.

Keep in mind, my 235 uses 14GPH. You get a 172 and you'll use way less.
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I would agree:

On a 150/152, ANNUAL (not monthly) maintenance might run $1200 a year, say $2000 with the annual. The loan might add another $100 or so a month, monthly fixed cost might be in the $150-$200 range (assuming a tie-down vs a hangar {add $400-500 if you want a hangar}; ops cost maybe about $30-50 per hour PLUS gas ($30-40/hr).

Those higher costs might be more appropriate to a 182 or 206 or something like that
 
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A lot of us old farts have been trying to get young would-be pilots infected with the flying bug -- with no takers. For example, I'm in a dog club with over 100 members; posted an all-hands memo offering free airplane rides. Guess how many responses? 0

Bottom line: bum around your home drome and talk to some airplane owners. You might be surprised how many guys would be willing to share their passion.
 
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