Skylane81E
Final Approach
Please educate those of us who haven't done this, what is the ethical way to go about it?
I'm looking for another project..
- Thread starter Tom-D
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Please educate those of us who haven't done this, what is the ethical way to go about it?
wanttaja
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All that means is a DAR didn't follow the FARs... which is not that unusual. Two people cannot both be the "...primary builder of the aircraft...." See 14CFR 65.104(a)(2) and AC65-23A.
Will the airplane be delivered with a complete and valid Airworthiness Certificate? Will your name listed as the manufacturer? Also, will you listed as the manufacturer on the Registration?
Ron Wanttaja
Tom-D
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Remember the quote the job isn't finished until the paper work is complete.
Why would you believe I would cheat the customer by delivering any aircraft that was not legal to fly? How could I sell any aircraft that the FAA didn't think I owned?
Or are you checking me out so I can build you a project, are you interested in having me do some thing for you.
Anymouse
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Total Stud Bush Pilot
In order to have an experimental aircraft certified as amateur built, it needs to be constructed for education or recreation. In the bolded statement above, Tom is holding out as a professional builder (If you pay me, I will build it for you). So, this project would not qualify under the 51% rule because he's considered professionally built. To get around that, Tom wants to either lie on the affidavit that says it was built for education or recreation, or have the owner lie and say he did it. That is unethical.
BTW... I have no problem with the restoration part.
wabower
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Wayne
All the FAA paperwork issues aside, money is the big unknown that underlies all of these projects, and the cause of most of the heart-burn.
The estimates are simply SWAGS and once you're in, you're trapped. You can be upside down so fast that you need a low-level acro waiver just to drive by the hangar.
The estimates are simply SWAGS and once you're in, you're trapped. You can be upside down so fast that you need a low-level acro waiver just to drive by the hangar.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
Is it legal to give anyone a kit, or materials to build an aircraft?
Is it legal to tell the builder what color you like ?
Is it legal for you to send the builder the instruments you would like to use in the aircraft?
Is it legal for you to buy the aircraft on a payment schedule?
Is it legal for you buy the aircraft after the builder completes it?
Tom-D
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Tom-D
Right on the money. Do you want some thing special? how are you going to get it ? pay and pay.
I don't know anyone who can build a EXP cheaper than they can buy one for. (even with the upgrades to their expectations)
wabower
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Wayne
You nailed it. There's nothing extra-special about most of the projects for non-exotic warbirds and antique airplanes in the GA fleet that can't be duplicated by buying one that's already flying. The 195 in WA clearly falls into that category. Buying that project is like going to the racetrack hoping you'll break even because you need the money. At 40-some thousand, it might be worthwhile. At 60-some thousand it's a fool's errand.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
Not yet I haven't.
Any one I would enter into a project like this will have to do some trusting, think about it, why would they trust me to build the aircraft and not trust me with the money/parts/ect?
Wayne..
That 195 looks like an easy project, "AS ADVERTIZED" it appears that one could remove it from Prez, do the annual, and fly it away. but the price would be the question.
My costs would be $50 per hour, fixing grips, plus the standard $350 for the inspection Thund Field (where it is) is about 20 minute flight from here.
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wabower
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Wayne
Downstream issues are significant. Anything that has been sitting for 10 years is problematic, and budget should reflect those costs as well. I'll call the guy to get more details. It could work, but I'm not optimistic.
wanttaja
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Tom, I expect you'll deliver what you say you'll deliver, but you're evading the question and that makes me wonder.
There's a block on the application for airworthiness for the Manufacturer's name.
I ask again, will your name be listed as the manufacturer on the Airworthiness Certificate"? Will the same be listed on the FAA Registration?
If not...why?
Ron Wanttaja
jhausch
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New Favorite Quote:
You can be upside down so fast that you need a low-level acro waiver just to drive by the hangar.
-Wayne B.
I think there should be a section on Barnstormers/Controller/et. al. called "Upside Down Aircraft - Low Level Acro Permit Required"
You can be upside down so fast that you need a low-level acro waiver just to drive by the hangar.
-Wayne B.
I think there should be a section on Barnstormers/Controller/et. al. called "Upside Down Aircraft - Low Level Acro Permit Required"
New Favorite Quote:
You can be upside down so fast that you need a low-level acro waiver just to drive by the hangar.
-Wayne B.
I think there should be a section on Barnstormers/Controller/et. al. called "Upside Down Aircraft - Low Level Acro Permit Required"
Someone on the PB said most of Waynes posts qualify for post of the month, and I agree.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
I'm not avoiding the question, I have stated that the paper work will be legal, and the aircraft registered in my name. and sold to the new owner as a used aircraft. If that isn't clear enough, I don't know what is.
you and I both know the builder is the manufacturer on the request for the airworthiness certificate, so what's the issue ? Legal paper work is legal paper work. It is the same as if you built a EZ, got an N number for it got it inspected and signed off by the FAA, registered it, flew it, and sold it to me.
Next question, If you bought a kit that was 51% compliant and dropped it off at my hangar, and supervised me in the assembly of it, who is the builder/owner/repairman?
Your reference might be all the industrial arts schools that do just that and the teacher gets the Repairman's certificate.
wanttaja
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The issue is, every time I ask about the Airworthiness Certificate, you respond with details about the registration. I don't care who the registered owner is.
Because you've never stated that it will be your name as the Manufacturer on the Airworthiness Certificate, despite my asking. Stating what the usual practice is, is not the same as stating that you will be listed as the manufacturer. Frankly, Tom, you're behaving like a politician.
Tom, you no doubt have an excellent understanding of the legal issues of Part 43 work, but I suggest you review the FARs and the ACs regarding experimental amateur-built aircraft.
The 51% rule is solely for certification; it has no relationship to the Repairman Certificate. In fact, it has no regulatory basis. 14CFR 21.191 (g) says that Airworthiness Certificates for Experimental Amateur-Built aircraft are issued to allow "...Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation."
The "51% rule" is the FAA's implementation of the "major portion" part of 21.191(g). Advisory Circular AC20-27F gives further details on how this is implemented. Please note the last row on the table at the bottom of Page 5.
The Repairman Certificate is completely separate from the "major portion" aspect of 21.191(g). It's governed by 14CFR 65.104(a)(2)..."To be eligible for a Repairman Certificate (Experimental aircraft builder), an individual must...Be the primary builder of the aircraft..."
There is no "51%" rule for the Repairman Certificate; "Primary Builder" is usually just a matter of someone declaring that status. So...
"Your reference might be all the industrial arts schools that do just that and the teacher gets the Repairman's certificate."
The airplane gets a valid Experimental Amateur-Built Airworthiness Certificate because the aircraft was constructed solely for education. The Teacher gets the Repairman Certificate because, even though he's paid, because the Repairman Certificate is completely separate from the "...solely for education and recreation" requirement.
So, to return to your question:
"If you bought a kit that was 51% compliant and dropped it off at my hangar, and supervised me in the assembly of it, who is the builder/owner/repairman?"
If I were the DAR, I'd want to see proof that the airplane was constructed SOLELY for "education or recreation." I'd be a bit skeptical on those grounds, since the plane is sitting in hangar owned by someone who advertises that he'll build homebuilts for hire. I'd grill the "amateur builder" to see what he knows about how the airplane was built, what the assembly sequence ones, major dates, etc. If he doesn't even know how to use a rivet gun, I'd be highly suspicious as to the claim that the airplane was built SOLELY for "education or recreation."
*If* I were willing to sign off on the Ex-AB Airworthiness, it's because I'm convinced that the "builder" probably did the majority of work that's required under 21.191. If that were the case, I'd just about *have* to sign off on the Repairman Certificate as well. If I certify that 51% of the work was done by someone OTHER than the kit manufacturer or hired gun, then the only person left is the "builder."
If I refuse to issue an Experimental Amateur-Built Airworthiness Certificate, the "owner" is going to expect a refund from you. Are you going to be prepared to pay back his $50,000-$100K+?
Let's say the DAR was a buddy of yours, and signed off the paperwork. But what happens if the FAA goes into another review of "hired gun" practices, and the owner gets a registered letter two years later canceling the Airworthiness due to suspected fraud. Are you going to be prepared to pay him back then, too?
Some hired guns try to minimize problem by listing the buyer as the manufacturer of the aircraft... if the FAA decides that "Joe Smith" is a hired gun who was involved in fraudulently certifying a number of Experimental Amateur-Built aircraft, it's too easy to track them down if he uses his own name as the manufacturer. Hence my repeated questions about who will be listed as the manufacturer of the airplanes you propose to build, and my concern when you continue to answer with information about who will be the legal owner.
Ron Wanttaja
Tom-D
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Tom-D
If you were the DAR or FAA that came to my hangar to see the aircraft that I built, that I requested the N Number for and I requested the certification for why would even suspect there was any other involved in the build?
Is the FAA allowed to ask who paid for what ? NO.
If you and I had an agreement that you would buy my aircraft after it was built and flying would the FAA care? NO
the person who is buying the USED aircraft doesn't even enter the picture until the aircraft is build certified and flying.
So, the FAA can't refuse to issue the EXP airworthiness certificate because I will meet all the requirements of the rule.
I can build as many EXP aircraft as I want and the FAA can't do a thing about it as long as I certify/license them in my name.
if you are worried about who gets the repairman's certificate, I wouldn't even apply for one, because I don't need it and the second owner doesn't qualify.
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Tom-D
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Tom-D
A pretty good guide to the how to for certification of a home built.
http://www.eaa206.org/tech_pdf/Certify_Homebuilt_Airplane.pdf
http://www.eaa206.org/tech_pdf/Certify_Homebuilt_Airplane.pdf
Tom-D
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Tom-D
Ron, If this is what you having fit about, it's not a problem.
Aircraft Builder’s Name (Make). Enter the name of the builder or manufacturer as it appears on the aircraft ID plate in accordance with FAR 45.13(a)(1).
1 For amateur-built aircraft, the aircraft make is the name of the builder. When two or more persons are involved, enter only the name of the individual listed first on the aircraft ID plate.
Yes it does place the liability on me as the builder, but there are ways around that. (see para #3 in the link above)
Aircraft Builder’s Name (Make). Enter the name of the builder or manufacturer as it appears on the aircraft ID plate in accordance with FAR 45.13(a)(1).
1 For amateur-built aircraft, the aircraft make is the name of the builder. When two or more persons are involved, enter only the name of the individual listed first on the aircraft ID plate.
Yes it does place the liability on me as the builder, but there are ways around that. (see para #3 in the link above)
jhausch
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PeteJE
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Tom-D
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Tom-D
MY rules on aircraft projects are "I must be able to fly them home" but a kit that is partially competed, maybe the exception.
Tom-D
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I think I have found what I 'd like to build next..
http://www.cubcrafters.com/carboncubex
Who wants in..
http://www.cubcrafters.com/carboncubex
Who wants in..
Tom-D
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Tom-D
It has sold, been restored, and is setting in Port Townsend in the museum.