I'm giving a FR, to KMWH.....13,000 ft runway

kgruber

kgruber

Final Approach
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I'm giving a friend a FR in his Grumman Traveller. Planning on an engine cut on takeoff at 200ft AGL, from the end of RWY 14L/32R, a 13,000' runway. What should I look out for?
 
Your friend not being aggressive enough getting the nose down to maintain flying speed. Especially if your ar simulating a short field takeoff at the same time,

Might want to let the tower know beforehand what you plan so they don’t get too excited.
 
I did one of my PP solo flights to that airport. Until you’ve been on a runway that large (it’s 200’ wide), you have no idea what to expect. It’s almost disorienting.
 
Slow to reduce angle of attack? Getting off the right rudder, maybe?

I'm guessing he won't overeact and do a violent pitch down, but just in case. . .
 
Not sure what flaps that plane has...but he might/will try land it no flaps and too fast and porpoise or thunk it really hard.

If there's a respectable xw component maybe he'll focus so hard on just getting it down that he side loads a tire really bad or lands off to the side at and angle heading quick to the edge of the runway.

Maybe there's a lot of wind up 200ft and after takeoff he's not centered over the runway where you like.

He panics and pulls the mixture...probably what I'd do like a dork :) Or something unwanted fuel wise.
 
Is this a necessary exercise? Or one that could be accomplished at altitude? I personally don’t recommend unexpected procedures at low altitude.

I was doing a rental checkout and the CFI pulled an engine out abeam the numbers on downwind. No problem I’ll just fly a quick base to lose altitude and land it, which is what I began doing. Nope. He wanted me to turn direct to the runway from 1000 agl. I’ve never felt unsafe in an aircraft until then. Full slip from an angle, with him whining about being in a full flap full slip configuration. Got it down but I was ****ed at myself for letting a CFI put me in an unsafe situation.

Make sure your fellow pilot feels the procedure is safe. Brief it ahead of time and make sure you are both okay with the expectations and procedures.Otherwise I wouldn’t do it.

If that aircraft is like a Tiger which I expect it is then of course use caution with heavy braking.
 
Sinistar said:
Not sure what flaps that plane has...but he might/will try land it no flaps and too fast and porpoise or thunk it really hard.

If there's a respectable xw component maybe he'll focus so hard on just getting it down that he side loads a tire really bad or lands off to the side at and angle heading quick to the edge of the runway.

Maybe there's a lot of wind up 200ft and after takeoff he's not centered over the runway where you like.

He panics and pulls the mixture...probably what I'd do like a dork :) Or something unwanted fuel wise.
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Pulling mixture is part of the normal emergency procedure. Along with fuel shut off. That’s why it needs to be briefed ahead of time.
 
woodchucker said:
Is this a necessary exercise? Or one that could be accomplished at altitude? I personally don’t recommend unexpected procedures at low altitude.

I was doing a rental checkout and the CFI pulled an engine out abeam the numbers on downwind. No problem I’ll just fly a quick base to lose altitude and land it, which is what I began doing. Nope. He wanted me to turn direct to the runway from 1000 agl. I’ve never felt unsafe in an aircraft until then. Full slip from an angle, with him whining about being in a full flap full slip configuration. Got it down but I was ****ed at myself for letting a CFI put me in an unsafe situation.

Make sure your fellow pilot feels the procedure is safe. Brief it ahead of time and make sure you are both okay with the expectations and procedures.Otherwise I wouldn’t do it.

If that aircraft is like a Tiger which I expect it is then of course use caution with heavy braking.
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There was a point in my aviation journey where I would have allowed that to happen as well.

I learned from it. Make sure you do as well. You are the PIC and have final authority on what happens in your cockpit.
 
woodchucker said:
Is this a necessary exercise? Or one that could be accomplished at altitude? I personally don’t recommend unexpected procedures at low altitude.

I was doing a rental checkout and the CFI pulled an engine out abeam the numbers on downwind. No problem I’ll just fly a quick base to lose altitude and land it, which is what I began doing. Nope. He wanted me to turn direct to the runway from 1000 agl. I’ve never felt unsafe in an aircraft until then. Full slip from an angle, with him whining about being in a full flap full slip configuration. Got it down but I was ****ed at myself for letting a CFI put me in an unsafe situation.

Make sure your fellow pilot feels the procedure is safe. Brief it ahead of time and make sure you are both okay with the expectations and procedures.Otherwise I wouldn’t do it.

If that aircraft is like a Tiger which I expect it is then of course use caution with heavy braking.
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What do you think was unsafe? My instructor has pulled power on me many times, it’s part of engine out procedures. Unsafe that he told you to be high over the threshold? Why were flaps in abeam the numbers?
 
I don’t personally like the idea of pulling power at low altitude. It just seems like a recipe for turning a simulated emergency into a real one. On the other hand, that’s a really long runway and there is nothing like practical experience. I think if I were your student I would want knowledge of it beforehand. I am on the fence.
 
You should be prepared for anything you can think of and things you cannot think of.

I always tell my instructors that I take no offense and they should have no hesitation to reach for the controls should they feel the need because they are uncomfortable with something I am doing, it doesn't rattle me and it shouldn't rattle or offend anyone.

Unfortunately, for my ego, I evoked a flinch out of my instructor on my last flight. It was an unplanned demonstration of torque roll and p factor because of my error with angle of attack not appropriate for where I was at (touchdown to going missed) and application of power in this state. The airplane flew before it and I was ready. It happened quickly, I reacted quickly and fixed it before he got to the controls, it was that fast. We talked about it, mainly why it happened and I apologized, it was a good lesson learned. It also was a great demonstration of why not to fly while fatigued, we had done many approaches over the last 2 hours.

Pulling power at 200 feet with 8,000 feet of runway ahead of you should be a simple thing and it is better not to tell the student IMO. My first instructor did it many times, with a shorter runway before my private pilot check ride.
 
Let's assume a 1000' ground roll at MWH (elev. ~1200', rwy 13,500'). and a 500 fpm climb at 73 mph. We will ignore angle of climb.
2/5 of a minute (24 seconds) to 200' AGL, requiring 2570' linear feet (call it 2600). If you take off from 34, you'll lose 500' of runway because of where the taxiway intersects the runway.

500+1000+2600=4100' Engine out 4100' down the runway leaving only 9400' of runway for landing. Sounds risky to me. :)

Let us know how they do.
 
kgruber said:
I'm giving a friend a FR in his Grumman Traveller. Planning on an engine cut on takeoff at 200ft AGL, from the end of RWY 14L/32R, a 13,000' runway. What should I look out for?
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My first thought was.....



The runway.:idea:
 
Unit74 said:
I see you have flown with Nate......
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LOL. I was taught by smarter people than I!

The really funny one was I was guarding and also hanging on to the throttle one day...

CFI just grabbed my elbow and pulled my arm back. Hahaha.

One of the local DPEs does demos sitting in side by side chairs for CFI candidates of “How to get a frozen student off of the controls.” Or, alternatively “How to control the aircraft with a frozen student on the controls.”

Same sort of stuff. :)
 
Guarding never worked for me, I would just get a "Pull the throttle back, your engine just failed."
 
13k sheesh. You probably could practice it a couple of times before going around. I can’t imagine what that sight picture would look like. I bet that be be pretty disorienting if you aren’t used to it.
 
bflynn said:
What do you think was unsafe? My instructor has pulled power on me many times, it’s part of engine out procedures. Unsafe that he told you to be high over the threshold? Why were flaps in abeam the numbers?
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Unsafe in that I could have easily flown a pattern with a stabilized final rather than approaching the runway high at a 30* angle and needing to unload from a slip and make the correction to match runway heading all within a few seconds. It was an unsafe demand from the CFI. Yes, normally in an engine out you make direct to runway but in the specific scenario he put me it wasn’t necessary.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
There was a point in my aviation journey where I would have allowed that to happen as well.

I learned from it. Make sure you do as well. You are the PIC and have final authority on what happens in your cockpit.
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Yeah, that was a definite lesson learned for me.
 
woodchucker said:
Unsafe in that I could have easily flown a pattern with a stabilized final rather than approaching the runway high at a 30* angle and needing to unload from a slip and make the correction to match runway heading all within a few seconds. It was an unsafe demand from the CFI. Yes, normally in an engine out you make direct to runway but in the specific scenario he put me it wasn’t necessary.
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All my power off 180 were like that, it makes sense if you know you can’t make it or may not have enough alt , but having enough altitude doesn’t warrant flying like that. Good practice nonetheless
 
My power off 180s have been half circles, usually landing 500-1000 ft down the runway. Just practice.

If you don’t like how your instructor does it, practice it on your own and fly it to the same end result. I have to admit, I didn’t like doing aggressive S-turns on short final when I first learned it, but they are very effective and worth learning.
 
I took a flight with a CFI in Colorado specifically for mountain flying and short field ops. His landing procedure is often the same that is mentioned on this forum, power to idle a few seconds after passing abeam the numbers and immediate base to final.

Kinda off topic though from the OP discussion thread. I would probably specifically brief loss of power on takeoff roll and loss of power with room to land. Make sure you both have the same expectations as to what actions will occur.
 
woodchucker said:
Unsafe in that I could have easily flown a pattern with a stabilized final rather than approaching the runway high at a 30* angle and needing to unload from a slip and make the correction to match runway heading all within a few seconds. It was an unsafe demand from the CFI. Yes, normally in an engine out you make direct to runway but in the specific scenario he put me it wasn’t necessary.
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Well, if you believe that to be the correct "normal' action then the CFI was entirely justified in making you perform that.
 
So exactly how many 13K runways do you think the student will have the power fail on?
 
skyking3286 said:
So exactly how many 13K runways do you think the student will have the power fail on?
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That depends on where he is based, where I am, there is a 50% or more chance that my share of 200 AGL fan stopping will be either on a 9k feet or 6k feet runway
 
woodchucker said:
Is this a necessary exercise? Or one that could be accomplished at altitude? I personally don’t recommend unexpected procedures at low altitude.

I was doing a rental checkout and the CFI pulled an engine out abeam the numbers on downwind. No problem I’ll just fly a quick base to lose altitude and land it, which is what I began doing. Nope. He wanted me to turn direct to the runway from 1000 agl. I’ve never felt unsafe in an aircraft until then. Full slip from an angle, with him whining about being in a full flap full slip configuration. Got it down but I was ****ed at myself for letting a CFI put me in an unsafe situation..
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We've had very different experiences and training. On my PP checkride, the DPE pulled the power on my first takeoff. It's something my flight instructor routinely did as my training advanced. Pulling the power in the pattern or close to an airport (or sometimes not) was routine. Abeam the numbers... waste no time, make SURE you always have the runway made, and once you're sure, slip, S-turns, whatever it takes to lose enough altitude w/out gaining too much airspeed to get there, etc... this is training in emergency procedures. There very well MAY be a time when you need to be able to "dive" to a small field. How are you supposed to be able to handle a real emergency situation if you don't practice them, or always brief them and fly the same stabilized approach every time? I don't think your CFI put you in an unsafe position if you had altitude to spare... he tried to teach you how to safely deal with a less-than-ideal approach in an emergency... or at least further bolster your confidence in your ability to do so.
 
I don't think the length of the runway should even be considered. You would be making assumptions about the pilots planning for an eventual landing.

That said, As long as his initial reaction is to lower the nose and set up a glide straight ahead, that should end the maneuver. You can continue with the climb and discuss possible landing areas on the way...
 
MuseChaser said:
We've had very different experiences and training. On my PP checkride, the DPE pulled the power on my first takeoff. It's something my flight instructor routinely did as my training advanced. Pulling the power in the pattern or close to an airport (or sometimes not) was routine. Abeam the numbers... waste no time, make SURE you always have the runway made, and once you're sure, slip, S-turns, whatever it takes to lose enough altitude w/out gaining too much airspeed to get there, etc... this is training in emergency procedures. There very well MAY be a time when you need to be able to "dive" to a small field. How are you supposed to be able to handle a real emergency situation if you don't practice them, or always brief them and fly the same stabilized approach every time? I don't think your CFI put you in an unsafe position if you had altitude to spare... he tried to teach you how to safely deal with a less-than-ideal approach in an emergency... or at least further bolster your confidence in your ability to do so.
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Not to beat the horse, but in the specific situation I’m referring to we were abeam the numbers on downwind. A square turn (just like a base turn) WOULD BE the most direct path to the runway, rather than tooling along at an angle towards it. I wanted to do the former. He asked me to do the latter. Each situation is obviously different and merits different approaches.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Your friend not being aggressive enough getting the nose down to maintain flying speed. Especially if your ar simulating a short field takeoff at the same time,

Might want to let the tower know beforehand what you plan so they don’t get too excited.
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Actually, he needs tower"s approval for the subsequent landing.
 
MuseChaser said:
We've had very different experiences and training. On my PP checkride, the DPE pulled the power on my first takeoff. ...
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On my checkride, my DPE (Arnold E. Ebneter--look him up) did just the opposite.
Arnold called for turns around a point. I started looking for a good landmark. Arnold pulled power. We just lost the engine. I trimmed for best glide angle, which in a C152 is just spinning the trim wheel back until it stops, then started looking around for a place to put her down. I choose a spot, but needed to drop some altitude, so I did some S-turns, while checking fuel, ignition, etc. We still had a lot of altitude to lose, so I started a forward slip. While I was looking outside, Arnold terminated the maneuver by applying full power. We were trimmed for best glide angle, that is, the trim tab was pegged at nose up. The engine roared to life and the nose leapt up violently. The windscreen filled with blue sky! The yoke slammed back against my hand and I jammed it forward counteracting the sudden pitchup. Everything on the dash, as well as our butts popped up in the air then slammed back down as we leveled off. I said something intelligent like, "Whoa!" Neither of us made any comment other than that. It was Arnold's doing, and to this day I wonder whether it was part of the test to see how I reacted to something unexpected and off-the-wall. If so, I guess I passed.
 
Haven’t flown a traveler but in a cheetah or tiger if you are aggressive in the flair with no flaps you can skag the tail.
 
1RTK1 said:
Haven’t flown a traveler but in a cheetah or tiger if you are aggressive in the flair with no flaps you can skag the tail.
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I still cringe when I recall the first "soft-field takeoff" on a paved runway I did years ago w/ my CFI during my initial training. Didn't move the yoke fast enough or at the right time, and let that rental sucker rotate the tail onto the pavement. No damage done, but BOY did I feel like an idiot. That was in a 172.
 
1RTK1 said:
Haven’t flown a traveler but in a cheetah or tiger if you are aggressive in the flair with no flaps you can skag the tail.
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I took some friends out for some fun flying in a Tiger and the one in the back seat suddenly got sick and he announced that he was going to throw up.

Luckily, we were near an old, closed airport and I got it on the ground in barely a minute. I made a short field landing and already had the canopy open for him. I was stopped in a super short ground roll, but I did hit the tail on the landing...

The C-150 we trained in all had steel straps curved over the tail tiedown rings so that we could purposely drag the tail on soft field takeoffs. I remember scraping it real good on my PPL checkride!
 
IK04 said:
The C-150 we trained in all had steel straps curved over the tail tiedown rings so that we could purposely drag the tail on soft field takeoffs. I remember scraping it real good on my PPL checkride!
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That’s not really what it’s there for. It does protect the tie down ring, but you can still impart forced into the structure of the tail dragging it, that the tail was never intended nor designed to have put into it.

Look at where one of those guards is attached sometime.
 
IK04 said:
We added doublers to the mount hole inside and out.
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Which will keep it from ripping out but doesn’t make the rest of the tail capable of taking the shock load in an upward direction. It’s simply not designed for that. The little guard is for occasional mistakes not repeated abuse.
 
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