I'm getting closed out because I'm an "Old Timer"

[spiderweb]

Well, shoot! The flight school I often rent from seems to be pushing us "old-timers" out. (By "old timer" I mean those of us who trained on traditional round dials.) They used to have two C182Ss with traditional instrumentation. First one went, and now without fanfare, it seems the other one is gone! They were only six years old, or so, too. Also, one of the Seminoles is no longer listed for rent.

This really sucks, because they now only have one C182T, and it is glass. Yes, I do need the C182 because I often fly with four persons. Yes, the glass is "cool" but what is not cool is having to pay for eight hours of ground and eight hours of air just to fly the same plane. A lot of the C172s are going, too. I do NOT WANT TO SPEND MONEY on something I don't need! The "old" C182s were just fine--great, friendly birds with plenty of anything you needed.

So now I am left either with flying a C172 (fine for when I'm alone), or the Trinidad. I do love the TB-20, but sheesh--at $195 per hour, she's the most expensive bird of the fleet.

WE ARE GETTING PUSHED OUT!!!! I ONLY GOT MY IR LAST YEAR FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!

OK, I need to chill now.

 

[ScottM]

Ben it seems to me that few FBO/Schools want renters they want student renters. YOu are no longer in their customer base, which in the long term for that FBO is sad.

OK, I need to chill now.

Chill a little. Then think seriously about buying your own plane.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Well, shoot! The flight school I often rent from seems to be pushing us "old-timers" out. (By "old timer" I mean those of us who trained on traditional round dials.) They used to have two C182Ss with traditional instrumentation. First one went, and now without fanfare, it seems the other one is gone! They were only six years old, or so, too. Also, one of the Seminoles is no longer listed for rent.

This really sucks, because they now only have one C182T, and it is glass. Yes, I do need the C182 because I often fly with four persons. Yes, the glass is "cool" but what is not cool is having to pay for eight hours of ground and eight hours of air just to fly the same plane. A lot of the C172s are going, too. I do NOT WANT TO SPEND MONEY on something I don't need! The "old" C182s were just fine--great, friendly birds with plenty of anything you needed.

So now I am left either with flying a C172 (fine for when I'm alone), or the Trinidad. I do love the TB-20, but sheesh--at $195 per hour, she's the most expensive bird of the fleet.

WE ARE GETTING PUSHED OUT!!!! I ONLY GOT MY IR LAST YEAR FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!

OK, I need to chill now.

Just get your 10 hour commercial training that you've been putting off in that glass panel bird. They'll get their 8 hours logged and you'll get both tasks done for the price of one. BTW 8/8 hours seems like at least twice as much as is really needed... WT_?

 

[ScottM]

Just get your 10 hour commercial training that you've been putting off in that glass panel bird. They'll get their 8 hours logged and you'll get both tasks done for the price of one. BTW 8/8 hours seems like at least twice as much as is really needed... WT_?

He still needs the complex for the commercial exam and some of the hours. C182T is not complex as it is fixed gear.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

He still needs the complex for the commercial exam and some of the hours. C182T is not complex as it is fixed gear.

Quite true, I thought he already had some RG time going, in any event mixing the two planes instead of doing the whole commercial rating in an RG is an option.

 

[spiderweb]

Quite true, I thought he already had some RG time going, in any event mixing the two planes instead of doing the whole commercial rating in an RG is an option.

I do. I have about 50 hours retract. Grrrrrrrrr. If I ever do the comm, I would just do it in the TB-20. A nice, new glass panel doesn't make the C182 any faster. The TB-20 is a good 30 knots faster, and so much sexier.

But, ohhhhhhh--the price.

I am just waiting for my CFI to finally get the FG Saratoga or C206. He says he'll only rent to former students (he doesn't need it for the income), and only charge operating costs. He's thinking $150. Wow, that'd be nice.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I do. I have about 50 hours retract. Grrrrrrrrr. If I ever do the comm, I would just do it in the TB-20. A nice, new glass panel doesn't make the C182 any faster. The TB-20 is a good 30 knots faster, and so much sexier.

But, ohhhhhhh--the price.

I am just waiting for my CFI to finally get the FG Saratoga or C206. He says he'll only rent to former students (he doesn't need it for the income), and only charge operating costs. He's thinking $150. Wow, that'd be nice.

I've never been too impressed with the knots/dollar in any of the RGs. A half hour to show your 3 RG LDGs and emergency gear down is all you need to show the examiner for the split plane method as I recall. The rest of the time in the glass 182 and you've got your comm rating and the glass write off.

You've got some solid hours for insurance purposes now and it also sounds like you do a fair amount of business with that FBO so sometimes if you show them, "get resonable or much less business for you from me -nothing personal..." it more often than not will work for you.

 

[deafsound]

I heard from a CFI friend of mine you can buy the G-1000 sim software for 5 bucks. Might save you some ground time.
You'll have to find it tho.

 

[Henning]

Well, shoot! The flight school I often rent from seems to be pushing us "old-timers" out. (By "old timer" I mean those of us who trained on traditional round dials.) They used to have two C182Ss with traditional instrumentation. First one went, and now without fanfare, it seems the other one is gone! They were only six years old, or so, too. Also, one of the Seminoles is no longer listed for rent.

This really sucks, because they now only have one C182T, and it is glass. Yes, I do need the C182 because I often fly with four persons. Yes, the glass is "cool" but what is not cool is having to pay for eight hours of ground and eight hours of air just to fly the same plane. A lot of the C172s are going, too. I do NOT WANT TO SPEND MONEY on something I don't need! The "old" C182s were just fine--great, friendly birds with plenty of anything you needed.

So now I am left either with flying a C172 (fine for when I'm alone), or the Trinidad. I do love the TB-20, but sheesh--at $195 per hour, she's the most expensive bird of the fleet.

WE ARE GETTING PUSHED OUT!!!! I ONLY GOT MY IR LAST YEAR FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!

OK, I need to chill now.

Well, it looks like it's time for you and the rest of the old timers to get together and get an airplane or two and deny the FBO your business.

 

[infotango]

Ben it seems to me that few FBO/Schools want renters they want student renters. YOu are no longer in their customer base, which in the long term for that FBO is sad.

I've gotten that feeling too. Being a renter isn't too great.

Ben, are you renting at FDK?

 

[555Juliet]

I feel your pain, Ben. I was planning on getting current in the 182 again myself, but I guess that's not an option. I am *not* getting checked out in the glass-cockpit 182, sorry. It took me enough $$$$ to get my complex checkout, thankyouverymuch.

I think the solution is for you to purchase a steam-gauge 182 and put it on leaseback, Ben. Whaddya say? : )

Seriously, I overheard the counter person tell a prospective student pilot that they "strongly encourage" new students to learn in the Garmin G1000-equipped 172s, because they are planning to phase out steam-gauge airplanes. Not sure what I'll do if that happens. Go to Carroll County? : (

It's frustrating!

 

[wesleyj]

Just another tightening turn in the downhill spiral that currently engulfs and defines GA.

 

[grattonja]

I don't remember if your FBO is a Cessna Pilot Center or not, Ben? That seems to be the direction that CPC's are going. My FBO's newest 'hawk is a G1000. 50 plus pounds LESS usable load and it took a checkout to go fly it. Plus, it's 130 per hour, rather than 105 for the round gauges that I prefer anyway. And the noises that they are making indicate that other skyhawks they acquire will also have the G1000 system.

As Dr. Bruce is famous for saying, Sigh.

I think I will start a thread under training on the issue of starting new pilots in G1000/avidyne systems, and see what the consensus is.

Jim G

 

[Dart]

Just another tightening turn in the downhill spiral that currently engulfs and defines GA.

Is the glass half full or half empty? I've read scores of webboard rants about the antiquated fleet and ancient panels. Now we're gonna ***** about new equipment???

Seems like the FBO is indeed keeping up with the times. It hurts old time renters, I know, I are one! But, in the long run it is good for GA to modernize the fleet. And it helps provide good, used older birds for the resale market, and that helps keep used bird prices down.

I have a sailboat on lease back. In five years it's outta the fleet, too much maintenance and who wants to be a member in an old boat. So, in five years I get to move up too, or keep the ol' girl. Wanna buy a very well maintained 36 footer with all the toys in 2011?

 

[Len Lanetti]

Well, it looks like it's time for you and the rest of the old timers to get together and get an airplane or two and deny the FBO your business.

Ben,

In Trade a Plane there are currently listed several Cessna 205s...big like 206 but older and less expensive to acquire. Of the planes listed their asking prices break down as follows:

Under $90K - 1
Under $80K - 3
Under $70K - 1
Under $60K - 1

Of those listed many had updated avionics and have had their panel updated to the standard T configuration. The lower priced examples tended to have higher time engines. A 3 or 4 way partnership might make one of these aircraft attractive to you from a cost perspective.

With the cost of fuel as high as it is I think there might be a number of folks reconsidering the costs of operating big engined, six seat aircraft versus their needs and it might be a good time to buy.

Len

 

[astanley]

The 205 is one sweet plane. So much space you won't know what to do with it, flies stable, although landing it is like trying to land a washing machine (according to the salty ex-FBO owner, who had about 40k hours)

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The 205 is one sweet plane. So much space you won't know what to do with it, flies stable, although landing it is like trying to land a washing machine (according to the salty ex-FBO owner, who had about 40k hours)

Cheers,

-Andrew

I don't know nothing about landing washing machines, but I do know the 205 will go into all kinds of really short, narrow strips at full gross virtually like a smaller Skylane or C185, in other words, no problem. We used one for a lot of filming for my website, MountainFlyingVideos.com. and it was my fav. and it was cheap.

 

[AdamZ]

Ben I feel your pain but I gotta go with Dart on this one. Progress is progress. Imagine the pilots who first had to learn how to use a VOR. There are some guys that are really griping that they don't get to use DF steer anymore. Heck 15 years ago the VCR was scary to my folks. I guess ya either have to move on or buy your own.

 

[ScottM]

Heck 15 years ago the VCR was scary to my folks.

Still scary to mine and they will not use the DVD at all. And don't get me started about computers with them!!

 

[Len Lanetti]

Is the glass half full or half empty? I've read scores of webboard rants about the antiquated fleet and ancient panels. Now we're gonna ***** about new equipment???

Seems like the FBO is indeed keeping up with the times. It hurts old time renters, I know, I are one! But, in the long run it is good for GA to modernize the fleet. And it helps provide good, used older birds for the resale market, and that helps keep used bird prices down.

Is it good for GA...not so sure. The biggest problem facing GA is reduced number of pilots. Will the attractiveness of wiz bang panel off set the extra cost? Which attracts and retains the most new pilots lower cost or fancy electronics? If it is fancy electronics why is the inexpensive LSA supposed to be the salvation of GA?

Len

 

[gprellwitz]

I heard from a CFI friend of mine you can buy the G-1000 sim software for 5 bucks. Might save you some ground time.
You'll have to find it tho.

Right on the Garmin site: http://shop.garmin.com/accessory.jsp?sku=010-10596-01
BUT NOTE THE HARDWARE REQUIREMENTS.

1.8 ghz Processor, 256 MB RAM, Windows 2000 or XP, 200mb of free hard disk space, CD-ROM drive, Screen resolution: 1280 pixels wide x 1024 pixels high, Four-axis joystick with throttle/power and rudder control (optional), Microsoft DirectX 9.0b (included on this CD-ROM), Video Card: DirectX-capable card with a minimum of 64 MB of memory and video card drivers that support DirectX 9.0b, Note: Intel integrated graphics controllers are NOT supported.

This means it won't work on most laptops. Also won't work on a Mac (emulation maybe?) or Linux, but that's another story.

 

[Ghery]

Still scary to mine and they will not use the DVD at all. And don't get me started about computers with them!!

They need to get with it. My dad, who turned 80 today, uses his computer all the time. Enough that my mom, who refuses to learn, complains about it. His problem is that he's running out of capability and needs a new machine. Faster, better display, all that stuff. Sounds like his grandson. Never met a machine that was fast enough, had enough memory or a large enough hard drive.

 

[jesse]

Also won't work on a Mac (emulation maybe?) or Linux, but that's another story.

Probably will work fine on a Mac now that bootcamp is a reality.

 

[AdamZ]

Ben this might be bishert as my tribe says or kismet to the rest of you. Just posted today.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=115267#post115267

 

[Dart]

Is it good for GA...not so sure. The biggest problem facing GA is reduced number of pilots. Will the attractiveness of wiz bang panel off set the extra cost?

I hear you on the reduced pilot numbers thing but, this never was (nor ever will be) a cheap, casual hobby. New technology is unavoidable. Remember all those nifty LORANs? What student is going to want to learn in a plane with instruments for system that no longer exists or at best is being slowly eliminated? Students with professional aspirations especially will need all the glass, its where they are going.

Which attracts and retains the most new pilots lower cost or fancy electronics?

Lower cost to a point, no argument. But ponder this, how many recreational certs are out there compared to PP's. At some point all cost savings result in reduced utility.

If it is fancy electronics why is the inexpensive LSA supposed to be the salvation of GA?
Len

Well I don't see the LSA "saving" GA. I think it will certainly boost airplane sales to hobby pilots who want new tech at low prices. In ecological terms, LSA is a new niche, not a superior competitor. Not when you can purchase very capable traditional, IFR capable, used piston singles for about the cost of new LSA (yes, I know maintenance costs will be higher).

I used to believe it was the cost that made flying so difficult, but I'm coming around to see that it is the triple whammy of government regulatory "hassle factor" , low utility and high cost that turns folks off. Like the old engineering joke "Fast, cheap, reliable. Pick any two." GA has three tough strikes right from the git go. I think folks would be willing to "pick any two" but all three is a major deal killer.

I think the interest rate in lessons is very high and I think the recent "learn to fly" campaign demonstrated that. However, the completion rate from "discovery flight" to "pilot certificate" is abysmal.

When new planes aren't being sold (and training schools are by far the single largest source of entry level aircraft), used planes become rare and very expensive. For example, you purchased a very capable aircraft at a very reasonable price. Why, because there was a viable used market out there, opening up opportunities for folks like you to buy the older planes for significantly less than the new cost. That is why I think modernizing the fleet of trainers, is ultimately good for GA.

 

[spiderweb]

I've never been too impressed with the knots/dollar in any of the RGs. A half hour to show your 3 RG LDGs and emergency gear down is all you need to show the examiner for the split plane method as I recall. The rest of the time in the glass 182 and you've got your comm rating and the glass write off.

You've got some solid hours for insurance purposes now and it also sounds like you do a fair amount of business with that FBO so sometimes if you show them, "get resonable or much less business for you from me -nothing personal..." it more often than not will work for you.

I've told them, but they act like there's nothing they can do.. Sigh.

 

[spiderweb]

I've gotten that feeling too. Being a renter isn't too great.

Ben, are you renting at FDK?

I don't want to say where, but I can say the only two places I've been renting from are my teacher (who has the Zlin and C150), and another local, big flight school. You might find it in my previous posts. . . .

 

[spiderweb]

I feel your pain, Ben. I was planning on getting current in the 182 again myself, but I guess that's not an option. I am *not* getting checked out in the glass-cockpit 182, sorry. It took me enough $$$$ to get my complex checkout, thankyouverymuch.

I think the solution is for you to purchase a steam-gauge 182 and put it on leaseback, Ben. Whaddya say? : )

Seriously, I overheard the counter person tell a prospective student pilot that they "strongly encourage" new students to learn in the Garmin G1000-equipped 172s, because they are planning to phase out steam-gauge airplanes. Not sure what I'll do if that happens. Go to Carroll County? : (

It's frustrating!

ARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGG. They said that?

Well, I don't think they'll phase out the Trinidad any time soon. The only hopeful news I've heard recently from there is that they *might* get a '98 or '99 Saratoga HP. That's nice, but this is what my teacher is thinking of getting (except probably fixed gear), and they thought they might charge about $225 while my teacher will probably charge $150.

I think I'm just going to maintain my currency in the TB-20 and C172s for as long as they have them. Shame--I really like this flight school, too.

 

[spiderweb]

Is the glass half full or half empty? I've read scores of webboard rants about the antiquated fleet and ancient panels. Now we're gonna ***** about new equipment???

Seems like the FBO is indeed keeping up with the times. It hurts old time renters, I know, I are one! But, in the long run it is good for GA to modernize the fleet. And it helps provide good, used older birds for the resale market, and that helps keep used bird prices down.

. . .

Oh, I am not putting down the glass. Far from it; I think the glass is wonderful, and would love to fly it. What I can't stand is that now my *only* option if I want to rent a C182 is to spend 8 ground and 8 in the air for the checkout, and then I have to pay $175 FOR THE SAME PLANE. There is no alternative. The "old" C182S was only $150 per hour, and I rented it for the useful load and comfort.

 

[tonycondon]

182? "only" 150? ugh. Ben,
The only answer is to move out here to the midwest were prices are *relatively* reasonable. My FBO rents a 182RG through from fall to spring for 115/hr. Steam gauge 172s, basic IFR, one with autopilot, are 85. Cheaper flying is to be had through clubs in the area.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I understand progress; don't understand eight hours times two.

Ben, as long as you rent, you will be subject to stuff like this--period.

If you already have Garmin proficiency, you should be about half way there. There should be some test like anything else. No sign off means all this school is nutso. You should be able to do most of the ground on your own and take a test for Pete's sake. As for proficiency in the air; same thing. If you know it, few hours maybe. If you have to be spoon fed, eight might not be enough.

So much for gearing things to the pilot's individual abilities.

Best,

Dave

 

[jesse]

I'd be awful ****ed if my FBO decided to buy a bunch of glass planes and required me to get eight hours of dual to fly it.

I fly VFR. I don't need anything on the instrument panel anyways. If you can't fly a plane 'cuz of not being able to understand something on the panel. You shouldn't be flying a plane. The panel is so over rated.

IFR is a whole different deal. But I still don't imagine it would take that much dual.

 

[spiderweb]

182? "only" 150? ugh. Ben,
The only answer is to move out here to the midwest were prices are *relatively* reasonable. My FBO rents a 182RG through from fall to spring for 115/hr. Steam gauge 172s, basic IFR, one with autopilot, are 85. Cheaper flying is to be had through clubs in the area.

For cheap flying, my CFI rents his C150 for $65 per hour. It is fun, but I usually need more load carrying ability.

 

[spiderweb]

I'd be awful ****ed if my FBO decided to buy a bunch of glass planes and required me to get eight hours of dual to fly it.

I fly VFR. I don't need anything on the instrument panel anyways. If you can't fly a plane 'cuz of not being able to understand something on the panel. You shouldn't be flying a plane. The panel is so over rated.

IFR is a whole different deal. But I still don't imagine it would take that much dual.

I basically agree. I think that it probably would take about 8 hours of ground, but like Dave says, I could probably cover a lot of that in self-study. That is the insurance requirement, as I understand it, though.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I heard from a CFI friend of mine you can buy the G-1000 sim software for 5 bucks. Might save you some ground time.
You'll have to find it tho.

Bottom of this page: pick your plane.

http://www.garmin.com/products/g1000/

 

[Gerhardt]

I'm with Jesse on this. I'm VFR and fly for fun and occasionally for utility if I need to get somewhere a little faster than by ground. The 150 and Warrior w/steam gauges do what I want them to do and I'd rather not pay extra for glitz and glamour that I don't need.

Someone before me suggested partnering on a plane w/ some of the other old-timers. An excellent idea, and if you fly much at all you'll find it's cheaper and more convenient.

 

[infotango]

I'd be awful ****ed if my FBO decided to buy a bunch of glass planes and required me to get eight hours of dual to fly it.

I fly VFR. I don't need anything on the instrument panel anyways. If you can't fly a plane 'cuz of not being able to understand something on the panel. You shouldn't be flying a plane. The panel is so over rated.

IFR is a whole different deal. But I still don't imagine it would take that much dual.

I would be too, Jesse.

But you have to understand we are the last of our types. Guys like us are a dying breed at airports. Most people our age don't learn how to fly unless they are planning on going into flying as a career, and not too many people learn how to fly if they aren't sitting on a ton of money.

Pretty soon the only people flying will be the Uber rich and those who only want to sit right seat in a kero burner.

I wish my FBO had a bunch of old Aeronca's or Taylorcrafts for rent at 60/hr. Sigh.

 

[Ghery]

For cheap flying, my CFI rents his C150 for $65 per hour. It is fun, but I usually need more load carrying ability.

For cheap flying our club's C-172H goes for $48/hr (wet). I fly the 182 or Arrow for $81/hr (wet). You all are making our club look better and better.

Now if we could just get our C-172N back from the shop. A member violated the rules against landing on any other than a paved runway in July and had a prop strike. We're hoping to have it back later this month. That's the plane I want to use for my IR instruction.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Ben,

Wow, that sucks. I kind of wonder how many people were renting the first glass 182? I doubt it was that high. That's also a bit pricey even for a new G1000 182. I rented one in Tampa (not a low-cost area by any means) for $160/hr, and the difference in price I saw at another place between the glass and a loaded steam-gauge 172 was only $15/hr.

I might be one of the people who's guilty of making things like this happen, because I fly the glass whenever I get a chance. My club is all gauges (one of three planes has a 430, that's as high-tech as we get); the local FBO only has two planes with a GPS at all.

When I rented the G1000 182, I had 1.2 hours in a G1000 DA40 and a couple of un-logged approaches in a G1000 Frasca simulator; they only required a checkout which ended up as 1.1 in the air and basically nothing on the ground. (I had about 50 hours of 182 time in the previous year, plus the aforementioned G1000 time.) It was good, they got some bucks and I got another 6.5 hours of G1000 time. 8x8 seems excessive, especially if you're proficient with the Garmin 430/530 boxes. And I am really surprised they didn't leave one gauge bird on the line to give you the option!

If ya move out here, I know a club with a nice 182 for only $119/tach hour.

 

[grattonja]

. My FBO rents a 182RG through from fall to spring for 115/hr.


My FBO rents a 172RG for the exact same money. They don't even HAVE a 182.

You are right, your rental rates out there are nice. The G1000 172 that my FBO just acquired rents for 130. Granted, you get weather, but you aren't carrying as much or going as fast as a 182.

Jim G