I'm getting a Tesla in the morning!!!

[flyingcheesehead]

Next month I turn in my 3 year lease for my Ford Fusion Energi. I enjoyed the EV lifestyle but now that gas is back down I went to an SUV as I need the space and there's no real options with an EV SUV.

Au contraire. There are several, though they do still run on the pricy side in general.

The only pure-EV SUVs are still somewhat hard to get - Tesla Model X (expensive and has a production backlog), you might be able to find a used RAV4 Electric, etc... I don't think there's anything that's easy to get.

There are some plug-in hybrid SUVs too. My favorite is probably the Volvo XC90 T8 "Twin Engine" (I think they want Ted to buy one) with two motors and a turbocharged, supercharged four-banger. BMW X5 and Porsche Cayenne are also available as PHEVs.

I think my best MPG was 119.9 MPG, 1308 miles on 10.91 gallons. Not too shabby!

So far, I had a tank with over 2400 miles, 192 mpg.

I'm at 98.0 mpg for the life of the car as of today.

 

[txflyer]

The big issue with the electrics is range and recharge. I just drove (ugh) from Wisconsin Rapids back home to Grand Rapids on one tank in my C5, and still had 100 miles until empty. And it only took me 3 minutes to fill up.

How far can you go on a 3 minute charge?

Hammer meet nail.

It's fill up time at the pump when you're traveling that shocks electric dreams wide awake. :wink2:

Now if money is just flowing like a river, then do what you want, but for the money, a vette or Hellcat would retain some value and go faster and farther. And you can buy a lot of gas for a Hellcat with the fifty thousand you'll save.

 

[dans2992]

Actually, a Tesla will be faster than the Vette.

If I'm going anywhere near 200 miles, I'm either flying my plane, or driving my other (gas powered) car anyhow.

 

[denverpilot]

Why not? The "gas" is free thanks to the Supercharger network, the car is comfortable, and you basically are going to stop about as often as you'd like anyway - At least, that's what I hear from owners, that by the time you need a charge, you also need a break so it works out quite well on road trips.

Unless the charger tops off the car in ten minutes flat, I'm done with my break, and moving on. I don't dawdle on road trips. Out of the vehicle long enough to pee and fend off DVT and I'm gone.

 

[JoseCuervo]

It's funny how people focus on the three Road trip the year they make. And how their charging may take 15 minutes. Instead of 12 minutes that it takes at a gas station.

And completely ignoring the fact, that the other 99% of the year, they will never go near a gas station. And save hours of their year.

My friend that owns one, absolutely loves it. She never has to get dirty at a gas station again. She never has to hunt sketchy neighborhoods to find somewhere to fill up.

It truly makes her life easier.
Plus, she doesn't waste time getting oil changes.

Five extra minutes, on the occasional road trip is not a big hindrance. .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SCCutler]

Why not? The "gas" is free thanks to the Supercharger network, the car is comfortable, and you basically are going to stop about as often as you'd like anyway - At least, that's what I hear from owners, that by the time you need a charge, you also need a break so it works out quite well on road trips.

As the network is filled-in, the main objection to use of the Tesla as a road car is, if not being eliminated, being much reduced.

Not to mention that every one of the (what is it, four now I think?) people who has had a Tesla fire, has bought another Tesla. They're that good.

Every Tesla owner with whom I have spoken seems to love the car, and from "looking and touching," I understand completely. They are beautiful, sleek, faster than stink and fun to drive. If they weren't so staggeringly costly, I would have one now.

 

[Dav8or]

And the thing about the road trip is, you can always rent a car, or keep a second car that is gas powered. Many of the nay sayers always seem to think that if you buy an EV, it has to be the only vehicle you have, or that renting a car is just not an option. I don't have an EV at all and our family currently has four vehicles we use. Unless you live in the city and parking's a *****, keeping different cars for different tasks really isn't than big of a deal.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

As the network is filled-in, the main objection to use of the Tesla as a road car is, if not being eliminated, being much reduced.

Yup... There are other "Level 3" DC fast chargers starting to go in as well, BMW and Nissan have funded a (smaller) network. The Teslas can use these other chargers, other cars can't use the Tesla network. Since Tesla is miles ahead (so to speak) of anyone else in infrastructure development, they've got a leg up on the rest in terms of moving people to "pure" (B)EV's.

I'm finding that I'm wishing for a longer electric range and DCFC/L3 charging capability. Even though I *can* just let the gas engine kick in, I really enjoy electric driving. That makes the BMW i3 look a lot better to me; I'm hoping that in late 2017/early 2018 when my current leases are up that the Model 3 is out and that used Model S prices have dropped into the reasonable range. I might get one of each.

Every Tesla owner with whom I have spoken seems to love the car, and from "looking and touching," I understand completely. They are beautiful, sleek, faster than stink and fun to drive. If they weren't so staggeringly costly, I would have one now.

Same here - I've gotten a ride in a P85D and I got to drive an 85D. Amazing machines. I'm forever spoiled!

 

[JoseCuervo]

Yup...







Same here - I've gotten a ride in a P85D and I got to drive an 85D. Amazing machines. I'm forever spoiled!

Same here.

Drove a P85D, never experienced a more amazing sense of acceleration.

And the lack of sound and engine noise makes high speed driving quite relaxing.

On my list of cars to own.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Huh... The guy who does The Oatmeal has one and did a comic about it:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s

Also, I've read that there are over 170,000 gas cars that burn each year. Heck, my wife saw one the other day. So, the odds of a fire with the Tesla are way LOWER.

 

[Dav8or]

Yup... There are other "Level 3" DC fast chargers starting to go in as well, BMW and Nissan have funded a (smaller) network. The Teslas can use these other chargers, other cars can't use the Tesla network. Since Tesla is miles ahead (so to speak) of anyone else in infrastructure development, they've got a leg up on the rest in terms of moving people to "pure" (B)EV's.

I'm finding that I'm wishing for a longer electric range and DCFC/L3 charging capability. Even though I *can* just let the gas engine kick in, I really enjoy electric driving. That makes the BMW i3 look a lot better to me; I'm hoping that in late 2017/early 2018 when my current leases are up that the Model 3 is out and that used Model S prices have dropped into the reasonable range. I might get one of each.

Same here - I've gotten a ride in a P85D and I got to drive an 85D. Amazing machines. I'm forever spoiled!

There is also the upcoming Chevy Bolt. Supposed to hit the showrooms late this year as a 2017, all electric, 200 miles range + and under $30,000 with tax incentives. Unlike the Model 3, it is in the here and now. Pre production units are being driven now and people are reporting easily getting 200 miles range. It makes the Leaf, the i3 and all the various compliance cars look down right silly.

It's not that pretty, but it's also not a total geek mobile. It's no rocket ship like the Model S (0-60 in 7 seconds) but it's totally sufficient and did I mention, under $30,000? Anyhow, check it out-

 

[dans2992]

Why did they make it so damn ugly?

 

[SoonerAviator]

There is also the upcoming Chevy Bolt. Supposed to hit the showrooms late this year as a 2017, all electric, 200 miles range + and under $30,000 with tax incentives. Unlike the Model 3, it is in the here and now. Pre production units are being driven now and people are reporting easily getting 200 miles range. It makes the Leaf, the i3 and all the various compliance cars look down right silly.

It's not that pretty, but it's also not a total geek mobile. It's no rocket ship like the Model S (0-60 in 7 seconds) but it's totally sufficient and did I mention, under $30,000? Anyhow, check it out-

Sorry, a Honda Civic looks better than the Bolt and is $10K less. That buys a lot of fuel, like 8-9 years worth including normal oil changes and such. I bet the fit and finish on the Civic is better, too, in addition to having more interior space. The Bolt is flat out ugly to boot. Not Aztek ugly, but definitely not going to evoke any feelings of admiration from onlookers. Unless you plan on driving the Bolt for 10 years, I doubt most will come out ahead financially unless gas prices escalate quite a bit.

I just don't understand why economy cars and EV's are intentionally ugly. (Tesla notwithstanding) The Prius, Leaf, Fit, Insight, Bolt, etc are just so damn homely. The Fusion Hybrid and some others are the ones who got it right by not making the car look ridiculous just because it was an efficiency model.

If there were a Tesla P85D that sold for $40K, I'd probably own one, even if it were only a model with a 5 sec 0-60 instead of sub-4's.

 

[dans2992]

I am trying to hold out for the model 3.

 

[Dav8or]

Why did they make it so damn ugly?

I don't know if you have noticed, but all car manufacturers do that these days. If a car is small, or intended for ordinary transportation, it has to be ugly. It's some secret rule of the automotive industry and it has been going on since about 1972. It comes down to, can you stomach the way it looks these days.

I personally think the Bolt looks far superior to it's competitors though with the Nissan Leaf possibly being the ugliest car ever put together. It is the direct result of what happens when you let French people take over your car company!

 

[Dav8or]

Sorry, a Honda Civic looks better than the Bolt and is $10K less. That buys a lot of fuel, like 8-9 years worth including normal oil changes and such. I bet the fit and finish on the Civic is better, too, in addition to having more interior space. The Bolt is flat out ugly to boot. Not Aztek ugly, but definitely not going to evoke any feelings of admiration from onlookers. Unless you plan on driving the Bolt for 10 years, I doubt most will come out ahead financially unless gas prices escalate quite a bit.

I just don't understand why economy cars and EV's are intentionally ugly. (Tesla notwithstanding) The Prius, Leaf, Fit, Insight, Bolt, etc are just so damn homely. The Fusion Hybrid and some others are the ones who got it right by not making the car look ridiculous just because it was an efficiency model.

If there were a Tesla P85D that sold for $40K, I'd probably own one, even if it were only a model with a 5 sec 0-60 instead of sub-4's.

At this point in time, you don't buy an EV to save money, particularly with gas prices so low. If it's just about cheap transportation, you do as I have done. I recently bought a 2001 Ford Focus Wagon with 58,000 original miles on it in excellent condition for $3,000 to commute with. Older cars in well kept condition is how you save money in transportation.

You have to remember that in the case of small cars, there are proportion issues that can be tricky to deal with in regards to styling and design. It's relatively easy to make a big sedan like the Model S look good because the proportions are what we have been trained to accept as beauty in a car. Going to a much smaller package like the Bolt is much, much trickier. This is not to let GM off the hook, they could have done better and they could have done worse.

 

[Dav8or]

I am trying to hold out for the model 3.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with. General Motors has thrown down the gauntlet in beating them to a 200 mile range, sub $30,000 EV. Elon Musk is a very competitive guy. What they come up with in response may well be fantastic.

We shall see. However I question their ability to actually make moderately priced vehicles. It will require many compromises that I'm not sure Mr. Musk will be willing to make. Their direction at the moment is quite the contrary.

 

[deonb]

Why did they make it so damn ugly?

The reason behind that is dealer appeasement. Dealers don't particularly want to sell EV's because the maintenance is much lower than GAS vehicles - and maintenance is where dealers make most of their money. They also have to spend a lot more time selling an EV than a GAS car (generally 3 to 4 times as much).

Dealers don't want someone walking into a door looking for e.g. a Buick Regal, and end up driving off with a Bolt instead. Much worse is then if it's an existing (prior) customer of the dealership switching to an EV.

However, because of the shape of the Bolt/Leaf/i3 whatever, it's not a comparison-car. Instead, it's what's called a 'conquest' vehicle.

There have been quotes by Nissan and BMW executives saying that they didn't expect their current customers to buy the cars, and once the cars were out for a while, bragging about the extremely high conquest rate (which I think is over 80% for both cars; incredible numbers). It is clear they did something to make sure their existing customers would stick with their GAS car offerings. That makes the dealers happy, because the extra work selling an EV gets them a new customer (a valuable commodity in a mature, saturated market), rather than just being an expensive cannibalization of an existing GAS vehicle customer.

Tesla on the other hand doesn't have other vehicles (or dealers for that matter), so they don't mind shipping a good-looking car.

 

[Fredbob711]

It will be interesting to see what they come up with. General Motors has thrown down the gauntlet in beating them to a 200 mile range, sub $30,000 EV. Elon Musk is a very competitive guy. What they come up with in response may well be fantastic.

We shall see. However I question their ability to actually make moderately priced vehicles. It will require many compromises that I'm not sure Mr. Musk will be willing to make. Their direction at the moment is quite the contrary.

I'm trying to hold as well and am very interested in what they come up with. Last update I can find says they're planning on unveiling in March and that Musk is targeting a drag coefficient below .2 (Model S is .24 and for comparison the Camry is .28 from what I can find online)

 

[SoonerAviator]

At this point in time, you don't buy an EV to save money, particularly with gas prices so low.

Isn't that supposed to be the main selling-point of EV's? Save money versus buying fuel and maintenance? Even if the payback were in 5-6 years when the average vehicle loan is payed off, you'd be money ahead after that. I understand them not being sold (like the Volt/Tesla S/P85/X) to be money-savers, but when introducing the "car for the masses", I would think money savings would be a large consideration. On the bright side, there should be some good values on the used market after 4-5 years when the values have taken their hits.

Well, despite GM "beating" Tesla to market with the $30K auto, I doubt Elon Musk is losing any sleep over it. They only beat Tesla to the market, because Tesla wasn't focusing on the $30K-market. They got buy in from the high-end sports car, sports sedan, and luxury-sport SUV markets before they even started working on the low-end. I bet the quality and fit/finish on the Tesla are worlds better than the Bolt, even at the same price point.

I feel like Tesla Model 3 will keep the same vehicle architecture, but simply reduce the size of the vehicle while offering a lower-end motor/battery package in order to get low-to-mid 200 mile range. The concept vehicles for the 3 make it look worlds better than the Bolt. I'd pay $30-35K for the Model 3 concept as long as the rest of the car were equally well-designed. I wouldn't pay $20K for the Bolt, simply due to appearance and preexisting knowledge of what GM builds at that price point.

 

[SoonerAviator]

. Going to a much smaller package like the Bolt is much, much trickier. This is not to let GM off the hook, they could have done better and they could have done worse.

About the only thing that could have been worse is if they slapped the Pontiac Aztek body on it.

 

[dans2992]

The reason behind that is dealer appeasement. Dealers don't particularly want to sell EV's because the maintenance is much lower than GAS vehicles - and maintenance is where dealers make most of their money. They also have to spend a lot more time selling an EV than a GAS car (generally 3 to 4 times as much).

Dealers don't want someone walking into a door looking for e.g. a Buick Regal, and end up driving off with a Bolt instead. Much worse is then if it's an existing (prior) customer of the dealership switching to an EV.

However, because of the shape of the Bolt/Leaf/i3 whatever, it's not a comparison-car. Instead, it's what's called a 'conquest' vehicle.

There have been quotes by Nissan and BMW executives saying that they didn't expect their current customers to buy the cars, and once the cars were out for a while, bragging about the extremely high conquest rate (which I think is over 80% for both cars; incredible numbers). It is clear they did something to make sure their existing customers would stick with their GAS car offerings. That makes the dealers happy, because the extra work selling an EV gets them a new customer (a valuable commodity in a mature, saturated market), rather than just being an expensive cannibalization of an existing GAS vehicle customer.

Tesla on the other hand doesn't have other vehicles (or dealers for that matter), so they don't mind shipping a good-looking car.

Interesting. Given all of this, I'd say the government needs to encourage more of Tesla's sales model (i.e. No dealers). Instead, states seem to be fighting it tooth and nail!

 

[FastEddieB]

About the only thing that could have been worse is if they slapped the Pontiac Aztek body on it.

They could always market an exclusive "Breaking Bad" edition!

 

[SCCutler]

Interesting. Given all of this, I'd say the government needs to encourage more of Tesla's sales model (i.e. No dealers). Instead, states seem to be fighting it tooth and nail!

States are not fighting it; dealers are fighting it, and not entirely without cause.

 

[denverpilot]

It's funny how people focus on the three Road trip the year they make. And how their charging may take 15 minutes. Instead of 12 minutes that it takes at a gas station.

It's funny how some people think others don't have 80 mile round trip commutes with no charger at one end, daily.

Well, despite GM "beating" Tesla to market with the $30K auto, I doubt Elon Musk is losing any sleep over it.

Not to mention that spending $30K on any massively depreciating asset is stupid. I've got three vehicles that run great, one that can tow my 12,000 lb trailer safely and relatively efficiently, and I don't have $30K in all THREE of them, combined.

Cash for clunkers indeed. Y'all keep buying those EVs. I love your cast offs. Cheap to insure. Cheap to operate. Cheap to fix.

And it's particularly nice when y'all deck them out with all the interior goodies and lose all that value on them in the first three years. LOL.

I loves me some cheap cars baby. Plop a good Bluetooth capable stereo in it for both HF and A2DP and I'll drive the POS into the ground and then find another one.

You guys keep buying the new stuff. You're awesome. Ha.

 

[dans2992]

I spend >12% of my waking hours in the vehicle. I don't want to waste money either, but I want the vehicle to be comfortable... I _wont_ spend $70k on the model S, but I would spend 30 K on the model three.

 

[denverpilot]

I spend >12% of my waking hours in the vehicle. I don't want to waste money either, but I want the vehicle to be comfortable... I _wont_ spend $70k on the model S, but I would spend 30 K on the model three.

Leather seats with butt warmers in two of mine. No lack of creature comforts!

 

[Dav8or]

The reason behind that is dealer appeasement. Dealers don't particularly want to sell EV's because the maintenance is much lower than GAS vehicles - and maintenance is where dealers make most of their money. They also have to spend a lot more time selling an EV than a GAS car (generally 3 to 4 times as much).

Dealers don't want someone walking into a door looking for e.g. a Buick Regal, and end up driving off with a Bolt instead. Much worse is then if it's an existing (prior) customer of the dealership switching to an EV.

However, because of the shape of the Bolt/Leaf/i3 whatever, it's not a comparison-car. Instead, it's what's called a 'conquest' vehicle.

There have been quotes by Nissan and BMW executives saying that they didn't expect their current customers to buy the cars, and once the cars were out for a while, bragging about the extremely high conquest rate (which I think is over 80% for both cars; incredible numbers). It is clear they did something to make sure their existing customers would stick with their GAS car offerings. That makes the dealers happy, because the extra work selling an EV gets them a new customer (a valuable commodity in a mature, saturated market), rather than just being an expensive cannibalization of an existing GAS vehicle customer.

Tesla on the other hand doesn't have other vehicles (or dealers for that matter), so they don't mind shipping a good-looking car.

Interesting theory I guess... don't think I buy it though.

 

[Fredbob711]

Interesting. Given all of this, I'd say the government needs to encourage more of Tesla's sales model (i.e. No dealers). Instead, states seem to be fighting it tooth and nail!

Musk didn't rule out the possibility of moving to a dealer model in the future, but his argument is mostly that Tesla is a boutique manufacturer and therefore setting up a dealership network just doesn't make sense right now.

Interesting theory I guess... don't think I buy it though.

It makes sense though. Dealers make some good money from ongoing maintenance of gas vehicles. The maintenance of electric vehicles is much, much easier simply due to the almost complete lack of moving parts.

 

[Dav8or]

The concept vehicles for the 3 make it look worlds better than the Bolt. I'd pay $30-35K for the Model 3 concept as long as the rest of the car were equally well-designed. I wouldn't pay $20K for the Bolt, simply due to appearance and preexisting knowledge of what GM builds at that price point.

OK. Hate Gm, that's alright I guess. However, you do need to realize that all the Model 3 "concepts" you have seen on the internet are third party renderings trying to guess what the Model 3 will look like. To my knowledge, Tesla has not yet released any official images of the Model 3, or shown any concepts anywhere.

With regards to price, Tesla has done very poorly. They have done much like the airplane business, promised a low price, then once production begins and cars are delivered, they sell some at the pre release low price to those that pre ordered, then cancel the low cost cars and focus on high end cars.

It is quite possible that the battery factory and the Model 3 may be a bridge too far for them. By no means is Tesla a "here to stay forever", or "blue chip company". They could very well still crash and burn.

I hope not. I too await the Model 3 unveiling and whatever it looks like. I hope they blow us away with dazzling tech, beautiful shapes and low price. I really do. However, I don't think Elon Musk knows how to do things for the masses, so I am skeptical.

 

[Dav8or]

It makes sense though. Dealers make some good money from ongoing maintenance of gas vehicles. The maintenance of electric vehicles is much, much easier simply due to the almost complete lack of moving parts.

The huge problem with this theory is that the manufacturers of gas cars continue to make gas cars super ugly too. There is little difference in styling. OK, the Nissan Leaf is an exceptional turd, but largely the rest follow the same design language of the rest of the product line.

The dealers have nothing to worry about at this time. As long as EVs still cost $10,000 plus over their gas counter parts, the typical buyer will choose the cheaper gas product no matter what the EV looks like. Eventually they will have to get over it as more and more people go electric. The dealers will have to renegotiate with the manufacturers about pricing and profits.

It will cost the consumer more in the end because as it is, car dealers really make nothing on new car sales. Repairs and maintenance is OK, but also pretty low profit as the manufacturers have set the prices on what they can charge for a repair. Used cars is where they make some money to get by.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I don't hate GM, I hate their low-end models, which is what the exterior/interior of the Bolt is. For $37K, I'm going to want something a lot nicer. I know Tesla hasn't released the official Model 3 design yet, but they hinted it would be sized more like the BMW 3-series and I can't see them making anything remotely as benign as the other current EV offerings given what they've already produced.

As far as dealer networks and repair margins go, I'm confident that people will still need new tires, brakes, suspension components and electrical gremlins fixed. Sure, it's not oil changes and spark plugs, but they'll still have work if they want it.

 

[deonb]

Interesting theory I guess... don't think I buy it though.

Additional support:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/01/science/electric-car-auto-dealers.html?_r=0

I bought a Leaf last month, and went through the dealer process myself. It really is as bad as the NYC article makes it sounds. Also owned a Model S for the last 3 years, so been keeping up on this topic quite a bit.

 

[Dav8or]

Additional support:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/01/science/electric-car-auto-dealers.html?_r=0

I bought a Leaf last month, and went through the dealer process myself. It really is as bad as the NYC article makes it sounds. Also owned a Model S for the last 3 years, so been keeping up on this topic quite a bit.

Oh, zero argument here from me on the topic of dealers. Most truly despise EVs. My uncle, who is pretty left wing, green, progressive and an engineer was really intrigued by the Nissan Leaf so he was one of those that put $100 down with Nissan to reserve one when they were to come out.

When he went to the dealer to actually drive the car and likely buy it, but the dealer talked him out of it. Basically told him it was terrible car and would be nothing but a headache. It sort of worked. On one hand my uncle never did buy a Leaf and got his $100 back. On the other hand, he didn't end up buying any new car and is still driving his old Honda Accord he has had for years.

I have heard very similar stories about Chevrolet dealers and the Volt when it first came out. Little by little EVs are becoming more and more mainstream and the dealers will have to find ways to cope. Here on the SF Bay Area, electric cars are very much "normal" now and all the dealers here are well versed in them now. It turns out, you can sell EVs and still sell gas cars and trucks. Who'd a thought?

The part I'm not buying is that the manufacturers are making their EVs ugly to make the dealers happy. I don't buy that theory at all.

 

[deonb]

The part I'm not buying is that the manufacturers are making their EVs ugly to make the dealers happy. I don't buy that theory at all.

I can see your point.

But the opposing theory would have to be that the designers are idiots, which I don't buy. Well, I can buy that from Nissan and GM maybe, but not BMW.

It may not be as sinister as: "Make the car as ugly as possible so as to not cannibalize our existing customers" rather than "Make the car substantially different from our current offerings so as to attract new types of customers".

But the end result is the same: The customer that buys an i3 isn't a customer that would have otherwise bought a 328i. And that would make the dealers at least a little happier about the whole thing.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

States are not fighting it; dealers are fighting it, and not entirely without cause.

If by "cause" you mean "fear that Tesla is going to eat their lunch" then you're right.

If by "cause" you mean "the government should be telling companies how their products can be sold" then I respectfully disagree.

So, what do you mean by cause?

This kind of reminds me of the movie industry fighting VCRs, the recording industry fighting the iTunes store, etc. There's a lot of history of shortsighted fears bringing companies down and a lot more where those fears led them to fight something that ultimately made them tons of money. I was thinking of that during the State of the Union speech the other night...

 

[Dav8or]

I can see your point.

But the opposing theory would have to be that the designers are idiots, which I don't buy. Well, I can buy that from Nissan and GM maybe, but not BMW.

It may not be as sinister as: "Make the car as ugly as possible so as to not cannibalize our existing customers" rather than "Make the car substantially different from our current offerings so as to attract new types of customers".

But the end result is the same: The customer that buys an i3 isn't a customer that would have otherwise bought a 328i. And that would make the dealers at least a little happier about the whole thing.

This is very close to the truth. I used to be very active on an electric car forum years back and I was surprised at how many EV enthusiasts want their electric car to look different than other cars and actually embrace the geek mobile look. Others wanted their EVs to look exactly like gas powered cars.

The car companies that have got on board with electric cars (besides Tesla) and committed to building something better than just a compliance car, have definitely chosen to go with the stand out from the other products tactic. You are correct in that the fact that it is electric gets people to cross shop to brands they would otherwise never consider. In this case, the less it looks like the kind of car they imagine the non desirable brand to be, the better.

In some cases like the BMW i3, the Chevy Bolt and Mitsubishi iMiev, the cars are somewhat constrained by packaging. They have the requirement to be as efficient as possible, still hit a price point and be moderately affordable and still have full functionality with seating and cargo. The wind tunnel doesn't lie and sometimes this ends up with less than stellar looks. Aerodynamics is more important on EVs than any gas car ever built.

Tesla gets around these limitations by tossing the low cost price point out the window. More money means more battery. More battery means more options. It will be very, very interesting to see the production Tesla Model 3. Unless there is a new super breakthrough in batteries, they will have to compromise to get to the price point and the performance they claim. Elon Musk does not strike me to be very good at compromise.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

There is also the upcoming Chevy Bolt. Supposed to hit the showrooms late this year as a 2017, all electric, 200 miles range + and under $30,000 with tax incentives. Unlike the Model 3, it is in the here and now. Pre production units are being driven now and people are reporting easily getting 200 miles range. It makes the Leaf, the i3 and all the various compliance cars look down right silly.

It's not that pretty, but it's also not a total geek mobile. It's no rocket ship like the Model S (0-60 in 7 seconds) but it's totally sufficient and did I mention, under $30,000?

True - But there's still some big problems with the Bolt vs. the Model 3, even if the cars end up being otherwise similar:

1) Lack of manufacturer/dealer support. EVs are an exceedingly tiny part of GM's business, and getting good service at the dealers and expecting automatic software upgrades from the factory as Tesla provides are both highly unlikely. Tesla, OTOH, has a lot more to lose if EVs do not succeed and they have invested significantly in supporting their customers.

2) Less fast charging infrastructure. This is essential for an EV to be useful as an only car! GM has already announced that they are not going to build out any sort of DC Fast Charging infrastructure, whereas Nissan and BMW are teaming up to build a network of DCFC facilities. The Bolt is likely to use the CCS connector which is the same as the i3's DCFC so they'll be able to use those stations. However, Tesla has already built the Supercharger network which is multiple times the size of the BMW/Nissan facilities; Tesla supplies adapters to the CHaDeMO ports that the Leaf uses so the Tesla will be able to use all of the above.

3) The Bolt is yet another funny-looking electric vehicle. Tesla Model 3 is likely to be a much better-looking (ie less weird) vehicle than the Bolt.

 

[deonb]

The wind tunnel doesn't lie and sometimes this ends up with less than stellar looks. Aerodynamics is more important on EVs than any gas car ever built.

Very true that it's important. But the Model S with its conventional look is by far the most aerodynamic EV available (drag coefficient of 0.24).

The Cd for the Leaf is 0.32 and the BMW i3 is 0.29.

In comparison the BMW 328i drag coefficient is 0.29. So aerodynamics alone is not an excuse for BMW not using a standard 3-series body for their EV.

 

[Dav8or]

True - But there's still some big problems with the Bolt vs. the Model 3, even if the cars end up being otherwise similar:

1) Lack of manufacturer/dealer support. EVs are an exceedingly tiny part of GM's business, and getting good service at the dealers and expecting automatic software upgrades from the factory as Tesla provides are both highly unlikely. Tesla, OTOH, has a lot more to lose if EVs do not succeed and they have invested significantly in supporting their customers.

2) Less fast charging infrastructure. This is essential for an EV to be useful as an only car! GM has already announced that they are not going to build out any sort of DC Fast Charging infrastructure, whereas Nissan and BMW are teaming up to build a network of DCFC facilities. The Bolt is likely to use the CCS connector which is the same as the i3's DCFC so they'll be able to use those stations. However, Tesla has already built the Supercharger network which is multiple times the size of the BMW/Nissan facilities; Tesla supplies adapters to the CHaDeMO ports that the Leaf uses so the Tesla will be able to use all of the above.

3) The Bolt is yet another funny-looking electric vehicle. Tesla Model 3 is likely to be a much better-looking (ie less weird) vehicle than the Bolt.

Good points about the support issues. At this time Tesla has a big advantage there. However that is predicated on Tesla staying business forever. IMO, they are nowhere near out of the woods and I still consider them very much a start up. The battery plant and the Model 3 might break them. They are barely getting by now and sales in China (last I read anyhow) have been disappointing and Tesla was counting on that market to be stronger for them.

I also believe that GM is very much committed to the EV at this point and see it as an inevitable way forward. However their legacy dealership situation is very much working against them at this time. As discussed above, dealers in the big picture hate EVs, are afraid of them, or really just don't understand them. Selling direct gives Tesla the advantage here for sure.

The charging infrastructure is what it is. Likely Bolts will be able to use the Tesla stations in the future, or the Nissan/BMW stations with an adaptor. GM may, or may not make this adaptor, but the aftermarket will, or Tesla/Nissan/BMW will to greater utilize their facilities.

I really don't see these as cross country machines anyhow. 200 miles isn't enough to do long road trips, but it is enough for everyone's commutes. They are at this time a second car, or an only car if you're willing to rent when you make that 3-4 long trips a year. I personally would use it as a second car.

The Bolt is a small compact hatchback. I see nothing else in this segment that looks any better really, gas diesel, whatever. As to what Tesla comes up with, yes I too expect something better looking because they have Franz von Holzhausen as their chief designer and he really believes in traditional good looks for modern cars, so not likely to come up with a geek mobile, but how nice we will see. To my points above, cost and consumer expectations will limit what they can do and they will have to make compromises to achieve those goals, something they haven't had to do with the Model S, or Model X.