ILS Approach and Landing Speeds

[dmccormack]

When I quote the "book," Dan criticizes me for dogmatism. When I say that my experience suggests the "book" is misleading, he criticizes me for contradicting the "book." I guess the lesson for me is not to argue with Dan, and you may be sure that I will refrain from doing so in the future.

Translation: "When the FAA agrees with me, they are right. When they don't, I'm still right."

Thanks for clearing that up, Ron.

 

[jesse]

Translation: "When the FAA agrees with me, they are right. When they don't, I'm still right."

Thanks for clearing that up, Ron.

Works in both directions Dan. Give the guy a break. We're allowed to have differing opinions.

 

[dmccormack]

Man I wish I could do that. In CO when the weather is IFR there's either ice or thunderstorms. Pretty much nothing in between. Maybe, just maybe, there are about 6 days a year where you could safely fly in the crud.

The month I earned my IR I had an endless supply of IMC, it seemed.

After that I wasn't so thrilled to know Pittsburgh area is the 18th cloudiest city in the US: http://www.city-data.com/top2/c477.html

 

[dmccormack]

Works in both directions Dan. Give the guy a break. We're allowed to have differing opinions.

Couldn't agree more, jesse, but I think the record shows Ron's not amenable to contradiction.

 

[poadeleted20]

So you're basically saying what I said - they come away with a rating, not experience.

In that context, who does?

I never said that most others come away better, but I know that my instructor picked the bad days to go flying. We had that option since we did it over the course of a couple of months rather than a couple of weeks. It made a difference.

...and PIC will do that, too, within the limits of a 10-day course. I say this to contrast the situation at many flight schools, where you may have trouble getting training in actual weather, especially below 1000-3. As a PIC instructor, I've often taken trainees to airports where the weather was below mins just so they could see a real, honest-to-God missed approach situation.

That said, if you train over many months, you do have an expanded opportunity to deal with a wider range of weather than you'll see in any 10-day period, and that does have its advantages. OTOH, for many folks, training in one big gulp is the only way they can get it done, and we try to make it as deep an exposure to real IFR as we can in that time.

 

[Ted]

That said, if you train over many months, you do have an expanded opportunity to deal with a wider range of weather than you'll see in any 10-day period, and that does have its advantages. OTOH, for many folks, training in one big gulp is the only way they can get it done, and we try to make it as deep an exposure to real IFR as we can in that time.

This is my point - as deep as you can is typically not going to be very deep in a 10-day period.

My instructor, too, deliberately took me to an airport where he knew we couldn't get in so that I'd have to do a real live missed approach. There was no question - we were solidly in the clouds at the MAP on a VOR approach. Very useful.

Most of the people I've talked to who've done the compressed courses haven't felt they came away competent instrument pilots. They did pick it up over time (as everyone does), but I felt that doing it over a period of sevearl months not only got me trained well, but gave me more real-world exposure to make me comfortable with real instrument flying. It was only a few weeks after getting my ticket that I took off into OVC010, was in the clouds for 2.5 hours straight, shot an ILS in OVC008, got fuel, took back off into that, and made got to 6Y9. I attribute that mainly to good training.

Of course, if you have a CFII who's afraid of flying in the clouds (I've met a frightening number of those), then you have another issue entirely.

 

[dmccormack]

This is my point - as deep as you can is typically not going to be very deep in a 10-day period.

There are very few certifications that automatically convey competence.

Yet IMHO the IR had the biggest gap between "This is what you need to do for the test" and "This is what it's really about."

 

[Ted]

There are very few certifications that automatically convey competence.

Agreed 100%. License to learn and all that.

Yet IMHO the IR had the biggest gap between "This is what you need to do for the test" and "This is what it's really about."

Agreed 500%. Real-world IFR isn't learned in a book.

 

[spiderweb]

You should be using the attitude indicator to control the steep turn, with reference to the altimeter to verify.

Which is probably what you did.

That depends on whether this is for VFR or IFR practice, no?

For some reason, my VFR steep turns aren't very good, and never have been. I was always within standards, but for commercial, just at the edges. Ticks me off, and I don't know what to do about it aside from flying steep turns for 10 hours in a row. Now, under the hood, they're a lot easier for me.

 

[spiderweb]

down here in florida the IFR is either a thunderstorm, or a cold front.

if you go up just before the squall line comes, it's bumpy IFR, but not dangerous...

smooth glass actual is great in california.. I don't know where else to go for that!

Maryland. COME TO MARYLAND.

 

[dmccormack]

That depends on whether this is for VFR or IFR practice, no?

For some reason, my VFR steep turns aren't very good, and never have been. I was always within standards, but for commercial, just at the edges. Ticks me off, and I don't know what to do about it aside from flying steep turns for 10 hours in a row. Now, under the hood, they're a lot easier for me.

It's exactly the same, only the size of the display is different.

In other words...

Memorize the picture out the window for the bank AND pitch attitude required to maintain the steep turn.

It's OK to "cheat" while learning to glance at the AI to confirm you actually are in a 40 or 50 or 60 degree bank.

Biggest problem I've seen is comm students trying to fly the maneuvers on the gauges. Why? you have a big Actual RealityTM display right out there in front of you!

You need lines? Have your CFI mark the windscreen with a grease pencil -- it will clean off.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

By its design, it can't. Further, during rapid changes, it lags well behind.

Ron is 100% correct. A VSI is next to worthless for maintining altitude, for instance in a steep turn.

The altimeter is MUCH more sensitive and gives the proper direction indication.

Show me WHERE in the IFH it says to use the VSI..............

Okay, here you go:

The VSI, like the altimeter, gives an indirect indication of pitch attitude and is both a trend and a rate instrument. As a trend instrument, it shows immediately the initial vertical movement of the airplane, which disregarding turbulence can be considered a reflection of pitch change. To maintain level flight, use the VSI in conjunction with the altimeter and attitude indicator. Note any positive or negative trend of the needle from zero and apply a very light corrective elevator pressure. As the needle returns to zero, relax the corrective pressure. If control pressures have been smooth and light, the needle reacts immediately and slowly, and the altimeter shows little or no change of altitude. As a rate instrument, the VSI requires consideration of lag characteristics.

Emphasis mine.

FWIW, I don't use the VSI as my primary indication of pitch, nor do I use the "Dan scan" (I use a radial scan of all the instruments). But the VSI *is* a lot more useful than I initially gave it credit for, and once I learned how to really use it as a trend instrument instead of just a rate instrument, it became much more useful to me.

 

[dmccormack]

FWIW, I don't use the VSI as my primary indication of pitch, nor do I use the "Dan scan" (I use a radial scan of all the instruments). But the VSI *is* a lot more useful than I initially gave it credit for, and once I learned how to really use it as a trend instrument instead of just a rate instrument, it became much more useful to me.

It's called the "Inverted V" and the credit goes to Gene Hudson.

 

[poadeleted20]

Okay, here you go:



Emphasis mine.

Except it just doesn't work like that in reality. The altimeter really does provide better trend information. Want proof? Try establishing a climb, and then pushing over (or a dive and then pulling up) -- see which instrument (VSI or altimeter) shows when you've leveled off first. The only time it provides an accurate immediate indication is in disturbance from absolutely level flight. Any other time, the altimeter shows the change first, and it always shows level-off first.

 

[Fearless Tower]

It's exactly the same, only the size of the display is different.

In other words...

Memorize the picture out the window for the bank AND pitch attitude required to maintain the steep turn.

It's OK to "cheat" while learning to glance at the AI to confirm you actually are in a 40 or 50 or 60 degree bank.

Biggest problem I've seen is comm students trying to fly the maneuvers on the gauges. Why? you have a big Actual RealityTM display right out there in front of you!

You need lines? Have your CFI mark the windscreen with a grease pencil -- it will clean off.

I actually got through my commercial flying steep turns relying heavily on the gauges with occasional glances at the horizon. This caught up with me when I started working on the CFI - first time I tried steep turns in the Arrow from the right seat, I was all over the sky! Trying to look across the panel to the left side wasn't working so well. Once I got the sight picture down and a feel for the timing of the yoke pressure getting the turn started, I was golden.

 

[dmccormack]

I actually got through my commercial flying steep turns relying heavily on the gauges with occasional glances at the horizon. This caught up with me when I started working on the CFI - first time I tried steep turns in the Arrow from the right seat, I was all over the sky! Trying to look across the panel to the left side wasn't working so well. Once I got the sight picture down and a feel for the timing of the yoke pressure getting the turn started, I was golden.

Yep.

Every time we'd go out to do Lazy 8s the sky would be typical Northeast haze with no discernible horizon. I got good at "instrument" Comm maneuvers, but when I finally had a clear day -- wow! So much easier.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Except it just doesn't work like that in reality. The altimeter really does provide better trend information. Want proof? Try establishing a climb, and then pushing over (or a dive and then pulling up) -- see which instrument (VSI or altimeter) shows when you've leveled off first.

I'm not talking about using it to level off from a climb.

The only time it provides an accurate immediate indication is in disturbance from absolutely level flight.

And that IS what I'm talking about.

 

[dmccormack]

I'm not talking about using it to level off from a climb.

I said the same thing yet the topic moved to steep turns...