Ignore wake turbulence?

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

Line Up and Wait
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VWGhiaBob
Am I the only pilot who frequently requests takeoff delays and 360's in the pattern due to jet wake turbulence?

I fly out of KVNY which mixes mucho GA traffic with jets...including 737's. Time and time again, I hear "caution wake turbulence" from the tower, and pilots ignore it. Even my instructor directed me to take off immediately behind a Hawker...no delay.

I always ask for departure delays or 360's.

Just yesterday on short final, I was cleared to land on 16R where a Hawker was told to expedite takeoff due to Cessna on short final. I asked the tower for a right 360 and arrived a few minutes later.

Today, we hear about an RV6 that may have experienced wake turbulence resulting in a fatality.

Three months ago, I was in a fully loaded 767 which hit wake turbulence behind an A380 on short final to Heathrow. The 767 turned nearly upside down, and stuff went flying all over the plane as the pilot attempted to regain control.

Given all that, why are we still tempted to throw caution to the wind (literally) anyway? Why do even instructors ignore warnings?

I'm hoping one day soon I hear about someone else delaying departure or doing a 360. Any takers?
 
My instructor, and college roommate, let me fly final in his 150 into the wake of a light twin just so I'd get the picture. I didn't think anything of it until we were banked about 45 degrees 400' above the fence on final. Never made that mistake again....
 
I am quite scared of wake turbulence and I maneuver around it, wait, or whatever else I feel is necessary. I have flown through my own wake which is quite fun but I have no interest in messing with anyone else's
 
I don't request a takeoff delay from the tower I just do it. If they tell me I'm cleared to takeoff but add the "warning wake turbulence", I will then proceed to take my sweet time to take as long as I want to get moving. Remember ATC works for US. Important thing is to line up so they don't let someone else get in front of you. They will not tell you to get moving because if something happens then they're in a world of hurt. Try it next time.
 
Hawka said:
I don't request a takeoff delay from the tower I just do it. If they tell me I'm cleared to takeoff but add the "warning wake turbulence", I will then proceed to take my sweet time to take as long as I want to get moving. Remember ATC works for US. Important thing is to line up so they don't let someone else get in front of you. They will not tell you to get moving because if something happens then they're in a world of hurt. Try it next time.
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outstanding points
 
The thing about wake turbulence is that you can have poor practices and be okay 95% or even 99% of the time. It might only take once to kill you though.
 
Hawka said:
I don't request a takeoff delay from the tower I just do it. If they tell me I'm cleared to takeoff but add the "warning wake turbulence", I will then proceed to take my sweet time to take as long as I want to get moving. Remember ATC works for US. Important thing is to line up so they don't let someone else get in front of you. They will not tell you to get moving because if something happens then they're in a world of hurt. Try it next time.
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That's a good idea. So the guy turning base can do a go around because you are holding up the runway.

Just request the delay.
 
Hawka said:
I don't request a takeoff delay from the tower I just do it. If they tell me I'm cleared to takeoff but add the "warning wake turbulence", I will then proceed to take my sweet time to take as long as I want to get moving. Remember ATC works for US. Important thing is to line up so they don't let someone else get in front of you. They will not tell you to get moving because if something happens then they're in a world of hurt. Try it next time.
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So when you get cleared for takeoff you might sit on the threshold for two minutes and not even say anything to the tower? Okay...
 
I had an interesting experience involving an Apache high-hovering on the field and a night landing in a 152.
 
F01LA said:
So when you get cleared for takeoff you might sit on the threshold for two minutes and not even say anything to the tower? Okay...
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Not quite. You take 30 seconds to start rolling from behind the hold short line, then take another 30 seconds to move slowly into place. Then another 30-45 seconds before getting going. By the time you reach where the jet departed you're beyond 2 minutes.
 
F01LA said:
So when you get cleared for takeoff you might sit on the threshold for two minutes and not even say anything to the tower? Okay...
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My "take" on his reply is that it is probably similar to what I do. Once preceding traffic touches down or takes off, I start my timer. I am looking for two minutes until I myself become airborne, not two minutes until "add takeoff power." So when you get "cleared for takeoff", you are gonna roll out on to the runway, line up, come to a stop, maybe apply parking brake (depening on your airplane model...), then add power. Remember, your timer has been started SINCE the prior guy landed or became airborne. And you were at the hold short line (not on the runway yourself) when the prior aircraft was landing/taking off.

So you likely are already one minute into your timer, and a one minute "wait" on the runway, or just 30 seconds, assuming it takes 15-30 seconds additional to start rolling and reach takeoff speed, is no big deal.

A problem arises when at a busy airport, you get told "position and hold, expect immediate" once a guy passes the runway threshold and is touching down, tower is already lining you up on the numbers for takeoff. Or similar the second they launch one guy, they have you rolling out and lining up.

In those situations, you have to communicate to tower. The word "unable" is pretty useful. I have used "request one minute wake turbulence delay please" and tower in most cases will work with you.
 
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I've always worried about it more when going the same direction. If I'm landing and they're taking off, I was taught to touch down before their rotation point. Taking of and landing, rotate beyond where they touched down. Maybe I should worry more.
 
I'm afraid of wake turbulence. Two days ago I was holding short when a Duchess came in and did a touch and go. My takeoff weight was probably around 1100lb. I waited a couple of minutes before departing. The Duchess isn't that big, but I am really small, and with a touch and go you get two sets of vortices to avoid, so smarter just to wait it out.
 
dell30rb said:
I had an interesting experience involving an Apache high-hovering on the field and a night landing in a 152.
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AH-64 fly's at 21500 pounds...CH-47 can raze havoc even worse...
 
Hawka said:
I don't request a takeoff delay from the tower I just do it. If they tell me I'm cleared to takeoff but add the "warning wake turbulence", I will then proceed to take my sweet time to take as long as I want to get moving. Remember ATC works for US. Important thing is to line up so they don't let someone else get in front of you. They will not tell you to get moving because if something happens then they're in a world of hurt. Try it next time.
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Its not difficult to follow your takeoff clearance acknowledgement with "request 2 minute delay for wake turbulence" or something like that.

ATC is dealing with traffic coming in/out and an airplane unexpectedly sitting on the runway can cause a headache for the controller and your fellow pilots who might be approaching the airport.
 
Lindberg said:
I've always worried about it more when going the same direction. If I'm landing and they're taking off, I was taught to touch down before their rotation point. Taking of and landing, rotate beyond where they touched down. Maybe I should worry more.
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Good points but the problem is it is pretty hard to land a (for example) Cessna 182 past the rotation point of a 757. What about the "land in first third of runway" rule we all learned ? What rules are we going to choose to violate in order to follow others ? Etc.

Takeoff is somewhat easier, but say you have a Super Cub or light Cherokee 6 300 (climbs like scalded ape). You are lined up on numbers, and try to rotate PAST the touchdown point (likely the thousand foot but almost never past the two thousand foot marker) of the prior landing 757.

See how this is "nice" in theory but can be problematic in practice ?

I have thrown all those out the window and implemented time delays and it works every time. When my IronMan digital watch (Zulu time is on Time-2) says "two minutes" I know I am safe.

Easy
 
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B350ATP said:
Good points but the problem is it is pretty hard to land a (for example) Cessna 182 past the rotation point of a 757. What about the "land in first third of runway" rule we all learned ?
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If you are landing a 182 PAST the rotation point of a 757, you are doing it wrong and asking for trouble.
 
Fearless Tower said:
An H-53 is even worse.
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Those are beasts. I was surf fishing in the middle of nowhere on the outer banks when a formation of 3 H53's flew overhead at a low altitude. You could see the black smoke traveling all the way down to the beach in the rotor wash.
 
Hawka said:
Not quite. You take 30 seconds to start rolling from behind the hold short line, then take another 30 seconds to move slowly into place. Then another 30-45 seconds before getting going. By the time you reach where the jet departed you're beyond 2 minutes.
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That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Don't accept a takeoff clearance if you're not ready to go.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Don't accept a takeoff clearance if you're not ready to go.
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Exactly. If you follow his advice, at many busy fields, you are likely to get 'N12345 cancel takeoff clearance, hold short'
 
Fearless Tower said:
If you are landing a 182 PAST the rotation point of a 757, you are doing it wrong and asking for trouble.
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misread the other guys post, I meant on landing (the preceding aircraft landing before you)

in any event, time delay is most effective. And to adjust avoidance procedures for crossing runways and winds. Wake turbulence can "stay" over the area if winds provide for it.
 
B350ATP said:
misread the other guys post, I meant on landing (the preceding aircraft landing before you)

in any event, time delay is most effective. And to adjust avoidance procedures for crossing runways and winds. Wake turbulence can "stay" over the area if winds provide for it.
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Got ya. Thought something seemed wrong there.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Exactly. If you follow his advice, at many busy fields, you are likely to get 'N12345 cancel takeoff clearance, hold short'
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That's why you need to be on the numbers ready to go. Kind of difficult to hold short if you're already lined up and waiting.

:rolleyes:
 
For most of us takeoff after a departing jet is not a big deal -- we'll be off the ground well before the jet's rotation point and we'll outclimb the jet as well (as far as climb angle goes anyway). Departing after a jet has landed is the only time I'm really inclined to wait, given that I'll be rotating right around the point the jet landed, although theoretically the wake turbulence should be less than after a departure.
 
One of the last couple of flights I had a citation took off as I was finishing my run-up. Tower nstructed me to hold short for wake turbulence. Maybe it was only 2 minutes but it felt like 5. I started wondering if he forgot about me but since nobody besides me and the departing traffic was even on the radio that seemed unlikely and I honestly wasn't sure how long to wait so I sat.

He did finally clear me, probably was only 2 minutes and just felt like 5. Just an odd thing. I've been in that exact situation a few times before and this is the first time they did this.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Exactly. If you follow his advice, at many busy fields, you are likely to get 'N12345 cancel takeoff clearance, hold short'
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Is that true? Would you really lose the takeoff clearance because of following a safety procedure? He issued the caution along with the clearance.
 
About a month or so ago I was hanging around the airport and watching a couple of Embraers taking off. Someone was in a light twin landing right afterward. My handheld heard, "clear to land, caution wake turbulence". I watched to see how he handled it. He landed past their rotation point, and I could see him rocking pretty good. He mentioned to tower "that turbulence was pretty good on short final", tower said, "Yeah, I bet."
 
AuntPeggy said:
Is that true? Would you really lose the takeoff clearance because of following a safety procedure? He issued the caution along with the clearance.
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The point is not in delaying, it's not communicating with ATC. Tell them you'll wait for one minute. This allows ATC to change their scheduling of other takeoffs and landings that are happening.

When you're given clearance for take-off, ATC is expecting the plane to take the runway and take-off. The wake turbulence warning they give is just that, a warning, and good information so if you decide as PIC that you'll wait, you can tell ATC.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Is that true? Would you really lose the takeoff clearance because of following a safety procedure? He issued the caution along with the clearance.
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I'd say there's a big difference between telling the tower you need a little time before takeoff, and just sitting there without telling them what you're doing.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Is that true? Would you really lose the takeoff clearance because of following a safety procedure? He issued the caution along with the clearance.
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If you accept a takeoff clearance and immediately ask for a two minute delay for wake turbulence, i'd expect something like 'request approved, line up and wait'.

Yes your clearance could be canceled, but I wouldn't expect it. Maybe if there was a 737 on final. Unless there is a tailwind, it is not a problem to takeoff after a landing aircraft as long as you liftoff past his touchdown point, so you wouldn't have to delay after he landed.

If you do as Hawka suggests and take 30 seconds to get rolling, 30 seconds to taxi in place and sit on the numbers for a minute with no explanation, you could get your clearance canceled too.
 
dell30rb said:
If you accept a takeoff clearance and immediately ask for a two minute delay for wake turbulence, i'd expect something like 'request approved, line up and wait'.

Yes your clearance could be canceled, but I wouldn't expect it. Maybe if there was a 737 on final. Unless there is a tailwind, it is not a problem to takeoff after a landing aircraft as long as you liftoff past his touchdown point, so you wouldn't have to delay after he landed.

If you do as Hawka suggests and take 30 seconds to get rolling, 30 seconds to taxi in place and sit on the numbers for a minute with no explanation, you could get your clearance canceled too.
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with that said, I don't think any NTSB file has "killed by having his takeoff clearance cancelled"

I can however find numerous wake turbulence cases
 
B350ATP said:
with that said, I don't think any NTSB file has "killed by having his takeoff clearance cancelled"

I can however find numerous wake turbulence cases
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Right. Even if your takeoff clearance was cancelled it would be because of other traffic and I can see no reason why a controller would be offended or inconvenienced by the request. I'm sure he/she would understand and try their best to accommodate you.
 
Wake turbulence doesn't seem so scary because most of the time you can't see it. Under some rare atmospheric conditions, though, you can see some of what it is doing ... and and you don't want any part of it in a light airplane. Give it a wide berth.

www.airliners.net/photo/South-African-Airways/Airbus-A340-642/2432701/L
www.airliners.net/photo/British-Airways/Boeing-777-236-ER/2404129/L
www.airliners.net/photo/Finnair/McDonnell-Douglas-MD-11/0310032/L
www.airliners.net/photo/Northwest-Airlines/McDonnell-Douglas-DC-10-30-ER/0405242/L
www.airliners.net/photo/Finnair/McDonnell-Douglas-MD-82/0496347/L
www.airliners.net/photo/Swiss-International-Air/McDonnell-Douglas-MD-11/0464227/L
www.airliners.net/photo/KLM---Royal/Boeing-747-206BM(SF-SUD)/0239080/L

With regard to Van Nuys, in 2001 an American General Tiger on downwind for 16L encountered the wake of an airliner inbound to Burbank. The NTSB report says,
The outboard 1/3 of the aircraft's left wing was deformed upward about 5 degrees with respect to the inboard section during an encounter with wake turbulence while on downwind leg for landing. The upper wing skins of both wings exhibited compression buckling, and the mass balance weights on both ailerons were separated and fell from the aircraft. The pilot reported that the flight was unremarkable until, while downwind for landing, there was an instantaneous jolt of sudden severe turbulence that ended before he could take any action. Data obtained from the airport noise abatement office showed that 2 minutes 23 seconds prior to the encounter, a heavy transport aircraft passed over the location on an ILS approach to another airport 6 miles away; the transport airplane was about 500 feet higher than the accident airplane as it crossed the location. The air traffic control tower at the airport where the accident occurred made a wake turbulence cautionary broadcast to all aircraft 30 seconds prior to when the accident aircraft first contacted the tower for landing. The cautionary broadcast was not repeated.
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