IFR navigation

RotorDude said:
I was not aware of that, and I thought I was an expert in the history of IFR flying, starting with Jimmy Doolittle's first IFR flight and the Low Frequency Radio Range. Can you please elaborate?
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What about the guys who'd spin through an overcast? A pop-down clearance so-to-speak...
 
Clark1961 said:
What about the guys who'd spin through an overcast? A pop-down clearance so-to-speak...
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That would be IMC flying. I am focusing on Instrument Flight Rules flying, in IMC.
 
Amr Hosny said:
Flying a radial to and from a VOR, I'm familiar and comfortable with however if you are to make an approach by arriving at specific IAF, IF, FAf how can determine the distances for each one of those fixes. Is it still by determining the two radials of two VORs ( assuming you don't have a DME).
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The distances between fixes is on the charts. How far you are from any particular fix at a particular time can be be done precisely with DME of course. You can get close with arithmetic. How fast are you going, at what time did you cross the last fix, how long have you been flying since then. Do the math and you know how far you are from the next fix. Yeah it's a lot of number crunching to do and sounds complicated. That is why the E6B was invented.
 
Ravioli said:
Without DME or an intersection you can rely on Time. See the lower right corner of this approach plate for an example.
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The speed would be indicated or ground?
 
Clark1961 said:
Did they have any rules then?
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They sure did. They had rules long before they had radar, but of course those rules evolved over time.
In any case, my question related specifically to "flying IFR without electronic navigation".
 
RotorDude said:
I was not aware of that, and I thought I was an expert in the history of IFR flying, starting with Jimmy Doolittle's first IFR flight and the Low Frequency Radio Range. Can you please elaborate?
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Never said they had equipment to fly IFR, just meant that people at the time went ahead and flew into clouds and did other dumb things.
 
Amr Hosny said:
The speed would be indicated or ground?
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Without referring you back to a CFII, as I did previously, I'll ask you what you have in your plane showing you ground speed.

RotorDude said:
It's estimated ground speed.
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I presume it is all indicated because I don't remember anything in flight training dealing with ground speed. @denverpilot can fill us in, and probably in great detail :)
 
Ravioli said:
Without referring you back to a CFII, as I did previously, I'll ask you what you have in your plane showing you ground speed.



Same question to you. I presume it is all indicated because I don't remember anything in flight training dealing with ground speed. @denverpilot can fill us in, and probably in great detail :)
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Ravioli said:
Without referring you back to a CFII, as I did previously, I'll ask you what you have in your plane showing you ground speed.



Same question to you. I presume it is all indicated because I don't remember anything in flight training dealing with ground speed. @denverpilot can fill us in, and probably in great detail :)
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In the plane zip fly there isa GPS, but I know it should be used as a reference only in the flight test.
 
murphey said:
Never said they had equipment to fly IFR, just meant that people at the time went ahead and flew into clouds and did other dumb things.
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What you said was, "In fact people flew IFR before electronic navigation equipment was invented. Maybe not always sucessfully, but they did."
You didn't say IMC.
But given that that's a common error, esp. on the part of new pilots or VFR-only pilots, I accept it as you meant it.
However, I believe the OP's question was not about flying IMC, but about executing IFR approaches, so referring to IMC flying is missing his point.
 
Ravioli said:
I presume it is all indicated because I don't remember anything in flight training dealing with ground speed.
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Hopefully you are joking, or are not IFR-rated or even an IFR student.
Because if you were any of the above, you'd know that timed fixes (like missed approach) rely on estimated ground speed.
 
Ravioli said:
Without referring you back to a CFII, as I did previously, I'll ask you what you have in your plane showing you ground speed.



I presume it is all indicated because I don't remember anything in flight training dealing with ground speed.
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When one starts saying he never did a VFR xc, calculating and timing the distance between waypoints in the ground, and that indicated airspeed tells you how much time it will take to travel between them, we are definitely in the realm of trolling.
 
Amr Hosny said:
The speed would be indicated or ground?
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Those are ground speed. They have to be. They are for identifying a very important point. The point you need to abandon the approach and begin the Missed Approach if you don't see the airport so you won't overfly it and run into something like a mountain, building or tower. The Chart has no idea what the winds are. You have to determine your ground speed.
 
RotorDude said:
Hopefully you are joking, or are not IFR-rated or even an IFR student.
Because if you were any of the above, you'd know that timed fixes (like missed approach) rely on estimated ground speed.
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luvflyin said:
Those are ground speed. They have to be. They are for identifying a very important point. The point you need to abandon the approach and begin the Missed Approach if you don't see the airport so you won't overfly it and run into something like a mountain, building or tower. The Chart has no idea what the winds are. You have to determine your ground speed.
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I stand corrected.

And @midlifeflyer also helped me with the error in my previous thought. Yah, nothing in a standard sixpack shows ground speed, but we do need to know how to determine it.
 
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There are even some 121 operators with DC9's that still file VOR to VOR
 
Thanks. Just double checked and it is definitely GS.
 
It just seems so difficult to do all that in the soup without the help of a GPS.
 
RotorDude said:
They sure did. They had rules long before they had radar, but of course those rules evolved over time.
In any case, my question related specifically to "flying IFR without electronic navigation".
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Did they have instruments then?
 
Clark1961 said:
Did they have instruments then?
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Not sure what you mean by "then", and even the Wright brothers had some (albeit primitive) "instruments". But maybe this article (esp. the history section) can help you get a picture of the early days of IFR flying and answer your question.
 
RotorDude said:
Not sure what you mean by "then", and even the Wright brothers had some (albeit primitive) "instruments". But maybe this article (esp. the history section) can help you get a picture of the early days of IFR flying and answer your question.
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How do you calculate your GS in the soup since you do not have any reference to the ground. We used to calculate that by the use of e6b or elec. flight calculator by checking the time it took between two landmarks.
 
RotorDude said:
Not sure what you mean by "then", and even the Wright brothers had some (albeit primitive) "instruments". But maybe this article (esp. the history section) can help you get a picture of the early days of IFR flying and answer your question.
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Well if they had instruments and you say they had rules then they had IFR. Easy-peasy
 

Cat & Duck Method of Instrument Flight


The basic rules for the Cat and Duck method of instrument flight are fairly well known and are extremely simple. Here's how

it's done:

1. Place a live cat on the cockpit floor; because a cat always remains upright, he or she can be used in lieu of a needle and ball.

Merely watch to see which way the cat leans to determine is a wing is low, and if so, which one.

2. The duck is used for the instrument approach and landing. Because of the fact that any sensible duck will refuse to fly under

instrument conditions, it is only necessary to hurl your duck out of the plane and follow her to the ground.

There are some limitations to the Cat and Duck Method, but by rigidly adhering to the following checklist, a degree of success

will be achieved which will surely startle you, your passengers, and even an occasional tower operator:

1. Get a wide-awake cat. Most cats do not want to stand up at all. It may be necessary to carry a large dog in the cockpit to

keep the cat at attention.

2. Make sure your cat is clean. Dirty cats will spend all their time washing. Trying to follow a washing cat usually results in a

tight snap roll followed by an inverted spin (flat).

3. Use old cats only. Young cats have nine lives, but old, used-up cats with only one life left have just as much to lose as you

do and will be more dependable.

4. Beware of cowardly ducks. If the duck discovers that you are using the cat to stay upright, she will refuse to leave without

the cat. Ducks are no better in IFR conditions than you are.

5. Be sure that the duck has good eyesight. Nearsighted ducks sometimes fail to realize that they are on the gauges and go

flogging off into the nearest hill. Very nearsighted ducks will not realize they have been thrown out and will descend to the ground

in a sitting position. This maneuver is very difficult to follow in an airplane.

6. Use land-loving ducks. It is very discouraging to break out and find yourself on final for a rice paddy, particularly if there

are duck hunters around. Duck hunters suffer from temporary insanity while sitting in freezing weather in the blinds and will shoot

at anything that flies.

7. Choose your duck carefully. It is easy to confuse ducks with geese because many water birds look alike. While they are

very competent instrument fliers, geese seldom want to go in the same direction as you. If your duck heads off for Canada or

Mexico, you may be sure that you have been given the goose.

From Instrument Flying by Richard Taylor
 
Amr Hosny said:
How do you calculate your GS in the soup since you do not have any reference to the ground. We used to calculate that by the use of e6b or elec. flight calculator by checking the time it took between two landmarks.
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Time between fixes gives ground speed. Pre-radar, position reports were given and those reports included time to next reporting point which was calculated using estimated ground speed. That groundspeed and wind calc had to be updated at each fix to make accurate reports.
 
Clark1961 said:
Time between fixes gives ground speed. Pre-radar, position reports were given and those reports included time to next reporting point which was calculated using estimated ground speed. That groundspeed and wind calc had to be updated at each fix to make accurate reports.
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Now days out west when the radar goes down the position reports are pretty brief: report over XXX has been a common instruction...
 
Amr Hosny said:
In the plane zip fly there isa GPS, but I know it should be used as a reference only in the flight test.
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I was joking about iPads which is what the previous poster was talking about. Handheld GPS units aren't certified and therefore are considered to only be for "situational awareness" but that is no reason not to use every piece of information you have available to you in the cockpit.

There are panel "mounts" for non-certified handheld GPS units, but they're not as common as certified installations in certified aircraft.

It sounds like you're talking about something installed in the panel. If it's installed in the panel, it's likely to be certified and usable for whatever the manual says it's usable for, as long as the installation was also certified. You need to study your aircraft's POH air AFM and addendums added if the avionics have been updated from what was installed when the aircraft left the factory.

Talk to your instructor about it. I'm surprised they haven't discussed it with you already if you're already training. You need to know what avionics are on board and what they're certified to do.

If it's in the panel, it's fair game for an examiner to ask you to show them how you would operate it, if it isn't inoperative (and legally placarded).

If you're taking about an IFR checkride, expect every instrument in the panel to be tested. Even an old ADF. They've recently stopped testing ADF on the written tests, but I haven't seen any guidance to stop testing it on flight tests.

I could be uninformed on that ADF flight test part, but typing this from a grocery store parking lot, I'm not going to look it up here. You can. You'll need to know it more than I will, and it's your job as PIC to be prepared! :)
 
Amr Hosny said:
It just seems so difficult to do all that in the soup without the help of a GPS.
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If you can do it without a GPS (and you can), doing it with a GPS is even easier.

Doesn't work so well the other way around when the GPS fails and you don't know how to do anything but follow the GPS.

It's not that hard. It does take practice though.
 
denverpilot said:
If you can do it without a GPS (and you can), doing it with a GPS is even easier.

Doesn't work so well the other way around when the GPS fails and you don't know how to do anything but follow the GPS.

It's not that hard. It does take practice though.
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Following a CDI is following a CDI, whether it's driven by a GPS or a VOR receiver. At least some people are confusing a GPS with a moving map.
 
Anyone remember a center clearance "fly heading xxx until able yyy". At times yyy was 1000 miles away.
 
MAKG1 said:
Following a CDI is following a CDI, whether it's driven by a GPS or a VOR receiver. At least some people are confusing a GPS with a moving map.
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I haven't seen a non-moving map GPS installed in a panel in a very long time. You're correct of course, but who knows with this guy, what he's talking about...

So there's another possibility for what he means when he says the airplane has a GPS in the panel.

Hopefully his instructor is going over this stuff with him in person with the real aircraft and books.
 
Amr Hosny said:
How do you calculate your GS in the soup since you do not have any reference to the ground. We used to calculate that by the use of e6b or elec. flight calculator by checking the time it took between two landmarks.
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I'll mention two basic ones.

One, you still have reference to the ground. You are still going place to place, even if those places are navaids and intersections. So you can do the exact same timing exercise you did as a student pilot on your first dual cross country. This is exactly what pilots did in the non-radar days of position reporting (look that one up).

Two, ATIS and AWOS aren't just to tell you there will be a crosswind when you land.

Also, keep in mind we are talking about a world in which estimates are king and bubbles of protection are built in. Practically speaking, we are just trying to get into the ballpark.
 
Amr Hosny said:
It just seems so difficult to do all that in the soup without the help of a GPS.
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I fly "/U," which is the equipment code (very soon to be replaced by new ICAO equipment codes) meaning I'm IFR with no GPS and no DME.

For timing the final approach, it needn't be perfect. If you are flying into the wind on the final approach course, then your ground speed would be less than indicated. Assuming it's not howling too much, you can just add a few knots indicated, or add a few seconds and still be well within safe margins.

The "it needn't be perfect" mantra will serve you well, too. It's 18 miles to the VOR station; what's your ETA? Most trainers fly roughly 120 knots, which is 2 miles a minute. ETA is D/2, or 9 minutes. You're flying 110, or 130? No worries. For relatively short distances, it's still close enough. Do the math and see for yourself.
 
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Im pretty sure, you can actually legally fly on an IFR clearance, in IMC, with just a radio. No transponder, no VOR required. You need the gyros of course. For practical purposes you do need a transponder.
 
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