IFR C150 upgrades [help]

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Sam Powell

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PilotSam
Hi everyone, first post here. I’m buying a Cessna 150G in the next month. It’s in great shape will have a 0 time engine, but currently only has a single Apollo GX-65 gps/comm and no CDI. It does have a mode S transponder and the UAvionx wing beacon ADS-B out. I want to upgrade the avionics to do my IR training in it (currently a private pilot), but I am completely stumped as for what to put into the plane.
I am currently debating going the “cheap” route and installing a King KX-165 nav/com and a king KI-204 VOR/GS, paired with either the PMA 4000 or PMA 6000 audio panel and a king DME. I would use the current GX-65 as my com 2 but this system would only allow LOC/ILS approaches.
My other consideration is buying a used Garmin 430 (or similar) and pairing that with a CDI, audio panel, and the GX-65 as com 2.
My dilema is wether the 430 is worth the extra cost. I could get the KX-165 and KI-204 together for around $2k but the 430 (non-WAAS) on it’s own is at least $5k. Regardless I’ll need an audio panel, CDI, and a nav antenna installed, with the DME only being needed if I don’t get the GPS.
Everyone I’ve talked to thinks I should go with a 430 but the cost is just immense. My mission for this plane is to be my IFR trainer and time builder. I am planning to sell it after I get my IR and a few hundred hours. So is the 430 (or similar) worth the cost or should I just go with the old king avionics? Does anyone have any suggestions as for inexpensive but not totally crap basic IFR upgrades? I am not planning to fly my C150 in hard IMC.
One note: I am currently the shop assistant at my FBO’s maintenance center, and they have the King K-165 and KI-204 already there so I wouldn’t need to source it. My IA gave me an estimate cost of around $2k, with me doing as much of the work as possible.
Any inputs or advise is greatly appreciated. I am still a fairly green pilot and am trying to make the right call for the position I am in.
Thanks and Safe flying!

Sam
 
I don't know what hard IMC is. You're either flying IFR, or you're not.

It's 2021. VORs barely still exist, particularly as the basis for instrument approaches.

I'll go ahead and say it. It's not an IFR trainer if it's not capable of flying WAAS LPV approaches. Period. At a minimum I would install a Garmin 430W/420W.

If you tell me that you can't do that because it will cost half the value of the plane, I'll tell you that you should have bought a more expensive plane.
 
You want to fly the plane IFR?

GNX 375 (Transponder, ADS B in and out, and GPS)
G5 AHR
G5 HSI with GPS Interface
New audio panel
GNC 225 for Com 1 and Nav 1
current GX-65 as com 2

I can't see paying anything for a GNS 430, DME, ADF, etc.

Far above $2,000. If you don't have that, perhaps rent an IFR plane for your training. Then again, not sure why you bought it if you were going to sell it after your IFR training?????
 
Your Cessna 150 is 12/14 volt, right? KX165 is 24/28 volt. KX155 comes in both 12/14 volt and 24/28 volt versions, so be careful there too.
 
Lots of us got our IR without WAAS, G5’s, etc. My rating didn’t “go bad” with a move up in aircraft and avionics. I think getting you’re IR with the bare minimums is absolutely fine. Know your limitations. And the rating is a license to learn, so moving into more modern capability is done with more training and practice. I did the 150, built a couple hundred hrs, moved up to a decently equipped (non-WAAS) 172 and got my IR. Moved to bigger and better from there. Keep it simple.
 
Hi Sam,
For a Cessna 150, in my honest opinion, you are not going to want this to be a full glass solid rocked-out pannel. I would however make sure like many others have said that you have a GPS w/ WAAS. What we did in our Piper Cherokee 235 was Dual G5's and a GNC 355. From what I have seen 430s typically are going for about 5-6k. In my honest opinion, I would bite the bullet and go for the GNC355 as it is only a little over $7,000, especially since you are already ADSB-OUT compliant.
 
Hi Sam.

First, I would look at airports in your vicinity to see what approaches are available without having to fly an hour to get there. Also, what equipment is required to fly those approaches, and would an older King stack get you there. If you could get two nonprecision and one ILS, the older radios would work.

Second, I personally would not put an older radio like a 430 in. I think you would be better off getting one of Garmin's newer offers. I am not familiar with the Apollo, but if it has capability to fly an ILS, then I would leave it and get something from Garmin like a GPS 175 and add a PSE PAR2000B for the audio panel and second radio. It would fit a little better in a 150. That would give you a pretty nice IFR panel. You would likely not get your money back in a sale, but if you factor in the flying you do pursuing the IR, you might about break even.

My $0.02 worth.
 
If this were my airplane I'd consider ripping out all the current equipment except the transponder. Then get a non-waas 430 installed and leave it at that. This route would eliminate the need for an audio panel and its installation cost and provide adequate equipment to earn an instrument rating with.
 
It's a 150, (nothing wrong with that) that you plan to sell after awhile. Though I completely understand the 'must have a GPS for IFR training/flight' in the modern world of IFR flying, as simie1 says, you can certainly get adequate training and complete your instrument rating with only the one Nav/Comm and the CDI. You don't even need the DME, your Apollo can be used to enhance situational awareness, and even practice pseudo-DME arcs (just not as a legal substitute in real IFR flight). Sure, there's all kinds of (expensive) stuff that would be great to have, but, I'd vote to go the cheapest route for now, and save any serious upgrades for your next plane.
 
My POV for your consideration. Respect to those who learned IFR with an ADF, DME, and a vacuum tube VOR with a crystal radio for a com.

As an IFR student, I can't imagine investing in IFR training that doesn't include a GPS navigation system. Approaches seem to be a lot of what IFR flying is about LOL.

Looking at the approaches that are available and will be, not having LPV training is going to be tough. Training on ILS is a good substitute, but those are not as plentiful. VOR approaches are hard to find, ARC approaches are just about extinct, etc. FWIS, I can't even imagine training toady with a non WAAS GPS.

Again - back to the basic question. Why are you buying this plane? If it is just for IFR training and then you'll sell it, this plane doesn't make sense for you.
 
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Without an IFR Gps, you will have to learn a lot of stuff that you will probably never use. I’d go with a GPS175 and a single Nav/Com. Unless you expect to do a lot of IFR, one Com is adequate. The plane will be more valuable and easier to sell if it has a WAAS GPS. You will be able to advertise it as an IFR trainer, because that’s what you equipped it for.
 
Jesse Saint said:
Without an IFR Gps, you will have to learn a lot of stuff that you will probably never use. I’d go with a GPS175 and a single Nav/Com. Unless you expect to do a lot of IFR, one Com is adequate. The plane will be more valuable and easier to sell if it has a WAAS GPS. You will be able to advertise it as an IFR trainer, because that’s what you equipped it for.
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I think this is probably the most reasonable advice. The fact is that buying capability for your plane is not cheap. A previous poster also made a good point - what type of approaches are available close to your airport? Spending 0.5+ hours to get out to a place that has an approach you can do will cost you in the medium term...
 
Is the lower minimum that a wass unit gives you really needed in a C150?
 
Buying a Garmin non wass that breaks and can’t be repaired is a bad investment.
 
Bathman said:
Is the lower minimum that a wass unit gives you really needed in a C150?
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Yes, because you don't need to find an ILS to meet the precision approach requirement of an instrument rating. As the other poster mentioned, virtually every non-WAAS navigator is out of support so a bricked unit can't be repaired. Since a significant cost of the unit is labor for installation, it's bad economics to install 15+ year old equipment.

BTW- it's "WAAS", not "wass"
 
WDD said:
Buying a Garmin non wass that breaks and can’t be repaired is a bad investment.
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That is dependent on the price you pay for it. I would consider them disposable if you bought one, but I’d also consider them far superior to any King radio being considered and probably similarly priced.

People were still installing old King GPS units for years after I would have considered them a boat anchor and nobody gave a second thought to that so I struggle to understand why people think different of Garmin products.
 
I would take the approach that you anything you put in can be taken out and moved to your new A/C with just a purchase of a new tray. Put in a newer WAAS gps and learn to fly current approaches. Use something cheap, like a KX165, for nav-2. When it comes to selling the A/C, you have the choice of the buyer paying you more if you leave the gps in. If he does not want it, then you can move it to your new A/C.
While I fly with, and like the 430W, getting them fixed now days is a problem. Much better to move on up to current equipment.
 
Do what works for you. Do you have a decent number of VOR approaches in your area and are the VORs part of the Minimum Operational Network?

A Cessna 150 isn't a great IFR trainer anyway, it's too slow. Mine would barely hold 90 knots. I wouldn't bother with a GPS, WAAS or not. You can learn GPS approaches later or in a sim. Obviously my opinion differs from the majority.
 
mondtster said:
That is dependent on the price you pay for it. I would consider them disposable if you bought one, but I’d also consider them far superior to any King radio being considered and probably similarly priced.

People were still installing old King GPS units for years after I would have considered them a boat anchor and nobody gave a second thought to that so I struggle to understand why people think different of Garmin products.
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Installation costs would be wasted.

I had a GNS 430 go out - you lost not just the GPS but also everything else it did - the coms. I had to use the 2nd com most of the way home with wife and daughter on board. Not a happy camper.
 
WDD said:
Installation costs would be wasted.

I had a GNS 430 go out - you lost not just the GPS but also everything else it did - the coms. I had to use the 2nd com most of the way home with wife and daughter on board. Not a happy camper.
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Installation costs may or may not be wasted depending on what the replacement is. If I had a failure I’d just find another replacement and slide it in.

Airplanes fly just fine without radios so I’d consider a failure a minor hardship. Further, I’ve been around a lot of radios and airplanes and I have had trouble with and replaced far more King boxes than Garmin so far. The OP is talking about adding a King (a King I hate BTW) that will likely cause far more annoying troubles than an old 430 will.
 
WDD said:
IFR training and flying without a radio minor?
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For getting back home, sure.

Ive flown NORDO all over this country (obviously VFR). Radios are a convenience, not a necessity.
 
mondtster said:
For getting back home, sure.

Ive flown NORDO all over this country (obviously VFR). Radios are a convenience, not a necessity.
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The purpose of the OP buying the plane is to do IFR training. One of the Rs in GRABCARD is radio. Hard to get vectors with light signals … :)
 
WDD said:
The purpose of the OP buying the plane is to do IFR training. One of the Rs in GRABCARD is radio. Hard to get vectors with light signals … :)
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:rolleyes: Your premise that the 430 will go out just doesn't happen on a regular basis. It's dumb to build an entire radio package around the idea that one thing might go out one day on one trip, and that one trip that it goes out on is somehow going to affect the entirety of a student's training.

Remember, the OP is trying to do this on a small budget. In other words, he's asking us to recommend the best of the worst stuff. In my opinion, a single non-waas 430 and a transponder will provide the most functionality for the least price and should remain reliable for the remainder of his ownership period.
 
You were saying he didn’t need a radio ?????
 
WDD said:
You were saying he didn’t need a radio ?????
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No I didn’t. I was responding to you implying that it’s a near emergency to have a radio quit during a flight and have to finish the flight on Com 2.
 
You said airplanes fly just fine without radios. Not a hardship. You didn’t say planes fly fine with only one radio.

My POV is that the OP needs for his IFR training something besides a non WAAS 430.

I don’t understand what your moving points are - maybe you weren’t thinking of IFR training when you said he could fly with no radio. Anyway - peace
 
WDD said:
You said airplanes fly just fine without radios.
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And they do.

WDD said:
Not a hardship. You didn’t say planes fly fine with only one radio.
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In my opinion it is not a hardship to have to finish one flight with a radio failure, which is what your entire case was really built around for not using the non-waas 430.

WDD said:
I don’t understand what your moving points are - maybe you weren’t thinking of IFR training when you said he could fly with no radio. Anyway - peace
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I've tried to communicate my point to you several times, which was addressing your one time radio failure. I wouldn't be enthused with a radio failure in IMC but it's nothing more than a minor inconvenience to have a radio fail on one flight in the training environment or even on a realistic trip one would take in a Cessna 150.

I was very much thinking of instrument training with all my comments. I know what the minimum I prefer to see in an airplane presented to me for use in instrument training is, based on what approaches are easily accessible to me in this area so I can provide efficient and cost effective training. The ground based approaches are dwindling; some of them being replaced by RNAV approaches and some going away altogether. That makes using a /A or /U airplane a challenge but not impossible. Having waas is nice but not absolutely necessary.

The garmin 430 unit, whether waas or not is an all in one box. If that was the only radio installed the cost of an audio panel and its installation could be bypassed and it has enough features in it to allow adequate flight training in almost any environment. The 150 is realistically only going to be used as an instrument trainer so I wouldn't put a ton of radio equipment or money into it and it sounds like that is where the OP is wanting to go.
 
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mondtster said:
In my opinion it is not a hardship to have to finish one flight with a radio failure, which is what your entire case was really built around for not using the non-waas 430.
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Not at all - never said that. I appreciate your passion - good flying, peace be with you
 
My full IFR equipped C-150 had dual ILS/GS/VOR an ADF and marker beacons. I added a Mode C encoder when they made it necessary...

No HSI, no DME, no GPS. I flew it everywhere IFR at 90KIAS...

It would still be a great trainer today.
 
This guy actually turned off his GPS and went old school

 
Hi everyone, OP here. Thank you all for the help. I should clarify a few things. Number one is that I am buying and will be using this plane as a time builder for my commercial license hours, and hopefully for my IFR, if I end up upgrading my avionics. I am young for a pilot and have money to upgrade but am trying to be as economical as possible with this decision.
Number two is the question of approaches in my area. While my home airport is a small untowered field, there is a class delta 15 miles north from me that has these approaches: ILS, LOC, LOC/DME, RNAV (GPS), RNAV (RNP), VOR, VOR/DME.
While my training could be done on a single King KX-155 and VOR/GS CDI, I am starting to realize that a GPS unit is probably worth it. Right now I am thinking my best bet is a non-WAAS Garmin 430 and a VOR/GS CDI. The 430 will give me Nav/com/gps without needing more than one system. I could rip out the Apollo GX-65 and have the garmin as my single unit, thus alleviating the need for an audio panel and associated wiring.
I think a single nav/com/gps unit with a good CDI would suit my needs without spending an excessive amount of money, or buying old crappy systems. So with that said, does anyone have any good recommendations for something similar to a 430 that would suit my needs? I know WAAS would be a good thing to have, but I don’t think I can justify the extra cost considering the circumstances.
And as for having a single com unit that could fail, there is risk there but I always have a fully charged handheld radio (with headset adapter) in my flight bag. And I always use ForeFlight paired with a Sentry mini for ADS-B in as backups for the aircraft equipment.
Thank you for all of the help, and fly safe!

Sam
 
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IMO, this biggest factor is installation labor costs. The problem with this question is it often cost almost as much to install that old king Radio,CDI DME, Marker beacon as does to install a new Garmin 650 and CDI that does everything. As a result, only installing older used equipment usually makes any sense if you have an in for cheap installation, i.e. can do it yourself or have other options.

It sounds like you may have a low installation cost option so used equipment might make sense for your case.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
The IFR system is so GPS centric now (usable Victor Airways are getting sparser in the NE) that it really makes sense to get some sort of WAAS GPS. Train the way you will later fly. Managing the GPS box is a big part of flying IFR now. Learn it from the start. A GNX375 or one of the other limited Garmin GPS boxes are an option instead of a full GPS/NAV/COM. The 430 is already old tech, although still quite functional. I still have one that works.
 
Putting a 430 in anything these days seems crazy when there are modern GPS boxes that do the same thing, only better for more or less the same price.
 
I understand that the 430 is “old” tech at this point and the new garmin boxes are better. My biggest reason for considering the 430 is the nav/com/gps all in one box. That would make the wiring much less expensive and save me from buying expensive separate gps, nav, or com boxes.
 
I can understand wanting to keep the costs down as much as possible, and not investing in a plane you're going to sell, because you'll probably never get the money back in the avionics. But I agree with the others that a non-waas 430 is a minimum. If you can't swing at least that, then I'd leave the 150 as a VFR plane, use that for whatever time building you can VFR and simulated IFR with a safety pilot, and rent something else for the actual IFR training and checkride. Again, because I don't think you're going to get the money back on whatever avionics upgrades you do to the 150, unless you can get them swapped back out for free later, and sell them. Just my 2 cents...I know it's easy to spend other people's money.
 
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