IFR Approach Question

[poadeleted20]

I would guess that the only ones depicted are the ones within the lateral limits of the approach course.

Normally, all significant obstructions inside the usually-10-mile circle are depicted.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Normally, all significant obstructions inside the usually-10-mile circle are depicted.

I guess that 1154-foot obstacle isn't "significant" until you're 1200 feet low and 3 miles off course.

 

[AuntPeggy]

I guess that 1154-foot obstacle isn't "significant" until you're 1200 feet low and 3 miles off course.

S O P

 

[poadeleted20]

I guess that 1154-foot obstacle isn't "significant" until you're 1200 feet low and 3 miles off course.

I don't have time today to find the paragraph in TERPS which covers the criteria for putting obstructions on approach charts, but you can click on http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...ion=c.dspDocumentInformation&documentID=11698 and do it yourself.

 

[sanforce]

Hey guys, I know that I am way out of my league here being that I only have 12 hrs towards my PPL. However, I would like to learn from this so I never find myself in the situation.

So, the desired RNAV 9 Plate guides the pilot to fix YUKOK from the north or ZABLU from the south.

First question, why is the CONLY to YOKUK arrival listed, if it clearly isn't required? (i.e. you can come from the north east)

Second question, in IMC how much would you ideally want to stay above the 2500 minimum that is listed?

At SALIN (or before,) you are either cleared in RNAV GPS 09, or are put in a holding pattern. Next fix is APDAW, which is the final approach fix at an altitude of 2400 min.

Third question, what is the importance of the FAF?

What I'm thinking (correct me if I am wrong) is that the altitude stated for the FAF is not a minimum, but where you should ideally be. If you are a still pretty high at this point (say 1000 feet or so,) then you are coming in very steep and should call it a missed.

Next comes OTKAE, if you hit this point and don't see the runway are you supposed to go around?

Finally, I don't see an ILS NAV channel.

Can GPS autopilots fly the GS if there is not an ILS?

 

[jesse]

First question, why is the CONLY to YOKUK arrival listed, if it clearly isn't required? (i.e. you can come from the north east)

If you were coming in on V235, CONLY would be a logical point to depart the airway for the approach. It indicates that you can fly between CONLY to the IAF of YOKUK at 2500 feet. It's nice to be able to get down to 2500 feet. If you were coming from other points you wouldn't want to drop down that low without something guaranteeing you won't hit something.

It appears if you're heading northwest they don't want to trying to do a 180 back onto the airway...

Second question, in IMC how much would you ideally want to stay above the 2500 minimum that is listed?

You do not, do not, do not, do not go below a minimum altitude before you are permitted to do so on an IFR approach. It will kill you without warning.

At SALIN (or before,) you are either cleared in RNAV GPS 09, or are put in a holding pattern. Next fix is APDAW, which is the final approach fix at an altitude of 2400 min.

You should be cleared for the approach which will start at an initial approach fix. Once you're "on the approach" and "cleared" then you can descent as the approach permits.

If your initial approach fix is SALIN you are required to do the race-track procedure turn, unless you're permitted to do otherwise. If your initial approach fix is YOKUK or ZABLU you will not be flying the racetrack.

Next comes OTKAE, if you hit this point and don't see the runway are you supposed to go around?

You will be maintaining 2500 feet, no lower, until you reach SALIN. Once you've reached SALIN and your established on the course towards APDAW you can go down to 2400 feet. Once you cross APDAW, the final approach fix, you can go down to 1440.

Next comes OTKAE, if you hit this point and don't see the runway are you supposed to go around?

Once you cross OTKAE you can go down to 1260 feet. You then maintain 1260 feet, not a foot lower, until you reach RW09. If you do not have the runway then you go missed, left turning climb to 2500, direct SALIN, and hold.

Third question, what is the importance of the FAF?

Well, it signifies the final part of the approach. After this point things start to happen really fast. A lot of pilots use this point for doing things - such as dropping their landing gear.

What I'm thinking (correct me if I am wrong) is that the altitude stated for the FAF is not a minimum, but where you should ideally be. If you are a still pretty high at this point (say 1000 feet or so,) then you are coming in very steep and should call it a missed.

The altitude's on the chart are minimums. Generally you fly the minimum because the purpose is to land and you need to be low to break out of the clouds. You do NOT go below the minimums. If you were a thousand feet high, 3400 feet, at the FAF you probably are way behind the game. There is nothing to say you can't get down and still complete the approach but if one is that far behind going missed isn't always a bad idea. The problem in the IFR world is that going missed also involves work load and often increases stress.

Finally, I don't see an ILS NAV channel.

This is not an ILS approach. There is no ILS/VOR frequency. You need to fly it with a RNAV system, which is pretty much always an approach certified GPS these days.

Can GPS autopilots fly the GS if there is not an ILS?

This is a really complicated subject. It depends on teh type of GPS approach, the type of GPS, what is in the database, and what autopilot you have. Not worth really worrying about unless you've got one.

Instrument approaches aren't that *hard* - it's just a procedure that one must follow to land. The problem is that a minor comprehension mistake will kill you. Dead. I'm sure if I made a mistake on any of the above someone will let me know

 

[SteveinIndy]

You forgot the PoA forum where it would be dissected completely.

Not to mention in the local medical examiner's officer where you will be literally so.

The problem is that a minor comprehension mistake will kill you. Dead.

What's that old saying? Something to the effect of "Instrument flight is an unnatural act, punishable by death for those who are not cautious."

 

[poadeleted20]

First question, why is the CONLY to YOKUK arrival listed, if it clearly isn't required? (i.e. you can come from the north east)

It provides one option for a published transition route.

Second question, in IMC how much would you ideally want to stay above the 2500 minimum that is listed?

If it says 2500, then 2500 is sufficient. Going above 2500 may surprise the controller who is expecting you adhere to the published procedure.

Third question, what is the importance of the FAF?

Several things happen at the FAF. First, for all approaches, the obstruction clearance parameters change significantly from the preceding intermediate segment. Second, for GPS approaches, the GPS shifts into a tighter course width tolerance.

Next comes OTKAE, if you hit this point and don't see the runway are you supposed to go around?

The missed approach point (OTKAE) is where you start the missed if you haven't met the 91.175 criteria to continue the approach below MDA. Note that even if you see the runway just before the missed approach point, you may still have to execute the missed because you are too high/close to land using "normal maneuvers and a normal rate of descent." However, even if you've already decided to go missed, you don't start the turn off the final approach course until passing the MAP.

Finally, I don't see an ILS NAV channel.

That's because this isn't an ILS approach.

Can GPS autopilots fly the GS if there is not an ILS?

When coupled to a WAAS GPS, some autopilots can follow the vertical guidance provided by such GPS's on GPS approaches, but not all GPS's and not all autopilots can do this, and not all approaches will have this guidance available.

 

[ghogue]

The missed approach point (OTKAE) is where you start the missed if you haven't met the 91.175 criteria to continue the approach below MDA. Note that even if you see the runway just before the missed approach point, you may still have to execute the missed because you are too high/close to land using "normal maneuvers and a normal rate of descent." However, even if you've already decided to go missed, you don't start the turn off the final approach course until passing the MAP.

Ron,
Did you really mean to say that OTKAE was the missed approach point? Looks like a stepdown fix to me. I think the wording of sanforce's question caused you to think he was calling OTKAE the missed approach point.

gary

 

[poadeleted20]

Did you really mean to say that OTKAE was the missed approach point? Looks like a stepdown fix to me. I think the wording of sanforce's question caused you to think he was calling OTKAE the missed approach point.

Yes, I did. Sorry for the assumption, but I didn't go and pull up the chart. I forgot I was responding to a 12-hour Student Pilot who might not know the difference between a step-down fix and a MAP and assumed, and you know what that makes.

For sanforce: If OTKAE is a "step-down" fix, all it means is that you are authorized to continue to a lower altititude after you determine that you've passed it. You would then continue at the lower authorized MDA until you either reach the MAP or see the airport from a position allowing a safe landing.

 

[bbchien]

Not to mention in the local medical examiner's officer where you will be literally so.



What's that old saying? Something to the effect of "Instrument flight is an unnatural act, punishable by death for those who are not cautious."

As I published some time ago in Aviation Safety, "Improper IFR" is 90% fatal.

 

[DutchessFlier]

So...I just finished my stage 1 work (took a little longer due to WX issues) and moving on to stage 2. Not to steal the thread, but it seems like a good place to ask this: What's the best advice you all can give me entering the world of approaches, holds, arrivals and departures, etc.

Thanks

 

[Clark1961]

So...I just finished my stage 1 work (took a little longer due to WX issues) and moving on to stage 2. Not to steal the thread, but it seems like a good place to ask this: What's the best advice you all can give me entering the world of approaches, holds, arrivals and departures, etc.

Fly your heading (whatever it may be).

Hey, I don't know nothin' from nothin' but it seems that flying a selected heading (which accounts for winds) gets ya most of the way on any approach. When that NDB is kicking yer butt, just remind yourself to fly the heading and you'll be close.

In other words, don't do what I did and play "chase the needle" all the live long day.

 

[brcase]

Fly the heading on an NDB is good advice. if you know if should go left or right then adjust if you don't the fly the heading.

Practice with Tims VOR Simulator(search Google for it). Actually works pretty good on all approaches except GPS. It will really help you understand holds especially when the wind is blowing, but works good for approaches as well. It is simple and free.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[poadeleted20]

What's the best advice you all can give me entering the world of approaches, holds, arrivals and departures, etc.

Finding a good instructor with access to some sort of flight simulation device for procedural training before getting in the airplane.

 

[gismo]

So...I just finished my stage 1 work (took a little longer due to WX issues) and moving on to stage 2. Not to steal the thread, but it seems like a good place to ask this: What's the best advice you all can give me entering the world of approaches, holds, arrivals and departures, etc.

Thanks

Start with 3 or 4 local approaches and practice them on a PC and in the airplane until they become easy. For this you're mostly working on the mechanics of flying a particular type of approach. Once you feel comfortable with that, start briefing and flying as many different approaches as you have time for and access to. Here the emphasis should be on a proper briefing and ways to recognize and deal with the variations from one approach to another.

 

[poadeleted20]

Start with 3 or 4 local approaches and practice them on a PC and in the airplane until they become easy. For this you're mostly working on the mechanics of flying a particular type of approach.

Good advice -- for after your instructor has covered approaches with you. However, if you're about to start "Stage 2" of your instrument training, s/he probably hasn't covered this with you yet, and you would be risking teaching yourself inappropriate techniques or procedures if you try to do this on your own now. If you are going to practice something on your PC now, practice that which your instructor has already taught you, such as the basic instrument flying done in Stage 1, or, if it's included in Stage 1 of your syllabus, basic radio navigation (orientation, interception, and tracking drills).

 

[gismo]

Good advice -- for after your instructor has covered approaches with you. However, if you're about to start "Stage 2" of your instrument training, s/he probably hasn't covered this with you yet, and you would be risking teaching yourself inappropriate techniques or procedures if you try to do this on your own now. If you are going to practice something on your PC now, practice that which your instructor has already taught you, such as the basic instrument flying done in Stage 1, or, if it's included in Stage 1 of your syllabus, basic radio navigation (orientation, interception, and tracking drills).

Sorry, from the OP's question I was assuming that all this would be under the guidance of the CFII. I do agree that it would likely be counterproductive to try and "practice" approaches without a CFII at this point.

 

[jesse]

Sorry, from the OP's question I was assuming that all this would be under the guidance of the CFII. I do agree that it would likely be counterproductive to try and "practice" approaches without a CFII at this point.

I mostly just IM'd CFII's on the internet like Tony when I had questions about an approach during my instrument training. I probably X-Plane'd every approach in Nebraska.

Perhaps it was just me, but I could generally tell if I didn't understand the approach or how to fly the approach and was capable of asking the right resources for guidance when needed.

 

[sanforce]

Thanks for the clarification guys, I was a little confused at first but it's all clear now.

 

[DutchessFlier]

And continuing thanks from me as well...My training is under the guidance of a CFII amd alot of my work is in the plane, some in the Frasca, and some I work on at home in MSFS. I am still honing the basics, of course, but needed to get past the first stage and move on with these lessons. I guess the best thing is to not rush this along, and get pretty comfortable with each segment along the way. You know I will be back for more advice!