IFR ACS Study - Going Nuts

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
There has to be a better way...

I have passed the written (92) and on to the Practical. I am trying to map the ACS standards to source materials so I can have good answers for each one in the Oral.

Question: Has someone mapped ACS standards to various FAA publications, or simply mapped each requirement to the "answers"?

Example: IR.I.AK1 requires applicant to demonstrate "recordkeeping requirements". But it doesn't tell you where to go, except it could be in Part61, Publication FAA-H-8083-2 or FAA-H-8083-15. Of course, they don't make it simple by giving the NAME of these publications. Searching these takes forever to find the answers.

There MUST be a better way! Is there a product out there that just tells me the answers or tells me where to go to get the answers?
 
VWGhiaBob said:
There has to be a better way...

I have passed the written (92) and on to the Practical. I am trying to map the ACS standards to source materials so I can have good answers for each one in the Oral.

Question: Has someone mapped ACS standards to various FAA publications, or simply mapped each requirement to the "answers"?

Example: IR.I.AK1 requires applicant to demonstrate "recordkeeping requirements". But it doesn't tell you where to go, except it could be in Part61, Publication FAA-H-8083-2 or FAA-H-8083-15. Of course, they don't make it simple by giving the NAME of these publications. Searching these takes forever to find the answers.

There MUST be a better way! Is there a product out there that just tells me the answers or tells me where to go to get the answers?
Click to expand...

Have you looked at the ASA Oral Exam Guides.
 
I don't agree that Bob is overthinking it. I think it's a good idea. I tried to do it myself, because the FAA's references are to hundreds of pages per item, and that makes the references useless. Unfortunately, I found the job to be a lifetime's worth of work -- and if that's an exaggeration, it certainly would take more time than it's worth. Hence, the market for books like the ASA Oral Exam Guide. If the FAA actually has some particular item in mind when it provided the references, it should give us the item -- not just hundreds of pages in which the item is buried.
 
Lon33 said:
I don't agree that Bob is overthinking it. I think it's a good idea. I tried to do it myself, because the FAA's references are to hundreds of pages per item, and that makes the references useless. Unfortunately, I found the job to be a lifetime's worth of work -- and if that's an exaggeration, it certainly would take more time than it's worth. Hence, the market for books like the ASA Oral Exam Guide. If the FAA actually has some particular item in mind when it provided the references, it should give us the item -- not just hundreds of pages in which the item is buried.
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I'm not going to guess at the FAA's motivation, but if they gave the exact reference, guess what the applicant WOULDN'T know...anything not in those specific regs or paragraphs.

The object of the ACS/PTS is not to be a study outline. It's a testing outline. To use the OP's example of record keeping requirements, there are pilot logging requirements and airplane logging requirements. If you don't have any idea what those are, the ACS isn't where you should be spending your time just yet. You should be studying regs and FAA publications in general.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
...it could be in Part61, Publication FAA-H-8083-2 or FAA-H-8083-15. Of course, they don't make it simple by giving the NAME of these publications. Searching these takes forever to find the answers.

There MUST be a better way! Is there a product out there that just tells me the answers or tells me where to go to get the answers?
Click to expand...
Page A-20 contains a list of the publications and their associated FAA product code.

Secondly, you need to read each element of the ACS task in context. In terms of the one about "record keeping requirements," that is under Task A: Pilot Qualifications. The objective of the task is "To determine the applicant exhibits satisfactory knowledge, risk management, and skills associated with the requirements to act as PIC under instrument flight rules." The full element is "Certification requirements, recency of experience, and record keeping." Keeping all three of those things in mind, it becomes clear that this section is specifically talking about record keeping requirements as they pertain to your legality to act as PIC under IFR. Therefore it's asking you to be familiar with the instrument currency requirements of Part 61.
 
Lon33 said:
I don't agree that Bob is overthinking it. I think it's a good idea. I tried to do it myself, because the FAA's references are to hundreds of pages per item, and that makes the references useless. Unfortunately, I found the job to be a lifetime's worth of work -- and if that's an exaggeration, it certainly would take more time than it's worth. Hence, the market for books like the ASA Oral Exam Guide. If the FAA actually has some particular item in mind when it provided the references, it should give us the item -- not just hundreds of pages in which the item is buried.
Click to expand...

Right... They should give us the spoonfed answer. Rather than learning all the relevant context material and finding the answer within. I deal way too much with adult education with folks who dont want to get the big picture, and only want to be taught the test so they can move on. Makes for a poorly prepared person after the test.
 
Update from the OP: I contacted ASA about this very subject 6 months ago, and they said a succinct summary was a great idea, needed, and they would work on it. Now, it looks like they have done it. Thanks for pointing this out, Clip4. My book is on the way and I'm buying the download also.

I do get the need to understand "context". However, the FAR / AIM weighs in at several pounds, and when I read it, I skip 90% of it to find the nuggets I really need.

I'm not asking for someone to just spoon feed me what to memorize. I LOVE studying all things aviation. But there needs to be more balance here. Thank goodness ASA is stepping up.
 
Final Update from the OP...the ASA book rocks! (It's here: http://www.asa2fly.com/Oral-Exam-Guide-Instrument-Pilot-P3815C25.aspx)

Thanks again to Clip4.

Here's a sample...exactly what we need...a succinct answer with a reference to the FAA source so we can read and study for context!

4. What are the fuel requirements for flight in IFR conditions? (14 CFR 91.167)
The aircraft must carry enough fuel (considering weather reports, forecasts and weather conditions) to complete the flight to the first airport of intended landing, fly from that airport to the alternate airport, and fly after that for 45 minutes at normal cruising speed.
Note: “Complete the flight,” as used in this regulation, means the aircraft has enough fuel to be flown to, and land at, the first airport of intended landing. Having fueled the aircraft with only enough fuel to “attempt an approach” would fall short of the regulatory requirement (FAA legal interpretation).
 
Walboy said:
The learning and studying doesn't end at the checkride. It's amazing how much rules, procedures, technology has changed since I got my rating. I agree with the posters who say it's important to get the big picture. ASA probably isn't going to publish a "fill in the gaps" study guide.
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I agree...no they won't. They fulfill a critical role though...helping find what's important. Others...Rod Machado, Dick Rutan, and books like Stick And Rudder help with the rest...and our fellow pilots...and this website. It takes (a big) village.

All good!
 
Walboy said:
The learning and studying doesn't end at the checkride. It's amazing how much rules, procedures, technology has changed since I got my rating. I agree with the posters who say it's important to get the big picture. ASA probably isn't going to publish a "fill in the gaps" study guide.
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As long as applicants figure rote is all they need, there will be ASA.
 
MauleSkinner said:
As long as applicants figure rote is all they need, there will be ASA.
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What else would you like applicants to know about instrument currency? Some Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey buried in the reg somewhere?

There's stuff ASA is good for, and stuff ASA isn't good for, and the OP clearly said that.
 
denverpilot said:
What else would you like applicants to know about instrument currency? Some Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey buried in the reg somewhere?

There's stuff ASA is good for, and stuff ASA isn't good for, and the OP clearly said that.
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Is ASA going to address the regs immediately before and after those currency requirements? Not in the case of instrument currency requirements. Does an instrument pilot need to know them? Yes. Can they be asked on an oral? Yes.

If you want your students to be spoon fed limited information, go for it.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Is ASA going to address the regs immediately before and after those currency requirements? Not in the case of instrument currency requirements. Does an instrument pilot need to know them? Yes. Can they be asked on an oral? Yes.

If you want your students to be spoon fed limited information, go for it.
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Yawn. Most students will read the whole section once they can FIND it, which was the OP's complaint about the ACS guidance.

Try to notice the question posed at least.
 
The FAA can't segregate the essential from the trivial - the guys who "own" the trivial don't think it is, and the guys who own the essential know it is.

You passed the written, probably know the relevant stuff to a sufficient depth, and the goofy ACS itself is clue enough to the oral. Best guess is 1/3 of the verbiage you'd wade through is either useless, or so obscure/infrequently used that it will bear not one whit on your IFR flying. Or, it doesn't need to be in your memory - just in a place where you can look it up on demand.
 
denverpilot said:
Most students will read the whole section once they can FIND it.
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That hasn't been my experience with most people. Go two regs before the instrument currency requirements and you'd find one that I've had to disqualify quite a bit of flight time from ATP applicants' logbooks over simply because they don't know it exists.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
That hasn't been my experience with most people. Go two regs before the instrument currency requirements and you'd find one that I've had to disqualify quite a bit of flight time from ATP applicants' logbooks over simply because they don't know it exists.
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Fair enough -- but nobody's capable of memorizing the regs in their modern form either. Not just by reading them straight through. Way too many of them. And the OP isn't an ATP candidate.

You can't really dump a modern FAR/AIM in someone's lap and say "study" and expect a decent knowledge training result. That said, that's often what happens. Then you get unprepared candidates.

Commercial companies attempting to make some sense of them via some organization and outlines seems relatively sane. Every other industry has this.

In fact, one of the larger complaints about the ACS creation "committee" is that it was overloaded with commercial training company representatives and aviation colleges who directly benefit from it being as obtuse and unclear as possible. Sell more books and videos.

Which again, isn't my assertion, just mentioning it for completeness.

The PTS was succinct. The ACS is pretty messy in comparison. The OP isn't wrong there.

(The CFI ACS should be quite entertaining. Might need half a forest to print that thing once it's out.)

For the OP... the ASA stuff kinda primes the study pump and gets you over feeling overwhelmed by the six pound book. You still had better plan to read 61 and 91 cover to cover and make notes and mark it up in whatever ways helps you find stuff. Then schedule some ground time with your CFI or a ground instructor to quiz you on it.
 
denverpilot said:
Fair enough -- but nobody's capable of memorizing the regs in their modern form either. Not just by reading them straight through. Way too many of them. And the OP isn't an ATP candidate.
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nobody's asking anybody to memorize regs. What an instrument rated pilot can and can't do isn't limited to whether or not they're ever going to get their ATP.
You can't really dump a modern FAR/AIM in someone's lap and say "study" and expect a decent knowledge training result. That said, that's often what happens. Then you get unprepared candidates.
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true...far too many CFIs screw that up. Including the ones who use "get the ASA guide" as their study guidance.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
true...far too many CFIs f that up. Including the ones who use "get the ASA guide" as their study guidance.
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No argument there. I don't think Clip4 is a CFI. He gave the OP a hint as to one tool for the toolbag.

A CFI saying that in person would say, "If you're having trouble, the ASA Guide is a reasonable place to start studying for an oral, since it's an aid in organizing it. There's others also if it doesn't work for you. Some people like videos. But ultimately you'll have to open that book there with a highlighter or a pen and read it. How about the next time we meet, we do a little ground review of the regulations surrounding currency and we'll focus on Instrument currency. Be prepared to discuss all the ways you need to be current to fly an instrument flight. That's your homework. Once we review I have some notes I can send you or print off for you that cover that also. You did good on that last ILS today. Well within standards."

(End with praise. Even if all you can say is "You did a great job finding the aircraft on the ramp and didn't trip walking out to it.")

And of course a good CFI never stops teaching. They're paying to be taught.

Any conversation can be a quiz to see where the candidate is at, and highlight for them what they don't know yet.

The art of continuous quizzing is probably the best thing my instructors taught me without saying so. Often students will say things that can lead right straight to a mini-quiz without much need to prompt.

I still remember when I brought up an aviation OWT with one of my instructors. I said, "What do you think of this phrase people say...?"

His immediate and strong reaction of "NO!" and then the half hour discussion of it, including to never ever ever say that stupid phrase around a multi-engine student ever, will always be with me. I hit a pet peeve and an accurate one.

Didn't even know I was going to step on that land mine. But damn glad I did.

I bet you or the assembled peanut gallery can guess what it was. There's a few. I'll post it later.
 
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