"if you like your doctor we don't give a ****."

Actually I said everyone pays the same or close to the same...but no doubt my error.



No I didn't say the penalty doesn't apply what I have said is that the ACA does not give the IRS any other enforcement means other than taking it out of your refund...


"Close to the same" and "3 times the price" -- those are your words. Which is it? It can't be both.

There is nothing "close to the same" about a 300% increase in price between two people for the same product.

It doesn't matter what the ACA says. IRS will take anyone to court who decides to try that and win. Seen the makeup of SCOTUS and their willingness to make up law that isn't written, lately?

Believe what you like. Anyone trying to get out of paying is not going to be allowed to do so.

They'll pay orders of magnitude more than the penalty in legal fees up against a phalanx of expensive government lawyers that their taxes also pay for (that they didn't pay, yet).

Taxes backing the massive loans that give the phalanx their pay checks.

No way in hell IRS buys the "letter of the law" thing. They'll just assess the penalties going forward and the amount will be ever growing until the person has to relent and pay them or have assets seized.
 
"Close to the same" and "3 times the price" -- those are your words. Which is it? It can't be both.

There is nothing "close to the same" about a 300% increase in price between two people for the same product.

It doesn't matter what the ACA says. IRS will take anyone to court who decides to try that and win. Seen the makeup of SCOTUS and their willingness to make up law that isn't written, lately?

Believe what you like. Anyone trying to get out of paying is not going to be allowed to do so.

They'll pay orders of magnitude more than the penalty in legal fees up against a phalanx of expensive government lawyers that their taxes also pay for (that they didn't pay, yet).

Taxes backing the massive loans that give the phalanx their pay checks.

No way in hell IRS buys the "letter of the law" thing. They'll just assess the penalties going forward and the amount will be ever growing until the person has to relent and pay them or have assets seized.

I already admiited it was an error...sheesh.

It doesn't matter what the law says?

https://www.healthcare.gov/fees/fee-for-not-being-covered/

The IRS will hold back the amount of the fee from any future tax refunds. There are no liens, levies, or criminal penalties for failing to pay the fee.
 
Life expectancy, infant mortality, etc can be facts.

You'd think, but unfortunately for the statistical comparisons different countries tabulate the data differently.

What should be an easy straight comparison is anything but.
 
I would hope that someone with a firearm on their person in a public place would absolutely be liable for damages caused by the accidental discharge of the weapon. I don't know how that would transfer to the owner if the person in possession was not the owner.


Why hope? It absolutely would be. Nothing in our laws protects anyone from being sued for damages arising from firearm discharges other than those working for government.

They're the special kids on the playground. Mostly because politicians wouldn't want to pay them what Doctors and others who's job roles include deadly consequences are normally paid by society so they can afford liability insurance or they wouldn't go into that business.

Same thing with crashing airplanes, throwing rocks, smacking things with baseball bats...

Families of criminals sue people who shot their "darling boy or girl who didn't deserve to die for holding up that liquor store with a gun", all the time in Civil court. Has no relationship to whether criminal charges are filed or not.

No "hope" about it. You're liable for what you do with it. Whack the idiot over the head with a broomstick, you'll probably be sued for his medical bills then, too.
 
Why hope? It absolutely would be. Nothing in our laws protects anyone from being sued for damages arising from firearm discharges other than those working for government.

They're the special kids on the playground. Mostly because politicians wouldn't want to pay them what Doctors and others who's job roles include deadly consequences are normally paid by society so they can afford liability insurance or they wouldn't go into that business.

Same thing with crashing airplanes, throwing rocks, smacking things with baseball bats...

Families of criminals sue people who shot their "darling boy or girl who didn't deserve to die for holding up that liquor store with a gun", all the time in Civil court. Has no relationship to whether criminal charges are filed or not.

No "hope" about it. You're liable for what you do with it. Whack the idiot over the head with a broomstick, you'll probably be sued for his medical bills then, too.

I was being a little sarcastic. Guess it didn't translate.

The question is whether or not he owner would be liable, if the gun was in possession of another with or without permission. And if it were stolen, what the standard of reasonable care should the owner have taken to prevent theft for them to be immune from liability.
 
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Young people didn't buy that insurance because they didn't want to, not because it was unaffordable.

^This.

I didn't have insurance in my 20's, even when I worked full time for an employer; most of it was self-employed. I went to a doctor once or at worst twice every two years for antibiotics for strep throat. The doctors visit and medicine cost less than one month of my share of the insurance premiums. Easy math decision.

Later I found out about "major medical" and I bought that. I didn't have full medical insurance until I was married.
 
All the hospitals around me are non-profit, and the Drs get paid quite well.


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No -profit is a misnomer. What they really are is no -taxed. They do in fact have profits if well run.
 
AFAIK, liability for injury caused by firearms doesn't arise from ownership as it does for motor vehicles. But the real issue is owning a firearm is a right, whereas driving on public thoroughfares is a priveledge.

I would hope that someone with a firearm on their person in a public place would absolutely be liable for damages caused by the accidental discharge of the weapon. I don't know how that would transfer to the owner if the person in possession was not the owner.

As it is, I believe most homeowners policies cover firearms accidents, at least on premisis. I know coverage is available through the NRA and specialty insurors for concealed carry. Not at all expensive.
Just because something is a right doesn't relieve liability. You have a first amendment right to say what you want, but that doesn't relieve you from liability if you slander someone when exercising that right.

Liability may arise - the Chicago case involving the gun dealer broke new ground. IANAL, and I don't know case law, but I can see a situation where liability might arise as the Chicago case did.
 
Just because something is a right doesn't relieve liability. You have a first amendment right to say what you want, but that doesn't relieve you from liability if you slander someone when exercising that right.

Liability may arise - the Chicago case involving the gun dealer broke new ground. IANAL, and I don't know case law, but I can see a situation where liability might arise as the Chicago case did.

Not suggesting that "by right" absolves liability. However, to use the example of water, a farmer has the use of water on his property for AG purposes "by right", and therefore doesn't have to apply for permit to drill a new well, vs. a homeowner or developer of homes who must apply for and be granted a permit. Or another example is a farmer may operate a tractor on public roadways "by right" without having license, registration or insurance where a passenger motor vehicle may not. But if the farmer causes an accident, he is just as liable as anyone else.

You have the right to own a firearm to protect your property and possessions in your residence. You need not apply for the priveledge. Yet, anyway.

I also see where the Sandy Hook mother's estate went to victims families, but that may be because her son was a minor and as such she was responsible for his actions.
 
Not suggesting that "by right" absolves liability. However, to use the example of water, a farmer has the use of water on his property for AG purposes "by right", and therefore doesn't have to apply for permit to drill a new well, vs. a homeowner or developer of homes who must apply for and be granted a permit. Or another example is a farmer may operate a tractor on public roadways "by right" without having license, registration or insurance where a passenger motor vehicle may not. But if the farmer causes an accident, he is just as liable as anyone else.

You have the right to own a firearm to protect your property and possessions in your residence. You need not apply for the priveledge. Yet, anyway.

I also see where the Sandy Hook mother's estate went to victims families, but that may be because her son was a minor and as such she was responsible for his actions.


That "right" must vary by state.....

On my ranch in Wyoming,I have numerous springs that flow year round and drain into Beaver Creek, which is a tributary of the Green river, which is the head waters of the mighty Colorado river..
I have deeded ( surface water rights) from those springs, and any other stream that historically flows through my property..

To drill a well, I need to petition the state Engineer for (ground water rights) before I can drill......

So.... Rights can take various avenues....:rolleyes:
 
Not suggesting that "by right" absolves liability. However, to use the example of water, a farmer has the use of water on his property for AG purposes "by right", and therefore doesn't have to apply for permit to drill a new well, vs. a homeowner or developer of homes who must apply for and be granted a permit. Or another example is a farmer may operate a tractor on public roadways "by right" without having license, registration or insurance where a passenger motor vehicle may not. But if the farmer causes an accident, he is just as liable as anyone else.

You have the right to own a firearm to protect your property and possessions in your residence. You need not apply for the priveledge. Yet, anyway.

I also see where the Sandy Hook mother's estate went to victims families, but that may be because her son was a minor and as such she was responsible for his actions.

Water rights vary by state. In Texas, the Edwards aquifer has limits on pumping for any purpose.
 
I was being a little sarcastic. Guess it didn't translate.



The question is whether or not he owner would be liable, if the gun was in possession of another with or without permission. And if it were stolen, what the standard of reasonable care should the owner have taken to prevent theft for them to be immune from liability.


I'm not liable if my car is stolen and used to commit a crime, nor my airplane. Why would there be any different standard for firearms?

What is an airline's liability when they allow an airliner to be stolen and crashed into a building?

Of course that doesn't mean someone won't sue anyway in all of those scenarios and get a sealed out of court settlement. Nobody wants anyone to know what the liability really is in hard numbers, outside of a limited circle of folks allowed to read the sealed documents.

The Columbine parents settled under a sealed deal. There was some sort of "Justice" doled out, but you're not allowed to know the actual dollar amount.

More interestingly, what made it the government's job to handle airline's passenger screening and security for them at great cost to everyone who doesn't use their product? It's only billions a year in loans backed by nothing. No big deal.

There's no good answer to your question under our liability laws because we change them at the public's whim. They aren't consistent across products or actions. If they were you'd file the paperwork to pay it with a bureaucrat and never see the inside of a courtroom. Not good for attorneys.

Liability is generally whatever an attorney can successfully argue for or against, unless someone is given specific free reign like government employees -- who generally have no personal liability for their actions in most scenarios.

Probably one of the biggest mistakes we've ever allowed into our law books. But we do so love voting for card carrying members of the ABA apparently.

You get as much "justice" as you can afford under our system of law. People don't like to admit that, but it's true more often than it isn't.

Hire a brilliant attorney, you'll almost always have a better outcome than hiring a weak minded one. You'll probably be bankrupted either way, it's just a matter of how bankrupt.

I'm sure there are lawyers and actuaries that know exactly what a shooting is worth in real dollars. It's not for you to know, according to them. Judges play along and seal the records. Probably because you're really not worth that much and you'd be shocked at how little your life is worth on the open market.
 
I'm not liable if my car is stolen and used to commit a crime, nor my airplane. Why would there be any different standard for firearms?

What is an airline's liability when they allow an airliner to be stolen and crashed into a building?

Of course that doesn't mean someone won't sue anyway in all of those scenarios and get a sealed out of court settlement. Nobody wants anyone to know what the liability really is in hard numbers, outside of a limited circle of folks allowed to read the sealed documents.

The Columbine parents settled under a sealed deal. There was some sort of "Justice" doled out, but you're not allowed to know the actual dollar amount.

More interestingly, what made it the government's job to handle airline's passenger screening and security for them at great cost to everyone who doesn't use their product? It's only billions a year in loans backed by nothing. No big deal.

There's no good answer to your question under our liability laws because we change them at the public's whim. They aren't consistent across products or actions. If they were you'd file the paperwork to pay it with a bureaucrat and never see the inside of a courtroom. Not good for attorneys.

Liability is generally whatever an attorney can successfully argue for or against, unless someone is given specific free reign like government employees -- who generally have no personal liability for their actions in most scenarios.

Probably one of the biggest mistakes we've ever allowed into our law books. But we do so love voting for card carrying members of the ABA apparently.

You get as much "justice" as you can afford under our system of law. People don't like to admit that, but it's true more often than it isn't.

Hire a brilliant attorney, you'll almost always have a better outcome than hiring a weak minded one. You'll probably be bankrupted either way, it's just a matter of how bankrupt.

I'm sure there are lawyers and actuaries that know exactly what a shooting is worth in real dollars. It's not for you to know, according to them. Judges play along and seal the records. Probably because you're really not worth that much and you'd be shocked at how little your life is worth on the open market.

Not a secret settlement in Sandy Hook. It was published today that the victims families split the mothers $1.5 million estate , ostensibly because she failed to secure the weapon. If there were damages covered by insurance beyond that, I don't know.

You have a valid argument if the stolen car, airplane or gun is used intentionally by third person in the commission of a crime. But what if the gun is left in plain sight in an unlocked car, and a child or other person takes it and discharges it unintentionally and injures or kills someone? What if you leave the car unlocked with the keys in the ignition in a schoolyard or known high-crime area and someone is injured because you did not reasonably secure it? I'm not so sure, lacking an intentional illegal act, that the owner could not be held liable under some theory of negligence.
 
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You're probably right. Filing the lawsuit is just an announcement to come to the shotgun wedding of public opinion and lawyer's negotiation skills on any particular day.
 
It doesn't matter if you are "liable" or not, because even if someone files a suit with no substance, it isn't going away by itself. It costs a lot, getting them dismissed. Not to mention the months and months of aggravation while the lawyers rack up their fees.
 
It doesn't matter if you are "liable" or not, because even if someone files a suit with no substance, it isn't going away by itself. It costs a lot, getting them dismissed. Not to mention the months and months of aggravation while the lawyers rack up their fees.


That is why you carry liability insurance.


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Interesting paradox, or "pair of docs".....

--------------**************~~~~~~~~~>>>>>>>

New York Times: “In state after state, a gulf is opening between Republican governors willing to expand Medicaid coverage through the Affordable Care Act and Republican members of Congress convinced the law is collapsing and determined to help it fail. In recent months, insurers have increased premiums and deductibles for many policies sold online, and a dozen nonprofit insurance co-ops are shutting down, forcing consumers to seek other coverage.”

“But in Arizona, Arkansas, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, Nevada and Ohio, Republican governors have expanded Medicaid under the health care law or defended past expansions. In South Dakota, Tennessee and Utah, Republican governors are pressing for wider Medicaid coverage. And Republican governors in a few other states, including Alabama, have indicated that they are looking anew at their options after rejecting the idea in the past.”
 
Interesting paradox, or "pair of docs".....

--------------**************~~~~~~~~~>>>>>>>

New York Times: “In state after state, a gulf is opening between Republican governors willing to expand Medicaid coverage through the Affordable Care Act and Republican members of Congress convinced the law is collapsing and determined to help it fail. In recent months, insurers have increased premiums and deductibles for many policies sold online, and a dozen nonprofit insurance co-ops are shutting down, forcing consumers to seek other coverage.”

“But in Arizona, Arkansas, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, Nevada and Ohio, Republican governors have expanded Medicaid under the health care law or defended past expansions. In South Dakota, Tennessee and Utah, Republican governors are pressing for wider Medicaid coverage. And Republican governors in a few other states, including Alabama, have indicated that they are looking anew at their options after rejecting the idea in the past.”


Add Wyoming to that list...
 
Interesting paradox, or "pair of docs".....

--------------**************~~~~~~~~~>>>>>>>

New York Times: “In state after state, a gulf is opening between Republican governors willing to expand Medicaid coverage through the Affordable Care Act and Republican members of Congress convinced the law is collapsing and determined to help it fail. In recent months, insurers have increased premiums and deductibles for many policies sold online, and a dozen nonprofit insurance co-ops are shutting down, forcing consumers to seek other coverage.”

“But in Arizona, Arkansas, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, Nevada and Ohio, Republican governors have expanded Medicaid under the health care law or defended past expansions. In South Dakota, Tennessee and Utah, Republican governors are pressing for wider Medicaid coverage. And Republican governors in a few other states, including Alabama, have indicated that they are looking anew at their options after rejecting the idea in the past.”


Engineered to fail. Nothing new to see here.
 
Except it is not.....

Quite the conundrum.....

Depends what you consider failure to be. It's not doing what proponents said it would do, in that sense it's failing. If you believe the true intention was to destroy US health care, paving the way for a single-payer health care system, then it's succeeding.
 
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Depends what you consider failure to be. It's not doing what proponents said it would do, in that sense it's failing. If you believe the true intention was to destroy US health care, paving the way for a single-payer health care system, then it's succeeding.


Exactly. The young and healthy are saying FU and aren't buying the unaffordable policies, which was part of the foundation for the pyramid scheme.
 
Exactly. The young and healthy are saying FU and aren't buying the unaffordable policies, which was part of the foundation for the pyramid scheme.


Do you have a credible link to that claim?


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Depends what you consider failure to be. It's not doing what proponents said it would do, in that sense it's failing. If you believe the true intention was to destroy US health care, paving the way for a single-payer health care system, then it's succeeding.


Wasn't it designed put more people on healthcare insurance?

For that metric, how is it doing?


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Do you have a credible link to that claim?


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Is Forbes credible enough, or would it have to come from healthcare.gov to be believable to you?

"With the cost of coverage skyrocketing, it’s no wonder that enrollment has lagged the Obama Administration’s goals.

"One-fifth of those whom the Administration has counted as “enrolled”, don’t appear to have paid their premiums. So they don’t actually have coverage.

"Further, despite millions of dollars in advertisements, endless stumping by the president, and promotion by the likes of NBA stars Kobe Bryant and LeBron James, the exchanges have failed to attract anywhere near enough young people."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2014/03/24/four-years-of-obamacare-failures-is-long-enough/
 
Is Forbes credible enough, or would it have to come from healthcare.gov to be believable to you?


Let's see...... An OPINION piece by Sally Pipes, a GOP activist does not seem like a credible source....

Let's look at the other "credible" opinion pieces Sally Pipes writes....

105d0845529e9925be8f28b1c8468776.jpg


How about a real source for data to your claim, and less partisan "opinion"?
 
Wasn't it designed put more people on healthcare insurance?

We don't know the true intent of the designers. As it was sold it was supposed to make health care more affordable but it has done the opposite.

For that metric, how is it doing?
Unknown. But if that had been the sole intent Obamacare would have been one page instead of the weighty tome that it is. Simply force all health care providers to cover children until age 26 and require everyone to purchase a health care plan.
 
We don't know the true intent of the designers. As it was sold it was supposed to make health care more affordable but it has done the opposite.

Unknown. But if that had been the sole intent Obamacare would have been one page instead of the weighty tome that it is. Simply force all health care providers to cover children until age 26 and require everyone to purchase a health care plan.



Well, if the intent was to get more people with health insurance, wouldn't you agree that it has been a success?

And, have you ever been involved in the legislative process? Or sought the opinion of an Attorney General on proposed legislation? One page bills are only possible on talk radio and GOP presidential debates.



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Well, if the intent was to get more people with health insurance, wouldn't you agree that it has been a success?

Yes, if the intent had been to get more people with health insurance then I would agree it has been a success.

And, have you ever been involved in the legislative process?
No.

Or sought the opinion of an Attorney General on proposed legislation?
No.

One page bills are only possible on talk radio and GOP presidential debates.
Wrong.
 
Well, if the intent was to get more people with health insurance, wouldn't you agree that it has been a success?

well, if the bar is so low that adding just one more person would be considered success....
 
well, if the bar is so low that adding just one more person would be considered success....


To that 1 person??? Likely a huge success.


What if the bar was adding millions? Do you think it was a success then?


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Yes, if the intent had been to get more people with health insurance then I would agree it has been a success.

No.

No.

Wrong.



Agreed, it hasn't failed in the task of getting more people to take responsibility for getting insurance.


As for the 1-pager, (or even a 4-pager), could you point me to the link for Carly Fiorinas proposed tax code that she trumpets in GOP debates?


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To that 1 person??? Likely a huge success.


What if the bar was adding millions? Do you think it was a success then?


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Maybe the should have named the bill the "get more people a yearly physical" because with those deductibles that's about all most people are getting.

So the goals

more insured...you got that but

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/10/obamacare-enrollment_n_6132996.html

Would reduce premiums $2500...bwahahaha

healthcare would be affordable....have you seen the deductibles?

Like your plan/keep your plan - well you know that answer.

Now do you want to talk about the cost? Where do we start? The crappy website...remember that the Unicorn King didn't know it didn't work...until it didn't work. Or how about all of those co-ops that got fronted all that money and how many are shut down or being shut down.

ER usage would go down, but that never materialized in Mass under Romneycare and Mass has more docs per capita than any state in the union, haven't seen a study on this for Ocare yet though.
 
To that 1 person??? Likely a huge success.

Why? That 1 person may now be paying more for health insurance than he would have paid for health care out of pocket.

What if the bar was adding millions? Do you think it was a success then?

The number does not matter. If the intent had been a net increase in the number of people covered by health insurance and the result is a net increase in the number of people covered by health insurance then it would have been a success.
 
"success" ... but at what cost?

Or do people not care about cost?
 
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