If I hadn't done something we would be dead

LongRoadBob said:
good point, but even so don’t you think he should have gotten a debrief where the instructor told him exactly what he did to get to that point? Just in the interest of educating him? Maybe it isn’t his job, I don’t know, but it is information that would be useful for him, no?
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I think he did get a debrief but he said he didn't remember most of it because he was "about to throw up". So he should probably go back and ask again, it is absolutely the check instructor's job to debrief, and it sounds like he did.

I think there are a few lessons the op can take from this. I've covered the go around. Another lesson is if you are PIC, you can never, ever, never give up. You can't shut down, as a very good instructor told me many times while I was learning, "Paul, you need to shake it off, and keep flying, stay in the game." That include debriefs, forget feeling bad about yourself, and work to fix the problems. I think the OP is very close, and actually it can be a good thing that he had this setback. Now he can learn.

It's really easy to lulled into thinking this flying stuff is easy, especially now with YouTube pilots producing videos. Most, not all, but most of the videos only show the good stuff when things go well. Also, my favorite video producers are really good pilots that make it look easy. It's not always easy, and you can't quit as PIC.

From what the OP has written I think his instructor and this check guy are fine, he should stick with them in my opinion. Breaking in a new instructor always takes time, keep that in mind.
 
I did my first solo yesterday. I had 9.5 hours when my CFI jumped out and told me to go do 5 touch and goes. But it doesn’t matter if you have 9 hours or 90 hours. For me it was about that moment when it “clicked”. My first five hours consisted of some pretty crappy landings. Bouncing, floating, too shallow etc. it clicked when I stopped chasing the airplane and made smoother inputs. Pulling back gently on the yoke during the flare and understanding that I wanted to keep the airplane off the tarmac until it was ready to land. Trying to hit the same markers over and over. Altitude, flaps, speed, base to final turn points. The more you try to be consistent, the easier it will get. My CFI still says I’m shallow on final and I will continue to work on that.

As for your guy saying you woulda died....not sure that’s the right tactic to take with a student. Maybe there’s a better fit out there for you. Good luck and keep at it. It will click for you.
 
PaulS said:
I disagree with this last statement. You are most certainly paying them to judge you and you are paying them to make sure you are safe. As I said before, I gave my primary instructor a run for his money years ago, but never did he have a hard landing saving me.
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Actually, I standby the statement that an instructor should not be judging. Instead he should be evaluating and providing constructive feedback. Saying "we would be dead" is a judgement, a personal attack, and a negative feedback. The fact that the student is posting here wondering if he should give up flying proves my point.
 
sarangan said:
Actually, I standby the statement that an instructor should not be judging. Instead he should be evaluating and providing constructive feedback. Saying "we would be dead" is a judgement, a personal attack, and a negative feedback. The fact that the student is posting here wondering if he should give up flying proves my point.
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Well, we disagree on the judgement part, and actually an instructor is always judging, it's his/her job. The "we would be dead" was probably too strong, mostly evident because the OP said he was debriefed but only remembered that comment. So that was a judgement, a harsh one at that, probably uncalled for, and it was negative feed back, but getting "negative feedback" is part of the game, you can't learn if you are too sensitive to hear what you did wrong. The personal attack, ah no, from what the op described, that does not constitute a personal attack, we can't be cupcakes. Some times we need to suck it up, admit we made a mistake and move on.


The OP hasn't returned, so hopefully he is over this and has been flying again.
 
Did the CFI ever explain to the OP what he was doing wrong?
 
Sounds like his comment caught you off guard and shut your brain down for further conversation. I'd wager it wasn't the comment itself that did this but also the fact that you were likely already stressed from the fact that he took the controls and completed the landing. I'd go back to him or even email him asking for some feedback on what you did right, wrong, and what you should look out for in the future. He'll probably appreciate that your asking when you've had time to let your brain relax.

We all make mistakes. Don't beat yourself up too bad, just remember the lessons you've learned as you go through this. I'm newly minted myself and still carrying around the paper copy f my certificate so not a pro by any means. I just try to focus on the important things when I'm up flying and really focus on the process for landing when I have my family with me. I don't want to scare them from never going back up.
 
Meh. I’ve tried to kill a couple instructors. So far haven’t. But I’m only 43 and still working on ratings.
since you don’t really remember a lot of details it tells me that you probably locked up-looking for your aim point and stopped flying the airplane. It’s easy to do.
My first instructor used to curse at me in Finnish and English-a lot. I got over it and got better.
I think if you go back and talk to them they’ll review it a bit better. You mind blanks a lot when you are in a bit of shock- they might’ve already reviewed more then you think. you’ll laugh about this in 100 hours.
 
chemgeek said:
....

The day I soloed I was surprised the instructor was going to let me go without him. I didn't go into that day thinking "this will be the day if I do certain things." That's probably how it should be. My solo landings that day were utterly routine. And I had worn a nice shirt. :(
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That was EXACTLY my experience. My CFI even sort of sheepishly asked me if it was OK if he cut my shirt. I said, "SURE!" thinking I'd get to keep the scrap and put it up in my home office. He kept the scrap.. I got the ruined shirt. ;)
 
MuseChaser said:
That was EXACTLY my experience. My CFI even sort of sheepishly asked me if it was OK if he cut my shirt. I said, "SURE!" thinking I'd get to keep the scrap and put it up in my home office. He kept the scrap.. I got the ruined shirt. ;)
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I had the same situation, instructor did tell me the lesson before that I was close and to stop wearing good shirts. Next lesson he jumped out of the airplane on the taxi way in Sanford ME and told me to do 2 touch and goes and a full stop. The wind picked up on the second landing and turned into a crosswind, so it got more interesting, but it was fun. He cut my shirt, I ended up getting the cut piece that he wrote the date and location of my first solo on. I still have it.
 
My primary instructor apparently didn't cut shirts. I didn't find out about the practice until later. I would not have been impressed if he had tried to cut mine without warning.
 
Nervous Nellie instructors are a detriment to learning. The airport a I learned at was a 2700’ grass runway with High Tension wires 1/2mile or so on the approach to runway 27...I got too low turning base to final once and my instructor crossed his arms and said, “ wow, those wires are gonna make a mess of this plane when we hit them!” ... Now that’s a cool headed instructor! The best kind...
 
I had a twin of your Chief DPE do my pre solo check as well. Needed to be the smartest guy, well, on the planet. For him and your guy to say that in front of your CFI and not to you one on one is his ego, period. Maybe you need some more practice landing, setting up.... OK. But he is what my CFI refers to as a "drama king". So, I got some more hours with the CFI, and found another guy to do the pre solo check - you know, "just to get a different point of view". Well low and behold, I "improved" remarkably and went on to solo phase.

Kind of like college. If your TA or professor is a jerk, change class - don't drop out of school!
 
CFIs intervene to prevent accidents regularly. Telling the student that they almost died, however, is unlikely to promote learning.
 
LongRoadBob said:
well, except shouldn’t the instructor be able to see it going bad a little more ahead of time, maybe comment first, correct the student? Why wait until even taking over controls would mean slamming into the ground? Or if it was just wrong, advise “do a go around”?
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That's an excellent point. There's no way to know the sequence which led up to the instructor taking control. In an ideal world, the instructor sees what is happening in advance and either corrects it or, if safety is not compromised, allows the student to make a mistake. But the world is not ideal.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's an excellent point. There's no way to know the sequence which led up to the instructor taking control. In an ideal world, the instructor sees what is happening in advance and either corrects it or, if safety is not compromised, allows the student to make a mistake. But the world is not ideal.
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One time flying into a new airport for me with my instructor I had him yank back the yoke before touchdown. I was convinced I had a good flare, he wasn’t and at the last second yanked back on the yoke. The nose pitched up and we stalled dropping maybe 2-3 feet to the ground. All was well, no damage to the plane and he even apologized afterward saying he thought it was a low flare but realized later it would have been fine.
 
On the subject of CFI anticipation, long time members may recall there is NTSB case law that a CFI is always treated as PIC on an instructional flight. One of those cases involved a landing accident in which the FAA went after the CFI, claiming careless and reckless operation. The NTSB said it was an instructional flight and therefore the CFI was deemed PIC. But, the NTSB decided in favor of the CFI, saying the failure to anticipate the problem (in the context of what happened) was not careless ir reckless:
We have no reason to second-guess respondent's belief that he could not reasonably be expected to anticipate that Mr. Lambon, an apparently confident and experienced commercial pilot, would abort the takeoff at the point when he did. Accordingly, although respondent could have intervened sooner, he had no reason to. In sum, we hold that, under the circumstances of this case, respondent's failure to intervene sooner was not careless.​
FAA v. Strobel
 
In as much as, this was the OP's, pilotstudent, first post, and we have not seen any followup posts nor responses, I suspect a troll.
 
Yeah, my first instructor screamed something about 'nearly snap rolled' and never flew with me again. But he didn't explain what I did wrong, either.
 
I had some thoughts similar to those of @LongRoadBob .

I suspect that throughout much of their training (and for some time beyond), most student pilots are (to use the cliche) "behind the airplane." The are so busy with the discrete task at hand that they delay consideration of the 2 - 4 tasks pending.

Likewise, I suspect that it is the not so much the job of an able instructor to be ahead of the airplane but rather to be AHEAD OF THE STUDENT. Assuming the accuracy of the story told by the OP, it sounds to me like he (the student) got behind the airplane, as is to be expected at any phase of novice flight. However, it also sounds as though the instructor got behind the student, who was then forced to pay an emotional and cognitive price.

To the OP, find an instructor who can stay ahead of you while you learn to stay ahead of the airplane. You owe this to yourself and to whomever may share the sky.

LongRoadBob said:
well, except shouldn’t the instructor be able to see it going bad a little more ahead of time, maybe comment first, correct the student? Why wait until even taking over controls would mean slamming into the ground? Or if it was just wrong, advise “do a go around”?

Also it bothers me a lot that the OP was not given a debriefing that included the things he did wrong. If you read the OP’s post, he’s still left wondering whether he did one of two (or an unknown third) things wrong, that are very different types of mistakes, aren’t they? Students can’t correct if they don’t know what they did wrong for sure.
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The proper instruction at this point is "go around" and if the CFI needs to (depending on how deep he allowed this to go), to add power. Period. Student pilots try to kill me all the time, and because I teach in a twin that's really really true. But so far all have failed. :)

But there are egomaniac CFIs out there, one of whom seriously crippled the aspirations of a student whom I am just about to bet back in the air. That student is now a troubled FO at Skywest. You "take you" with you wherever you go.
 
islandboy said:
...To the OP, find an instructor who can stay ahead of you while you learn to stay ahead of the airplane....
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He wrote, "The pre-solo check was with the chief flight instructor who is not my usual instructor."
 
Domenick said:
In as much as, this was the OP's, pilotstudent, first post, and we have not seen any followup posts nor responses, I suspect a troll.
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There wouldn't have been much point in trolling if he wasn't going to come back and enjoy the results.
 
The debrief should have begun with the instructor asking the student what he thought about the landing in which he had to take control. After getting the student input, the instructor should tell him what he saw and why he had to take control. A soon to solo student needs to have the sense to go around and not try to salvage a bad approach at the last minute. The OP had two problems on his pre solo check--a lack of skill (an unstabilized approach) and a lack of judgement (not initiating a go around). Neither should be fatal to his flying aspirations. Deciding to try to fix being fast, slow, high or low on short final is probably left to the more experienced student. The pre solo student should be thinking go around if he doesn't like some aspect of the approach or landing. The airplane is a very poor classroom and instructors who practice non-stop verbal commentary airborne are mostly talking to themselves.

The instructor could have handled it better. He seemed to have wasted a teaching moment.
 
PaulS said:
Well, we disagree on the judgement part, and actually an instructor is always judging, .
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You might be arguing about semantics. I think @sarangan is just differentiating "evaluating" from "judging," as in, being judgmental. "Judging" to a lot of folks implies not just an evaluation of skills and knowledge, but a comment on the quality of someone as a human being.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Diving at the runway to hit a predetermined touchdown point not only does not work, it can result in serious damage. Diving just increases airspeed, which means either touching down at a high speed...
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I guess you've never flown an ultralight or a biplane... ;)
 
midlifeflyer said:
You might be arguing about semantics. I think @sarangan is just differentiating "evaluating" from "judging," as in, being judgmental. "Judging" to a lot of folks implies not just an evaluation of skills and knowledge, but a comment on the quality of someone as a human being.
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Ah, maybe, I'm thinking judging performance, which I suppose is better described as evaluating.
 
There was a mechanic at the airport I grew up at. He was always using phrases like "if I had not found this problem on your plane, you would be dead", or "if you don't have me fix this, you will crash & kill everybody on your plane". Half the aircraft owners at the airport hated him, and the other half thought he was their hero. I think he really had a "hero" complex and used this terminology to elevate his ego as a self appointed savior.
 
Palmpilot said:
There wouldn't have been much point in trolling if he wasn't going to come back and enjoy the results.
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He could be spectating and not participating. Also note, his message count still remains at 1. He's not participating elsewhere on this site. I may be wrong, but until he returns we'll not not know.
 
Perhaps the check CFI was right and the next check CFI not nearly as quick...?
 
Domenick said:
He could be spectating and not participating. Also note, his message count still remains at 1. He's not participating elsewhere on this site. I may be wrong, but until he returns we'll not not know.
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If he's spectating, he's not logged in, because his "last activity" as shown on his profile page is about a half-hour after his one post.
 
What kind of airplane are you flying that you can’t make a crummy landing on a clear flat open runway without dying?
 
Instructor doesn’t understand the concept of praise in public, criticism in private.

Also troubling that you don’t know what went wrong and they don’t realize that. Tell them.

Also not a fan of not using the botched landing as training to go around. But wasn’t there. It may not have been that bad, and the instructor may have been dropping an ill advised joke thinking you know that. Miscommunication is happening here no matter what.

And in the end, to be the PIC you want to be, you need to make that call. If it’s a mess, go around. Don’t wait for the instructor to call it.

Take initiative and speak with the instructor soon about this. Good teachers or bad, no instructor wants you to not succeed... so bonk them on the head that the training day was wasted by their careless remark. Most will take the hint and get their you know what in order.
 
denverpilot said:
Also not a fan of not using the botched landing as training to go around.
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Also a fan of using the botched landing as training to go around. Lol, took two reads to make sure I had that sentence interpreted correctly. I took the nots out here.

I did a check ride in an SR-22 turbo and the guy surprised me with a go around order on short final..... for the Cirrus it's:

Click ( the togo button for the FMS) I do this on go arounds mainly to keep muscle memory for going missed.
Cram ( go to full power and right rudder to keep the ball centered)
Climb ( pitch to climb attitude, positive rate (the 22 will climb 800 fpm with full flaps), go from full flaps to approach flaps if not there already.
Clean ( once at proper speed go flaps up)
Communicate ( announce go around)

The instructor told me I did well after it was done, I was surprised when he said most of the pilots he checks out flub up go arounds.
 
SC777 said:
As for your guy saying you woulda died....not sure that’s the right tactic to take with a student.
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CFIs in my area are excellent. One had a prop seal blow on downwind years ago and cover the windshield in oil. Student was 15 hours, he explained it was a great learning experience for a power off 180 and never touched the controls. Told the student to use his side windows in the flare ... student greased it on (CFI told me he had finger tips 1 millionth of an inch from the yolk the entire time). If I remember it was new prop seal only and no engine damage as they did the power off and although the windshield was covered, it wasn't all the oil. That student is now flying commercial as a co-pilot and told me last year that was his BEST lesson ...

We got to do full approaches using doors and trim as well as light gun simulation at the Class C ... great experiences. Our flight reviews are INTENSE for engine out scenarios ....
 
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